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The one thing I am certain of re this vote is that no-one knows for sure what the repercussions economically will be if we pull out. If you listen to the experts it will be better if we stay in, however its all unconvincing. My issue is that after 10 years of Austerity, the services in this country have been cut to the bone, that is services that are needed by us all - not just Immigrants/benefit spongers. We are not in a position to afford the enormous gamble if it all goes t1ts up. I am taking my lead from Ray Winston and gambling responsibly and staying in. If we ever get to situation when everything is adequately funded and horrible 0 hours contracts were abolished ... then maybe it might be worth the risk to pull out. But to do it now is a massive gamble which we just cannot afford to lose.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:31 - Jun 21 with 1842 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:25 - Jun 21 by Mytch_QPR
Greece had the option to leave - they had a referendum before the last big bailout. They chose to borrow heavily, the EU didn't force them to. We would still have sovereign powers - I don't understand why people keep bringing Greece up.
Have a look at my previous post on this thread and take some time to listen, then by all means vote leave.
Greece? They're on the verge of another bailout,why would you want to be shackled to feckless parasites of this magnitude?That's all you're going to be is the guy who chucks your money in the begging bowl....Macedonia,Albania etc. next.Ireland never paid us back a red cent.
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:31 - Jun 21 by TheBlob
Greece? They're on the verge of another bailout,why would you want to be shackled to feckless parasites of this magnitude?That's all you're going to be is the guy who chucks your money in the begging bowl....Macedonia,Albania etc. next.Ireland never paid us back a red cent.
Blob,
This came up last week, and it's incorrect. Ireland has been paying the 7bn loan back on time and in full.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 08:46 - Jun 21 by Mytch_QPR
Anyone still wavering before Thurs? - take a bit of time to listen to this:
Build bridges, not walls.
Well, I'm not wavering because I had to vote by post, so It's already done. But I've just watched the whole video and Michael Duggan makes a very convincing case to remain, using his extensive knowledge and expertise. You can't argue with what he says. However, what he doesn't have anything to say about is, in particular, the damage caused by free movement of labour within the EU and the reason why it's such a big part of the EU's strategy - so big, he says, that if we leave, we won't get a reasonable trading deal with the EU without accepting it.
For the present and the future, the free movement of labour within the EU is part of a true race to the bottom. For many workers, especially for people who do relatively unskilled work, it is a disaster. Whatever the rules designed to mitigate the problem (even where they exist, too few of these seem to be enforced in Britain) the fact remains that poor people who don't have any work in one part of Europe have a right effectively to undercut those elsewhere, provided they are desperate enough to put up with upheaval and unpleasantness. This causes resentment and discontent on all sides, and for good reason. It is an arrangement which constitutes an outrageous disregard for workers' rights, whilst encouraging hard-pressed or unscrupulous employers to do what many specialise in: payment of the lowest possible wage, irrespective of the consequences outside the place of work.
This is why immigration is seen as such a big issue. If we are willing to work, we should all have the right to earn enough to live on in return for the work we do. We will have to deal with the can of worms Brexit opens in order to achieve this (and many other things besides) because the EU is controlled by people with a contempt for democracy, who consider the lives of ordinary people to be worth a fraction of their own.
1
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:55 - Jun 21 with 1720 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:46 - Jun 21 by martincook
Well, I'm not wavering because I had to vote by post, so It's already done. But I've just watched the whole video and Michael Duggan makes a very convincing case to remain, using his extensive knowledge and expertise. You can't argue with what he says. However, what he doesn't have anything to say about is, in particular, the damage caused by free movement of labour within the EU and the reason why it's such a big part of the EU's strategy - so big, he says, that if we leave, we won't get a reasonable trading deal with the EU without accepting it.
For the present and the future, the free movement of labour within the EU is part of a true race to the bottom. For many workers, especially for people who do relatively unskilled work, it is a disaster. Whatever the rules designed to mitigate the problem (even where they exist, too few of these seem to be enforced in Britain) the fact remains that poor people who don't have any work in one part of Europe have a right effectively to undercut those elsewhere, provided they are desperate enough to put up with upheaval and unpleasantness. This causes resentment and discontent on all sides, and for good reason. It is an arrangement which constitutes an outrageous disregard for workers' rights, whilst encouraging hard-pressed or unscrupulous employers to do what many specialise in: payment of the lowest possible wage, irrespective of the consequences outside the place of work.
This is why immigration is seen as such a big issue. If we are willing to work, we should all have the right to earn enough to live on in return for the work we do. We will have to deal with the can of worms Brexit opens in order to achieve this (and many other things besides) because the EU is controlled by people with a contempt for democracy, who consider the lives of ordinary people to be worth a fraction of their own.
Spot on and an absolute scandal that the Unions are backing Remain and this race to the bottom.
2
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:59 - Jun 21 with 1710 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:46 - Jun 21 by martincook
Well, I'm not wavering because I had to vote by post, so It's already done. But I've just watched the whole video and Michael Duggan makes a very convincing case to remain, using his extensive knowledge and expertise. You can't argue with what he says. However, what he doesn't have anything to say about is, in particular, the damage caused by free movement of labour within the EU and the reason why it's such a big part of the EU's strategy - so big, he says, that if we leave, we won't get a reasonable trading deal with the EU without accepting it.
For the present and the future, the free movement of labour within the EU is part of a true race to the bottom. For many workers, especially for people who do relatively unskilled work, it is a disaster. Whatever the rules designed to mitigate the problem (even where they exist, too few of these seem to be enforced in Britain) the fact remains that poor people who don't have any work in one part of Europe have a right effectively to undercut those elsewhere, provided they are desperate enough to put up with upheaval and unpleasantness. This causes resentment and discontent on all sides, and for good reason. It is an arrangement which constitutes an outrageous disregard for workers' rights, whilst encouraging hard-pressed or unscrupulous employers to do what many specialise in: payment of the lowest possible wage, irrespective of the consequences outside the place of work.
This is why immigration is seen as such a big issue. If we are willing to work, we should all have the right to earn enough to live on in return for the work we do. We will have to deal with the can of worms Brexit opens in order to achieve this (and many other things besides) because the EU is controlled by people with a contempt for democracy, who consider the lives of ordinary people to be worth a fraction of their own.
Excuse my ignorance, martin, but I thought we had minimum wage policies to prevent this and the EU were one of the reasons this was introduced?
Or are you referring to self-employed workers?
"Thank you for supporting Queens Park Rangers Steep Staircase"... and I thought I'd signed up for a rollercoaster.
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:59 - Jun 21 by Mytch_QPR
Excuse my ignorance, martin, but I thought we had minimum wage policies to prevent this and the EU were one of the reasons this was introduced?
Or are you referring to self-employed workers?
I think you'll find he's talking about wages in general, particularly in trades and unskilled work.
The minimum wage is a smoke screen. In my industry, no one gets paid as low as the minimum wage, or at least not until recently. What has happened though, is workers within it are being paid the same or less in many cases as they were being paid TWENTY YEARS ago.
This has been happening across many trades, immigrants being prepared to work for the minimum wage or a little above and UK residents, previously on £15 an hour being dragged down to £10 an hour to stay within, more often than not, the only line of work they know.
It's very easy for some Remainers to throw out lines like 'coming over here,taking our jobs' in mocking tones but what I say above is fact. It's not funny, it's serious, UK residents suffering real hardship.
For that reason alone, I will be voting Leave.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:24 - Jun 21 with 1662 views
Brexiters never let the truth get in the way?!?!?!?
I'll counter that one with "Remainers walk around with their eyes wide shut and their ears closed tight"
There's financial disasters in the EU all over - from the ERM to Greece, Spain, Portugal and their economies etc The EU law making machine is a dictatorship of disaster I assume also Remainers do not try to use basic things in the City's of the UK like hospitals, dentists, doctors, the roads, the trains, getting their kids into schools, etc
To LEAVE is a risk but I'm willing to take it as to remain spells a certain and obvious direction of more of the same.
Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:34 - Jun 21 with 1649 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:33 - Jun 20 by derbyhoop
Is that why the Murdoch press want out? Rupert has said that when he wants something from Westminster, they agree to it. If he wants something from Brussels, they don't.
It's simplistic to say there is a division between young and old. I'm 63 and have already voted to Remain. But, I am the son of economic migrants (parents came from Ireland in the 40s), I have lived and worked in the EU, I can speak reasonable French and have a cottage in rural France, where I'm currently living. I don't believe immigration should be anywhere near as big an issue as the threat of an economic shock.
Immigration to the UK probably isnt an issue when viewed from a cottage in "rural" France . FYI The Times is for remain ....
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:35 - Jun 21 with 1648 views
The reason we're in a race to the bottom with wages isn't because of European bureaucrats or political correctness. It's because we've spent 40 years letting the unions be dismantled, so people have no way to protect themselves against their employer.
I'm just hoping no-one using that argument against Europe didn't spend the 80s voting Tory, because Sports Direct and all its kind couldn't have happened without you.
1
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:45 - Jun 21 with 1620 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:35 - Jun 21 by DannytheR
The reason we're in a race to the bottom with wages isn't because of European bureaucrats or political correctness. It's because we've spent 40 years letting the unions be dismantled, so people have no way to protect themselves against their employer.
I'm just hoping no-one using that argument against Europe didn't spend the 80s voting Tory, because Sports Direct and all its kind couldn't have happened without you.
Danny you may have a case there, I don't agree but can see that crushing of unions in such a way would result in that. We do still have strong unions here though
What you've completely ignored is a basic, simple, common denominator which is the same the world over and can be applied to many things -- supply & demand.
Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:45 - Jun 21 with 1623 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:59 - Jun 21 by Mytch_QPR
Excuse my ignorance, martin, but I thought we had minimum wage policies to prevent this and the EU were one of the reasons this was introduced?
Or are you referring to self-employed workers?
Surely if free movement is to work there must be a statutory minimum wage throughout the EU. If as you say they were the driving force behind the minimum wage why is it not enforced EU wide. We are constantly told the problem is not free movement but that this and other governments in this country have not built more houses or invested in the health service and schools etc. Why do not the EU itself pay for this, if they want free movement they should pay to make it work.
[Post edited 21 Jun 2016 10:56]
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:53 - Jun 21 with 1598 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:45 - Jun 21 by Lblock
Danny you may have a case there, I don't agree but can see that crushing of unions in such a way would result in that. We do still have strong unions here though
What you've completely ignored is a basic, simple, common denominator which is the same the world over and can be applied to many things -- supply & demand.
We don't have strong unions here. If we did, you'd see more strikes. But if anyone, anywhere goes on strike (up to and including the doctors you mention in your earlier post), they're immediately called greedy and irresponsible by the media, the government, and millions of people who years ago swallowed the line that the unions were somehow their enemy.
If you're talking about wages with supply and demand, then the supply isn't handed down by God. It comes from employers.
Our whole economic model here is based on the idea employers should be allowed to maximise their profits any way they like - which means people working for them being paid as little as possible.
I'll happily vote for something that changes that. It won't be Brexit though.
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:00 - Jun 21 with 1593 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:55 - Jun 21 by DannytheR
We don't have strong unions here. If we did, you'd see more strikes. But if anyone, anywhere goes on strike (up to and including the doctors you mention in your earlier post), they're immediately called greedy and irresponsible by the media, the government, and millions of people who years ago swallowed the line that the unions were somehow their enemy.
If you're talking about wages with supply and demand, then the supply isn't handed down by God. It comes from employers.
Our whole economic model here is based on the idea employers should be allowed to maximise their profits any way they like - which means people working for them being paid as little as possible.
I'll happily vote for something that changes that. It won't be Brexit though.
"and millions of people who years ago swallowed the line that the unions were somehow their enemy. "
Always the same you know best and it is your duty to protect those that disagree with you from themselves
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:03 - Jun 21 with 1587 views
This is not a remain or leave decision, I am asking a question. Last year Government figures stated that 333,000 immigrants came to the U.K. (Government figures) if this figure continues and it is likely to be higher with the advent of more poorer countries joining, where will they all work and live on arriving here. Add to this the growing number of Illegal immigrants arriving. In 2001 a Home Office report estimated the population of illegal immigrants in the U.K. at 430,000 excluding their U.K. born children. In 2007 the London School of Economics produced an estimate of 670,000. In 2010 Migration watch put the figure at 1.1 million. It seems highly likely that in the following 6 years this number has continued to increase. So add the illegals to the legals and I ask again where will all these people find work, doctors, schools etc ?
[Post edited 21 Jun 2016 11:16]
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:06 - Jun 21 with 1584 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:55 - Jun 21 by DannytheR
We don't have strong unions here. If we did, you'd see more strikes. But if anyone, anywhere goes on strike (up to and including the doctors you mention in your earlier post), they're immediately called greedy and irresponsible by the media, the government, and millions of people who years ago swallowed the line that the unions were somehow their enemy.
If you're talking about wages with supply and demand, then the supply isn't handed down by God. It comes from employers.
Our whole economic model here is based on the idea employers should be allowed to maximise their profits any way they like - which means people working for them being paid as little as possible.
I'll happily vote for something that changes that. It won't be Brexit though.
I agree with everything you have to say about the unions Danny. However once we vote Remain we will unfortunately get to see who the real power behind the EU is. Clue - it isn't The Little People. Do you really think the behemoths of the global corporate and banking world would let a centralised organisation with power over a whole continent run without their influence ensuring their requirements come first?
TTIP etc will cement into law the very things I know you will have opposed all your life.
1
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:32 - Jun 21 with 2196 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:55 - Jun 21 by DannytheR
We don't have strong unions here. If we did, you'd see more strikes. But if anyone, anywhere goes on strike (up to and including the doctors you mention in your earlier post), they're immediately called greedy and irresponsible by the media, the government, and millions of people who years ago swallowed the line that the unions were somehow their enemy.
If you're talking about wages with supply and demand, then the supply isn't handed down by God. It comes from employers.
Our whole economic model here is based on the idea employers should be allowed to maximise their profits any way they like - which means people working for them being paid as little as possible.
I'll happily vote for something that changes that. It won't be Brexit though.
So that's how we judge the strength and success of unions now is it? The number of Strikes?!
Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:45 - Jun 21 with 2175 views
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:25 - Jun 21 by 1BobbyHazell
I agree with everything you have to say about the unions Danny. However once we vote Remain we will unfortunately get to see who the real power behind the EU is. Clue - it isn't The Little People. Do you really think the behemoths of the global corporate and banking world would let a centralised organisation with power over a whole continent run without their influence ensuring their requirements come first?
TTIP etc will cement into law the very things I know you will have opposed all your life.
But TTIP or something like it will come in anyway. When Johnson and Gove were still bothering to present an economic case for Brexit, increasing our economic ties to America ("opening ourselves up") was a huge part of it. As recently as the year before last, Johnson was calling TTIP "Churchillian" and saying anyone who didn't want it was talking "left wing mumbo jumbo."
Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:32 - Jun 21 by Lblock
So that's how we judge the strength and success of unions now is it? The number of Strikes?!
Unions have to be able to call strikes, or they lose a huge part of their power to negotiate. Once they lose that power, you have your race to the bottom.
What do you think Mike Ashley is more afraid of? Brexit, or having to recognise Unite at the Sports Direct warehouse?
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Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:53 - Jun 21 with 2157 views
When we joined the EU we were so sh!t that quite a lot of Europe didn't want us to join. Sh!t workers and sh!t bosses. Could we run ourselves then? Could we feck.
This is why the most of the world is looking at us as though we are crazy even thinking about going it alone. They see us for what we are. We see ourselves as what we would like to be.
The football equivalent is how we always imagine we're right up there capable of beating the best - and then the tournament starts and we're bang average.
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