| England Tonight 10:43 - Jun 6 with 22186 views | DubaiR |
I see Kane expected to start again. What’s the point, he is fit, played the first game. Not wonder Vardy retired, surely tonight give DCL a start, if Kane was to get injured it would weaken our chances significantly.
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| England Tonight on 11:06 - Jun 10 with 1603 views | DannytheR |
| England Tonight on 11:02 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
So black people aren't allowed to boo knee taking because it's racist against themselves
Also they should put up with white saviour types coming along to lecture them on why booing is racist
Got ya |
So a white saviour is a white person who claims to speak on behalf of black people?
Isn't that what you're doing? |  | | |
| England Tonight on 11:09 - Jun 10 with 1585 views | RBlock |
| England Tonight on 10:45 - Jun 10 by wood_hoop |
Even though Souhgate has emphasised so many times they are not siding with the BLM movement, taking the knee' it is seen very much as a gesture is support of the movement.
Below is a paragraph taken from the article I have linked I doubt very much the gestures shown by the England team will be seen by many as anything otherwise.
'BLM has made UK race relations worse
This week marked the one-year anniversary of the police murder of George Floyd. That horrendous killing sparked a wave of Black Lives Matter (BLM) demonstrations last summer, in the US, the UK and around the world. These protesters were credited, by some, with raising important issues around racism. But is the UK now a more socially cohesive, multiracial society as a result of all this? There is mounting evidence to suggest that the answer is no. In fact, BLM agitation, far from being unifying and inclusive, has actually been a divisive force in British society.
In November 2020, a poll by Opinium found that a majority of people — 55 per cent — believed that BLM increased racial tensions. This view was also shared by many ethnic-minority Brits (44 per cent). Even Labour voters were more likely to agree than disagree with the view that BLM has heightened racial tensions in British society.
Fresh data from YouGov similarly suggest that the wider British public have become more negative about the direction of race relations since the wave of BLM protests last year. Whereas one in five people (19 per cent) felt that prior to the protests race relations were deteriorating, that figure has increased to 36 per cent for the period since. Only eight per cent of the general population thinks race relations have improved since the BLM protests. These figures are troubling, but they are not a great surprise.'
https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/05/27/blm-has-made-uk-race-relations-worse/ |
So what?
BLM may have increased racial tensions, by highlighting and drawing attention to continued systemic and institutional racism that is rife in the UK. Do you expect them to allow these racial injustices in this country to continue, in order not to rock the boat? Of course not. It is right that these issues are brought to the fore so that they can be addressed.
The US Civil Rights Movement in the 50s and 60s did not 'improve' race relations, sparking riots, marches, protests and counter-protests. What it did result in was a litany of legislation, judgements, and structures to address institutionalised racism, disenfranchisement, and segregation in the US. A temporary deterioration in race relations is surely a price worth paying for progress. |  | | |
| England Tonight on 11:16 - Jun 10 with 1555 views | ed_83 |
| England Tonight on 11:02 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
So black people aren't allowed to boo knee taking because it's racist against themselves
Also they should put up with white saviour types coming along to lecture them on why booing is racist
Got ya |
You do realise Black people can contribute to racism, don’t you? Same as women being perfectly capable of engaging in sexism. I think if Black supporters are choosing to boo and attack Black players for making their own choices about how they want to confront racism, then yeah that does contribute to wider racist structures. If certain Black people don’t think taking the knee is helpful, then the answer to that is for them to freely choose not to kneel, not for them to police what other people can or can’t do. |  | | |
| England Tonight on 11:19 - Jun 10 with 1518 views | SheffieldHoop |
| England Tonight on 11:06 - Jun 10 by DannytheR |
So a white saviour is a white person who claims to speak on behalf of black people?
Isn't that what you're doing? |
I'm not claiming to speak for anyone
I'm simply pointing out the flaws in it all
If you can't/refuse to recognize them
You're part of the problem
Etc etc |  |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| England Tonight on 11:22 - Jun 10 with 1515 views | SheffieldHoop |
| England Tonight on 11:16 - Jun 10 by ed_83 |
You do realise Black people can contribute to racism, don’t you? Same as women being perfectly capable of engaging in sexism. I think if Black supporters are choosing to boo and attack Black players for making their own choices about how they want to confront racism, then yeah that does contribute to wider racist structures. If certain Black people don’t think taking the knee is helpful, then the answer to that is for them to freely choose not to kneel, not for them to police what other people can or can’t do. |
Mad how quickly "Booing" turns into "Boo and Attack" with you people
"Confront racism"
We literally live on different planets
I live on a planet where black and white people live together
You seem to live on one where they live in opposition to each other | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| England Tonight on 11:22 - Jun 10 with 1541 views | daveB |
I think the whole taking the knee thing should have ended a long time ago, it's become tokenism but if the players want to do it I don't have any issue with it just as if they choose to not do it that is also fine. I get why they want to continue, you only have to see the racial abuse Sterling, Walker and Rashford got after recent final defeats to see this is an issue not going away. I dread to think what they will be sent when England get knocked out
I've watched tons of games in the last year, the only ones where knee taking has had an effect on the game has been when crowds were booing it. Booing it is completely ridiculous, would be like booing through a minutes silence for a player I didn't like.
The problem will remain though. Those that think the gesture of kneeling is supporting some sort of anti racisms Marxists cult or whatever they are worried about will continue to boo no matter how many times they are told that is not what they are intending.
And those who boo will come across as racist no matter how many times they explain their motives for booing.
It's a ridiculous vicious and very avoidable circle we are stuck in. [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 11:27]
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| England Tonight on 12:19 - Jun 10 with 1482 views | Phildo |
| England Tonight on 11:22 - Jun 10 by daveB |
I think the whole taking the knee thing should have ended a long time ago, it's become tokenism but if the players want to do it I don't have any issue with it just as if they choose to not do it that is also fine. I get why they want to continue, you only have to see the racial abuse Sterling, Walker and Rashford got after recent final defeats to see this is an issue not going away. I dread to think what they will be sent when England get knocked out
I've watched tons of games in the last year, the only ones where knee taking has had an effect on the game has been when crowds were booing it. Booing it is completely ridiculous, would be like booing through a minutes silence for a player I didn't like.
The problem will remain though. Those that think the gesture of kneeling is supporting some sort of anti racisms Marxists cult or whatever they are worried about will continue to boo no matter how many times they are told that is not what they are intending.
And those who boo will come across as racist no matter how many times they explain their motives for booing.
It's a ridiculous vicious and very avoidable circle we are stuck in. [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 11:27]
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I felt like this for quite a while and it does become tokenistic if it is indefinite and nothing changes.
I have however come round to thinking it is quite effective - particularly when it comes to a new moment such as the Euros. It keeps the issue at the forefront -the news media have moved on from George Floyd and racial injustice would have slipped off the news agenda by now without it.
There are increasing mental gymnastics having to be performed to argue that things are not and have not been very fair, currently grouping around a 'they are all marxist' arguments or ' keep politics out of sport' often by the same people who get very excited about McLean choosing not to wear a poppy.
Having an argument about it in the public sphere is a good thing because in the end your argument will stand or fall on its strength and however much you try and corner the market with the assurance of your own position society -and increasingly the young will move on with or without you. |  | | |
| England Tonight on 12:30 - Jun 10 with 1451 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| England Tonight on 11:22 - Jun 10 by daveB |
I think the whole taking the knee thing should have ended a long time ago, it's become tokenism but if the players want to do it I don't have any issue with it just as if they choose to not do it that is also fine. I get why they want to continue, you only have to see the racial abuse Sterling, Walker and Rashford got after recent final defeats to see this is an issue not going away. I dread to think what they will be sent when England get knocked out
I've watched tons of games in the last year, the only ones where knee taking has had an effect on the game has been when crowds were booing it. Booing it is completely ridiculous, would be like booing through a minutes silence for a player I didn't like.
The problem will remain though. Those that think the gesture of kneeling is supporting some sort of anti racisms Marxists cult or whatever they are worried about will continue to boo no matter how many times they are told that is not what they are intending.
And those who boo will come across as racist no matter how many times they explain their motives for booing.
It's a ridiculous vicious and very avoidable circle we are stuck in. [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 11:27]
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Good post.
I don’t think (the vast majority) of people who boo the knee taking are racist. Just my instinct.
They are however politically illiterate and cheesed off (as DistortR pointed out).
When angry people don’t have the tools or a obvious target to remedy their anger there becomes a gap in the market for a lightening rod, and sadly it’s the England team’s turn this time, cloaked in a imaginary political bogeyman.
It’s the shit stirrers, sign posters, and dog whistlers that I despise. [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 15:07]
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| England Tonight on 12:45 - Jun 10 with 1424 views | ed_83 |
| England Tonight on 11:22 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
Mad how quickly "Booing" turns into "Boo and Attack" with you people
"Confront racism"
We literally live on different planets
I live on a planet where black and white people live together
You seem to live on one where they live in opposition to each other |
We literally live on a planet where racism exists. The players who are kneeling are doing so in part because of the racism they've directly, personally experienced.
Do you think players like Sterling, Rashford and Walker and lying about the racist abuse they've suffered, or are you saying that they're not entitled to choose how they respond to it? Because it's clearly one of the two.
Either way, maybe "you people" should have a think about why the decision of Black people to respond to racism on their own terms, and the willingness of other people to support them, seems to upset you so much, or why you feel entitled to tell Black people what to do. | | | |
| England Tonight on 12:57 - Jun 10 with 1377 views | SheffieldHoop |
| England Tonight on 12:45 - Jun 10 by ed_83 |
We literally live on a planet where racism exists. The players who are kneeling are doing so in part because of the racism they've directly, personally experienced.
Do you think players like Sterling, Rashford and Walker and lying about the racist abuse they've suffered, or are you saying that they're not entitled to choose how they respond to it? Because it's clearly one of the two.
Either way, maybe "you people" should have a think about why the decision of Black people to respond to racism on their own terms, and the willingness of other people to support them, seems to upset you so much, or why you feel entitled to tell Black people what to do. |
"The decision of Black people to respond to racism on their own terms"
You honestly think black people choose to respond to racist abuse by kneeling in front of whites?
My favourite thing about these conversations is my very black, very Jamaican family generally agree with me, while middle-class weirdos on LFW find it totally offensive. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| England Tonight on 13:13 - Jun 10 with 1370 views | ed_83 |
| England Tonight on 12:57 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
"The decision of Black people to respond to racism on their own terms"
You honestly think black people choose to respond to racist abuse by kneeling in front of whites?
My favourite thing about these conversations is my very black, very Jamaican family generally agree with me, while middle-class weirdos on LFW find it totally offensive. |
Yes, because they're literally saying that's why they're doing it, in addition to showing support for other people who've faced racism.
If you - or your family - don't like it, then fine. You're entitled to that opinion. No-one's forcing you to kneel alongside them. But dictating to other people what their response to racism should be, whether by booing at games or abusing them on social media or whatever else, is messed up.
It is baffling to me that you'd think that affording Black people the respect to peacefully respond to racism in the manner of their choosing is remotely controversial, but clearly I'm not going to convince you otherwise. | | | |
| England Tonight on 13:18 - Jun 10 with 1357 views | DannytheR |
| England Tonight on 12:57 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
"The decision of Black people to respond to racism on their own terms"
You honestly think black people choose to respond to racist abuse by kneeling in front of whites?
My favourite thing about these conversations is my very black, very Jamaican family generally agree with me, while middle-class weirdos on LFW find it totally offensive. |
I don't think anyone is offended by you, even if you might like to think so. A lot of what you say about the cynicism behind the support of big organisations etc for taking the knee is pretty self evident TBH.
I also doubt you know many people on here well enough in real life to make assumptions about their backgrounds one way or the other.
Given the nature of the club, a lot of people here will have grown up in and/or still live in W10, W11 or W12. If you did, and you went to school there, and your kids go to school there, then the idea that we all only know and talk to other white people is pretty weird itself.
(Oh, and only middle-class ones at that.)
You're obviously bright. Maybe you should stop arguing with straw men. | | | |
| England Tonight on 13:26 - Jun 10 with 1322 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| England Tonight on 13:18 - Jun 10 by DannytheR |
I don't think anyone is offended by you, even if you might like to think so. A lot of what you say about the cynicism behind the support of big organisations etc for taking the knee is pretty self evident TBH.
I also doubt you know many people on here well enough in real life to make assumptions about their backgrounds one way or the other.
Given the nature of the club, a lot of people here will have grown up in and/or still live in W10, W11 or W12. If you did, and you went to school there, and your kids go to school there, then the idea that we all only know and talk to other white people is pretty weird itself.
(Oh, and only middle-class ones at that.)
You're obviously bright. Maybe you should stop arguing with straw men. |
My pool cleaner is black and says taking the knee is fine.
She was fishing organic quinoa out of the filter at the time. [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 13:26]
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| England Tonight on 13:46 - Jun 10 with 1253 views | SheffieldHoop |
| England Tonight on 13:18 - Jun 10 by DannytheR |
I don't think anyone is offended by you, even if you might like to think so. A lot of what you say about the cynicism behind the support of big organisations etc for taking the knee is pretty self evident TBH.
I also doubt you know many people on here well enough in real life to make assumptions about their backgrounds one way or the other.
Given the nature of the club, a lot of people here will have grown up in and/or still live in W10, W11 or W12. If you did, and you went to school there, and your kids go to school there, then the idea that we all only know and talk to other white people is pretty weird itself.
(Oh, and only middle-class ones at that.)
You're obviously bright. Maybe you should stop arguing with straw men. |
lol Alright Danny, I think they often are based on the responses I get, but agreed I'm probably not offending posters like Kensal who are clearly just Left-wing WUMs 
This thing about growing up in various multicultural parts of London is part of why the discourse around this is so confusing. Who has grown up in London in the last 30 years and is actually racist? It's impossible, you can't be. So why are we so ready to accept anti-black racism is so prevalent?
Is it just an attempt to gaslight people? [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 13:50]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| England Tonight on 13:55 - Jun 10 with 1234 views | SheffieldHoop |
| England Tonight on 13:13 - Jun 10 by ed_83 |
Yes, because they're literally saying that's why they're doing it, in addition to showing support for other people who've faced racism.
If you - or your family - don't like it, then fine. You're entitled to that opinion. No-one's forcing you to kneel alongside them. But dictating to other people what their response to racism should be, whether by booing at games or abusing them on social media or whatever else, is messed up.
It is baffling to me that you'd think that affording Black people the respect to peacefully respond to racism in the manner of their choosing is remotely controversial, but clearly I'm not going to convince you otherwise. |
Here's the thing Ed. Booing them taking the knee isn't dictating anything to anyone, it's just showing disapproval.
If we're allowed (Thanks btw) to not like taking the knee, why shouldn't we also be free to boo it, without it being called racist? | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| England Tonight on 14:37 - Jun 10 with 1192 views | RBlock |
| England Tonight on 13:46 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
lol Alright Danny, I think they often are based on the responses I get, but agreed I'm probably not offending posters like Kensal who are clearly just Left-wing WUMs
This thing about growing up in various multicultural parts of London is part of why the discourse around this is so confusing. Who has grown up in London in the last 30 years and is actually racist? It's impossible, you can't be. So why are we so ready to accept anti-black racism is so prevalent?
Is it just an attempt to gaslight people? [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 13:50]
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"Who has grown up in London in the last 30 years and is actually racist? It's impossible, you can't be. So why are we so ready to accept anti-black racism is so prevalent?"
I mean notwithstanding the torrent of racial abuse that footballers, politicians, and other public figures receive on anonymised social media, where the racists are able to abuse people with impunity without fear of a nicking or becoming a pariah?
Okay, so that aside, there is the institutional and systemic racism that is ingrained in our society. This is evident in the disproportionate treatment of BAME people by the police and the Courts, the treatment of BAME people by the Home Office, the difference in job opportunities for BAME people, and the fact that those in positions of power, such as judges, politicians, etc are not reflective of the communities they represent.
It's such a nonsense that people get so uppity at being accused of being racist, and take deep personal offence to this. Instead, we need to acknowledge the concerns of those we've wronged, and try and address and improve our behaviour and understanding. It's similar to the unconscious bias argument around football commentary, where BAME players are more likely to be described as strong, powerful, lazy, compared to their white counterparts. It's not an accusation that Martin Tyler is a virulent bigot, but that we all hold unconscious biases that we need to address, in order to live in a fair and equal society. [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 15:13]
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| England Tonight on 14:46 - Jun 10 with 1179 views | ed_83 |
| England Tonight on 13:55 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
Here's the thing Ed. Booing them taking the knee isn't dictating anything to anyone, it's just showing disapproval.
If we're allowed (Thanks btw) to not like taking the knee, why shouldn't we also be free to boo it, without it being called racist? |
Booing isn't just a sign of disapproval though, is it? It's also a sign of disrespect, an attempt to distract from or undermine the thing it's aimed at.
If you can't understand why a predominantly white crowd booing black players as they make a gesture of anti-racist solidarity is disrespectful, antagonistic and racist, then I'm not sure what else I can say to convince you. I'm not outraged or offended by it, or by you, it's just a bit sad. | | | |
| England Tonight on 14:54 - Jun 10 with 1149 views | kensalriser |
I'm delighted to hear that racism is over.
Someone should let Clive know, this could be a career defining scoop. |  |
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| England Tonight on 14:55 - Jun 10 with 1145 views | Konk |
| England Tonight on 14:46 - Jun 10 by ed_83 |
Booing isn't just a sign of disapproval though, is it? It's also a sign of disrespect, an attempt to distract from or undermine the thing it's aimed at.
If you can't understand why a predominantly white crowd booing black players as they make a gesture of anti-racist solidarity is disrespectful, antagonistic and racist, then I'm not sure what else I can say to convince you. I'm not outraged or offended by it, or by you, it's just a bit sad. |
I find some of the words of our National anthem completely demeaning, but I don't stand there booing through it. I just stand in silence for a couple of minutes and then it's done. |  |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| England Tonight on 14:58 - Jun 10 with 1134 views | daveB |
| England Tonight on 13:55 - Jun 10 by SheffieldHoop |
Here's the thing Ed. Booing them taking the knee isn't dictating anything to anyone, it's just showing disapproval.
If we're allowed (Thanks btw) to not like taking the knee, why shouldn't we also be free to boo it, without it being called racist? |
equally why shouldn't the players be free to take the knee without being booed
The players have said they are taking a knee to show solidarity towards the fight against racism so when that gets booed it comes across as racist.
I understand you and many others feel the knee thing has a very different meaning and you are in no way being racist but that is not how it is coming across.
it really is a Monty Pyhton sketch that has come to life, I'm just waiting for Graham Chapmans ghost to walk onto the pitch and say this is all rather silly | | | |
| England Tonight on 15:00 - Jun 10 with 1129 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| England Tonight on 14:55 - Jun 10 by Konk |
I find some of the words of our National anthem completely demeaning, but I don't stand there booing through it. I just stand in silence for a couple of minutes and then it's done. |
My partner has the same attitude to our lovemaking. | | | |
| England Tonight on 15:25 - Jun 10 with 1079 views | SheffieldHoop |
| England Tonight on 14:37 - Jun 10 by RBlock |
"Who has grown up in London in the last 30 years and is actually racist? It's impossible, you can't be. So why are we so ready to accept anti-black racism is so prevalent?"
I mean notwithstanding the torrent of racial abuse that footballers, politicians, and other public figures receive on anonymised social media, where the racists are able to abuse people with impunity without fear of a nicking or becoming a pariah?
Okay, so that aside, there is the institutional and systemic racism that is ingrained in our society. This is evident in the disproportionate treatment of BAME people by the police and the Courts, the treatment of BAME people by the Home Office, the difference in job opportunities for BAME people, and the fact that those in positions of power, such as judges, politicians, etc are not reflective of the communities they represent.
It's such a nonsense that people get so uppity at being accused of being racist, and take deep personal offence to this. Instead, we need to acknowledge the concerns of those we've wronged, and try and address and improve our behaviour and understanding. It's similar to the unconscious bias argument around football commentary, where BAME players are more likely to be described as strong, powerful, lazy, compared to their white counterparts. It's not an accusation that Martin Tyler is a virulent bigot, but that we all hold unconscious biases that we need to address, in order to live in a fair and equal society. [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 15:13]
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If millionaire footballers kneeling in front of working-class kids in Middlesbrough to make a point about structural racism looks like a path to a more fair and equal society to you, then I do wonder. Working-class white kids in Middlesbrough have shit job prospects too. They're not the problem.
Public figures get abused on social media. Not so much random people. Social media abuse does sometimes stray into racism, but fundamentally it comes from people who don't lead particularly happy lives, taking their anger out on those who (apparently, according to their twitter feed and achievements) do. I do think public figures have a responsibility to protect themselves from the dark stuff that comes with web anonymity because you can never actually stop it. Someone will always find a way to remain anonymous online. If we start to prosecute people, it will be at the cost of innocent people being prosecuted for things they've not done.
Blaming all this other stuff on systemic and institutional racism is lazy and far too simple an answer. Categorising all non white people together under the term "BAME" is not really helpful either, that's a huge umbrella. The demographics of the country have changed dramatically over the last 20 years, so to expect all of these institutions, like the courts, to respond overnight is unrealistic.
You're saying people shouldn't get uppity about being called a racist, but then you get uppity about Martin Tyler using certain complimentary adjectives to describe black players? Have you recorded, transcribed, and reported on this to be sure?
I wish people could get their heads around the generational aspect of this. All of this equality will come in time. And it won't be because it was forced by quotas, it will happen naturally, and it should be allowed to. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| England Tonight on 15:31 - Jun 10 with 1059 views | SheffieldHoop |
| England Tonight on 14:58 - Jun 10 by daveB |
equally why shouldn't the players be free to take the knee without being booed
The players have said they are taking a knee to show solidarity towards the fight against racism so when that gets booed it comes across as racist.
I understand you and many others feel the knee thing has a very different meaning and you are in no way being racist but that is not how it is coming across.
it really is a Monty Pyhton sketch that has come to life, I'm just waiting for Graham Chapmans ghost to walk onto the pitch and say this is all rather silly |
Because people are paying their money to be there, and have a right to boo this show of solidarity if they so wish. I went to Germany away with England a few years ago and our National anthem was booed. So what. I didn't then just assume everyone in the ground booing was a fcking nazi.
Maybe they don't agree with the organisation they're showing their solidarity with. I dunno. I cant be arsed anymore. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| England Tonight on 15:37 - Jun 10 with 1044 views | SheffieldHoop |
| England Tonight on 14:51 - Jun 10 by Trom |
" Who has grown up in London in the last 30 years and is actually racist? It's impossible, you can't be"
Try an away game at Millwall and see if you still hold that view |
Most people who go to Millwall for that stuff are from places like Maidstone and Crawley. Not Bermondsey. But a good point. Those people don't do that stuff on the streets though, do they? Only when surrounded by their mates and weirdly understanding stewards at Millwall [Post edited 10 Jun 2021 15:39]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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