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I was 22 in 1975, and I voted "No". This was based on my political heroes Michael Foot and Tony Benn warning against the dangers of entering the EU. After that, I softened my opposition somewhat. I like the fact that I can now cross most European borders without being searched and showing my passport, and I have since acquired a German wife, who is free to live and work in the UK (although she is not allowed to vote here, despite having paid UK taxes for 25 years). But, to be honest, I am thinking of voting "Out". What do other posters on here think?
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:31 - Feb 21 with 2979 views
Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:16 - Feb 21 by derbyhoop
Probably. But on what terms? And how long will it take (see my comments re Greenland)?
Can we really cope with the uncertainty while we try to re-establish a position we haven't had for 40 years.
I think Brexit is a real possibility, but it is very high risk. I haven't yet found anybody from the Out campaign that can paint a picture of what the UK would be like outside. Lots of hopes that we can do deals (with irate ex partners) and that nothing will change, in trade terms.
I guess my take differs from many on here because I did take advantage of freedom of movement to go and work in other EU countries; I spent 6 months living in France and speak enough french to gain an understanding of how we are viewed.
"I guess my take differs from many on here because I did take advantage of freedom of movement to go and work in other EU countries; I spent 6 months living in France and speak enough french to gain an understanding of how we are viewed."
Yeah I see where you're coming from derby.
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:31 - Feb 21 with 2976 views
You have to laugh. I've just seen a snippet of Call me Dave sky news saying "If Boris really cares about getting things done in our world, then the EU is one of the ways we get them done" Yes Call me we can see the influence we have in the EU, with the "stupendous" terms you've hacked out of the rest of em. As for the collective getting things done .....well economic migrants are over running most european countries , so that's going well
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:27 - Feb 21 with 2923 views
It's really interesting reading views on this from fellow lfw and R's fans. Some are deluded by so called EU grants which are just a means of them giving back a small part of what we pay in. Why should we pay for a bloated European bureaucracy to set rules and pass laws we don't want and have a minority say in? As far as I can tell the EU is a corrupt anti-democratic organisation and the grovelling Cameron has done has just demonstrated the growing influence of Eastern Europe which does not align with our interests. I feel if we do vote to leave we may not be the last country to do it and it may well lead to a new more efficient type of alliance which would be better than the EU. It seems there will be more problems with uncontrolled immigration if countries like Turkey join. I can't really see the benefit to us of creating a borderless Europe and it seems several other countries are starting to realise it's not in their interest either. Some countries see Europe becoming one integrated state with the same laws, language and customs and are fighting to take it in that direction, but I don't see that being possible or desirable. When we voted to join Europe it was at that time a much less controlling association. Look what has become since, despite our opposition. Those who feel they want to stay in should consider not what it is now, but what it will become irrespective of what Britain wants. If the Scots don't agree and want out of the UK but in the EU then we we should let them go their own way. It seems they voted overwhelmingly for their nationlists so really want out of the UK anyway and it wouldn't be the first time they aligned with Europe against us.
Who's Next?
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:27 - Feb 21 with 2829 views
Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 11:53 - Feb 21 by HollowayRanger
Just wait till turkey joins the eu
the river of migration will become a flood then and a totally open door from middle east
I don't think many people want Turkey to join the EU out of the kindness of their hearts, they just see a reltiavely young population of 75m as a solution to the Europe's increasingly lop-sided age demographic. That would be one solution to that, that's all. Not that it is very likely in the future with Erdogan's near dictatorship so i wouldn't worry
“The thing about football - the important thing about football - is that it is not just about football.â€
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:32 - Feb 21 with 2824 views
i think i'm actually done talking anymore about the EU. i'll vote stay but only because the grass isn't any greener. both fields are still strewn with cow sh*t. Every time I delve into politics I come out even more jaded and apathetic than I came in. I'm basically f*cked.
[Post edited 21 Feb 2016 15:33]
“The thing about football - the important thing about football - is that it is not just about football.â€
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:36 - Feb 21 with 2822 views
Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 21:57 - Feb 20 by essextaxiboy
Last one from me today.
Gove(I know I know) said this and it sums it up for me
“We are the world’s fifth largest economy, with the best armed forces of any nation, more Nobel prizes than any European country and more world-leading universities than any European country.
“Our economy is more dynamic than the Eurozone, we have the most attractive capital city on the globe, the greatest ‘soft power’ and global influence of any state, and a leadership role in Nato and the UN. Are we really too small, too weak and too powerless to make a success of self-rule?”
No mention of immigration, just personal responsibility and aspiration.
[Post edited 20 Feb 2016 21:59]
'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!'
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:41 - Feb 21 with 2821 views
Having lived in several places around the world, I am a firm believer that Europe is the best place on the planet and Europeans, have a culture and depth that is hard to beat.
Anything that brings us together is a good thing and there is no doubt for me, that just as we play an important role in Europe, it has played a similar role for us. The EU was set up out of the BeNeLux arrangement and was meant to breakdown barriers and facilitate easier trade. But look what its become and consider what it wishes to become.
I like the diverse nature of Europe and her peoples, I fear the EU will merely homogenise it over time.
The internal EU migration thing is a bit of a smokescreen. EU migrants being younger and skilled are not a drain, compared to older less-skilled migrants from elsewhere. This being said, if migrant workers upped and left tomorrow, the UK would collapse.
What I have seen of the EU in terms of overseas development work has been mightily unimpressive overall and wasteful. If this is indicative of how the EU operates in other areas, then we are right to worry about it.
The EU like organisations like the UN, civil service, establishment even, merely become a self-serving bureaucracy and if there is one thing we don't need, is more bureaucracy seeking to justify and protect itself. I don't want to be governed by unelected dullards and neither would I wish this country to govern our European cousins. The time it takes to develop European policy is ridiculous, just look at the calamity that is the Common Fisheries Policy. Bottom line, the EU hasn't really impressed me!
Don't kid yourself that Europeans love the EU. I spent last year in France and there were plenty of locals querying the EU and its motives and while some say we're being narrow-minded, some will agree that what the UK is saying is in line with the concerns they also have.
I read a poster saying if we stay in, Germany wins Europe. The thing is with this type of statement, many who say such things are little Englanders behind the 'leave' campaigns and who are as problematic as the EU. However, that's not to say that they and those who are more open-minded and feel this way, are not right! I have heard from an EU official how Germany pushed for one of the succession nations to join despite concerns raised in the EU's own assessment report.
EU economic policy is by no means popular in countries like Greece and the euro policies have caused untold problems. We have avoided that, albeit that we have our own home-made economic problems. But the way the euro was forced through should show us that 'sense' over a frantic desire to create a US of Europe seems to be a motive because a country like Greece should never have been allowed into it.
I am all for better understanding, but the level of integration that will come concerns me. If we vote out, then I have absolutely no doubt that the EU will mirror what America does when it loses a war, make the victor pay!
The leave campaign is however, headed by the type of people I'd frankly move to Europe to avoid! I am not sure what else Cameron could have realistically come back with in view of 27 countries being largely against us. The bigger concern is this has potential to leave fault lines in the UK regardless of whether we stay or leave.
I'm more tempted to vote out. But the problem with this, is that I don't have confidence in the people/politicians punting for out. I also have no confidence that Europe will not seek reprisals and if these are the reasons I vote to remain, then this is sorry state of affairs.
'Always In Motion' by John Honney available on amazon.co.uk
Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:56 - Feb 21 by HollowayRanger
Scottish vote for independence was very close
now all those who wanted independence have a tough choice
a. vote to stay in Europe and union b. vote out and good chance of 2nd vote for independence and then I guess another vote to vote to stay in europe
Can somebody explain the position the SNP are in. They want independence primarily because they do not want to be ruled by a body they did not vote for (of course that applies to a labour government now as well as conservatives) but are not worried by being ruled by a body in Brussels they did not vote for
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:49 - Feb 21 with 2756 views
Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:41 - Feb 21 by PlanetHonneywood
Having lived in several places around the world, I am a firm believer that Europe is the best place on the planet and Europeans, have a culture and depth that is hard to beat.
Anything that brings us together is a good thing and there is no doubt for me, that just as we play an important role in Europe, it has played a similar role for us. The EU was set up out of the BeNeLux arrangement and was meant to breakdown barriers and facilitate easier trade. But look what its become and consider what it wishes to become.
I like the diverse nature of Europe and her peoples, I fear the EU will merely homogenise it over time.
The internal EU migration thing is a bit of a smokescreen. EU migrants being younger and skilled are not a drain, compared to older less-skilled migrants from elsewhere. This being said, if migrant workers upped and left tomorrow, the UK would collapse.
What I have seen of the EU in terms of overseas development work has been mightily unimpressive overall and wasteful. If this is indicative of how the EU operates in other areas, then we are right to worry about it.
The EU like organisations like the UN, civil service, establishment even, merely become a self-serving bureaucracy and if there is one thing we don't need, is more bureaucracy seeking to justify and protect itself. I don't want to be governed by unelected dullards and neither would I wish this country to govern our European cousins. The time it takes to develop European policy is ridiculous, just look at the calamity that is the Common Fisheries Policy. Bottom line, the EU hasn't really impressed me!
Don't kid yourself that Europeans love the EU. I spent last year in France and there were plenty of locals querying the EU and its motives and while some say we're being narrow-minded, some will agree that what the UK is saying is in line with the concerns they also have.
I read a poster saying if we stay in, Germany wins Europe. The thing is with this type of statement, many who say such things are little Englanders behind the 'leave' campaigns and who are as problematic as the EU. However, that's not to say that they and those who are more open-minded and feel this way, are not right! I have heard from an EU official how Germany pushed for one of the succession nations to join despite concerns raised in the EU's own assessment report.
EU economic policy is by no means popular in countries like Greece and the euro policies have caused untold problems. We have avoided that, albeit that we have our own home-made economic problems. But the way the euro was forced through should show us that 'sense' over a frantic desire to create a US of Europe seems to be a motive because a country like Greece should never have been allowed into it.
I am all for better understanding, but the level of integration that will come concerns me. If we vote out, then I have absolutely no doubt that the EU will mirror what America does when it loses a war, make the victor pay!
The leave campaign is however, headed by the type of people I'd frankly move to Europe to avoid! I am not sure what else Cameron could have realistically come back with in view of 27 countries being largely against us. The bigger concern is this has potential to leave fault lines in the UK regardless of whether we stay or leave.
I'm more tempted to vote out. But the problem with this, is that I don't have confidence in the people/politicians punting for out. I also have no confidence that Europe will not seek reprisals and if these are the reasons I vote to remain, then this is sorry state of affairs.
I think you said all you need to when you talked about Cameron's negotiations."27 countries being largely against us". I just think we should be directed by our government and not those of 27 other countries and that'll never be the case while we're "in".
Furthermore, any government that thinks it's ok to spend £200 million to move its HQ every six months quite frankly doesn't desrve to be put in charge of a ice cream van let alone the running of 28 countries.
TPFKA Stans_Left_Foot
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 17:17 - Feb 21 with 2703 views
Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:56 - Feb 21 by HollowayRanger
Scottish vote for independence was very close
now all those who wanted independence have a tough choice
a. vote to stay in Europe and union b. vote out and good chance of 2nd vote for independence and then I guess another vote to vote to stay in europe
For me as a patriotic Englishman I'm hoping for a double win - vote out of the EU and then the Jocks can vote again and hopefully they can gain independence and in time that will lead to an English Parliament.
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 17:18 - Feb 21 with 2704 views
I wouldn't want Boris or Gove running anything important but they are great campaigners whereas IDS is a hopeless campaigner but a pretty capable minister - the three of them together will cause a lot of problems for the 'stay in' group, which itself seems to be deficient in both brain power and frontage.
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 17:47 - Feb 21 with 2654 views
Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 11:42 - Feb 21 by derbyhoop
IF net migration continued at that rate, then it would lead to fundamental and rapid changes in the way of life in the UK. However, should the Syrian crisis be resolved OR everybody except Assad has fled the region, immigration should fall markedly.
And, if that is your main issue, why don't you ask about the 300,000 migrants from outside the EU last year?
Incidentally, I don't think anybody has a clear idea of how things will change over the next 10 years, although remaining in the EU, IMHO, Iis far less risky. With all its faults.
Why don't I ask about the 300000 from outside the EU last year? Because I'm talking about the EU that's why.
Fair enough if you think staying in is less risky. My view is that they are keeping some cards up their sleeves so there's nothing to be lost through putting down the 'out' card. I doubt that they will stack if we do that and if they do stack and treat us like shit then does even that make it such a bad decision?
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 17:55 - Feb 21 with 2637 views
From June 23rd 2016, the daily St Pancras to Brussels Gravy train service may be discontinued.
This service has proved not fit for purpose, and has never delivered on time.
The reason is thought to be....'Wet Fifty Pound Notes' on the line.
A spokesperson for the EU stated......(in a European accent stylee)
'We're surprised they didn't rumble us years ago..... Still, I suppose you can't fool all of the people all of the time.... But make me right.....we've had a right good drink out of them over the past 40 years.'
Adieu Abschied Despedida Addio
Be lucky.
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 18:05 - Feb 21 with 2606 views
A couple of things have made me question my previous support for the EU. First was Neil Kinnock's 2003 cover-up of a £5 billion budget fraud - and sacking and vilification of the auditor who was unlucky enough to uncover it. Second was when Baroness Ashton - an unelected bureaucrat, and previously Head of Hertfordshire Health Trust - turned up in a headscarf in Iran, described as "EU Foreign Minister". (On retirement Ashton received a pay-off of £400,000, to help her survive on her £61,000 pension). Not only had this woman never stood for election, but nobody in the UK had even heard of her - yet there she was, supposedly representing us before the World.
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 18:07 - Feb 21 with 2601 views
Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 18:05 - Feb 21 by HollowayRanger
the Indians did fight for us in ww2 as we had agreed to give them independence afterwards
something we're trying to do now with the out vote
yeah thats right, they did fight for us in the 2nd world war, im not sure a million died though, and it certainly wasnt for an "EU project ".
After Vichy camerons fluffing , up steps Hardcore Stud Boris 'Babyface' Johnson,The political John Holmes, Jacked up on Nandrolone and spanish fly to slip Merkel a 9" length of British prime beef.
put that in your pipe and f ucking well smoke it Merkel !
"The monkey is never dead, Dealer. The monkey never dies. When you kick him off, he just hides in a corner, waiting his turn".
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 19:17 - Feb 21 with 2519 views
I`m a fairly engaged and well-informed sort of chap, and though my instinct (as a sort of liberal internationalist) is to vote to stay in, I really have no idea what the genuine consequences of exit might be. I look forward to reading all the entries here when I have more time. It seems to me that there is way too much rhetorical, metaphorical and emotive language used when discussing this issue,however; it would be useful for someone to produce a fairly objective, practical pros and cons list so people can make a rational decision. Incidentally, I have long thought the migration issue could be seen very differently if the advantages to Brits of being able to live anywhere in Europe were promoted a bit more.
[Post edited 21 Feb 2016 20:49]
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Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 19:26 - Feb 21 with 2507 views
What gets me, is talk over the past few years of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland having separate Parliaments/ Assemblies ect, but the Left seem to want English Regions. They seen to want to break England up because they simply hate anything that is English and its very un-PC to like England. Even Alex Salmond went to Carlisle to chat to locals during the Scottish Independence campaign. Why would he do that? its in England. I suppose he was trying to get them onside with a view to a Regional breakaway future split. The sooner we have an English Parliament the better. After all, like they say down at the Den. " No one likes us!!....We don't care!".
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