| When will this stop? on 23:25 - Aug 1 with 2699 views | Nigeriamark |
| When will this stop? on 21:34 - Aug 1 by R17ALE |
Mark is an alright bloke D_Alien to be fair, but he is ham-strung by not seeing what the likes of me and you see on a daily basis in Rochdale, which makes his earlier "tiny proportion" remark to him seem correct, but it is a red rag to a bull comment to those of us who live here.
Recently I've been working in Rochdale, and driving around really opens your eyes. Most/many people do not appear to be loyal British subjects. Most/many of them will be perfectly decent folk, but some will be proper wrong'uns.
My only Muslim mate in Rochdale has suffered tremendously at the hands of his 'brothers'. He actually used to watch Dale until he was hounded out of it by the elders. His sister was beaten up because she was too pale. And he is forbidden to try and find a true love here as he is the first born male and therefore has to enter an arranged marriage. It's a cruel life and we Brits take our freedom for granted. Whenever I see him in Asda I always catch up with him, usually whilst waiting to be served after someone has jumped the queue!
And yet this is what some call moderate!
It's bloody barbaric in my view! [Post edited 1 Aug 2015 21:46]
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Seems to be 2 discussions here now.
1. The treatment of white girls by asian men - This is the conversation I thought I was involved in. I agree with a lot of what you both say even if some is Rochdale specific or uses single examples rather than the whole picture ( i.e how many abusive asian men v white men etc ). My main difference of opinion is not that it happens but that I think it is less prevalent overall and that culture is only 1 factor.i.e that it is mainly individual men of all walks with different trigger factors leading them to do it. As mentioned if someone does the stats including identifying the cause then 1 would accept whatever comes out of them. Newspaper stories and individual cases can be found across the board - Look up the Sydney Cook gang and reports of his victims ( slightly off topic and a bit old but disgusting sex crimes against children non the less)
2. The treatment of muslim women by muslim men or families - agree with all your examples even though some can be found in other ethnic circles as your Hindu one suggests ( burning with cigarettes, physical violence to women for control etc). I do come to Rochdale quite a lot but am not as in touch as you. However I would still want to see the stats on some of the violence you mention ( e.g prevalence by ethnic group). However agreed that there are some extreme issues that are specific to some muslim men especially when in a non muslim country . Clearly female genital mutilation forced marriages are not across all cultures and need stamping out - I am all for it
I think points 1 & 2 are different arguments with just a little overlap. 2nd point certainly has muslim specific violence against women issues but I am afraid I still feel pint 1 is more general wether I live in Rochdale or not. And as pointed out when you have had a grooming gang actually in operation in your town I do understand the sensitivity as well even if i don't live there any more |  | |  |
| When will this stop? on 23:28 - Aug 1 with 2693 views | howy10 |
| When will this stop? on 17:13 - Aug 1 by R17ALE |
Even though the debate is reasonable, and in general I think we're all in agreement to a point that child abuse and terrorism are vile, it is inescapable that some of the worst cases carried out on our island are done by Muslims who don't give a shit about our culture.
You live in a Muslim country so won't see the clash of culture that exists over here. And it's got a lot worse in the 20 years you've been exiled. I'm not going to list examples of which there are many, but to suggest English parents leave their daughters at greater risk of grooming by letting them out at night is probably true, but should a 14 year old girl going out with a friend to the pictures and having a crafty cider in town come with the risk of being groomed by an Asian? It's not right to lock up your kids to prevent this risk.
And yes there's good and bad in every walk of life, of course there is, but some Muslims view our girls as white trash and fair game, whereas their own daughters, I expect, are pardoned from being subjected to this exploitation. This isn't a rant, it's the cold, hard truth and to shy away from confronting it is exactly what the overwhelming majority of British Muslims do with ISIS and it's simply not right! |
Well said, especially the part about when Isis commit their daily barbaric slaughter of fellow humans, I don't see many Muslims taking to the streets in protest against them. Certainly not in Rochdale. Why? |  | | |
| When will this stop? on 02:01 - Aug 2 with 2622 views | joecooke |
30 odd years ago i remember being filmed by of all people John Cravens Newsround!,who were filming about Christian assemblies.At the time i was at Matthew Moss and it was a multi cultural environment.
As an 11 year old i was a bit confused,obviously i flicked the v's at the camera( which my mum seen and gave me a crack) as it panned across.
I was still getting my head round prayer rooms and the furore of why our assemblies were in the news.
Looking back i think that we should have stood firm with the " when in rome stance"
We didn't and as far as i can see 30 years later,we have made little or no progress with regard too integration with the Pakistani community. |  |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 03:18 - Aug 2 with 2610 views | Nigeriamark |
| When will this stop? on 02:01 - Aug 2 by joecooke |
30 odd years ago i remember being filmed by of all people John Cravens Newsround!,who were filming about Christian assemblies.At the time i was at Matthew Moss and it was a multi cultural environment.
As an 11 year old i was a bit confused,obviously i flicked the v's at the camera( which my mum seen and gave me a crack) as it panned across.
I was still getting my head round prayer rooms and the furore of why our assemblies were in the news.
Looking back i think that we should have stood firm with the " when in rome stance"
We didn't and as far as i can see 30 years later,we have made little or no progress with regard too integration with the Pakistani community. |
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| When will this stop? on 03:36 - Aug 2 with 2605 views | joecooke |
and? still a good crack in lagos! [Post edited 2 Aug 2015 3:49]
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| When will this stop? on 07:47 - Aug 2 with 2570 views | Nigeriamark |
| When will this stop? on 03:36 - Aug 2 by joecooke |
and? still a good crack in lagos! [Post edited 2 Aug 2015 3:49]
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Sorry Joe, Don't know where my post went!!!
In essence it said 100% agree regarding the need for integration and effort required. Also that if you chose to move to a new country, although both sides should try to integrate, it is more for the person coming in to expect their life to change than the local population.-
As a foreigner myself I have tried everywhere I have been to localise a bit and it's not so easy, but did OK in some places and not at well in some . However it's the effort that counts
As for Lagos - Loved it when I lived there in 2001 - 2003, Wife hated every second !!. Went back visiting in 2009 and 2010 - What aa change. Lot of foreign investment (esp from South africa), cinemas, hotels, infrastructure. Even a Nando's but I believe it has since shut. Feels a lot safer but need to be aware, but still very corrupt. If you know Lagos I believe Pat's bar is still going despite being robbed by armed thieves every now and then !! | | | |
| When will this stop? on 09:29 - Aug 2 with 2521 views | moth5368 |
| When will this stop? on 21:34 - Aug 1 by R17ALE |
Mark is an alright bloke D_Alien to be fair, but he is ham-strung by not seeing what the likes of me and you see on a daily basis in Rochdale, which makes his earlier "tiny proportion" remark to him seem correct, but it is a red rag to a bull comment to those of us who live here.
Recently I've been working in Rochdale, and driving around really opens your eyes. Most/many people do not appear to be loyal British subjects. Most/many of them will be perfectly decent folk, but some will be proper wrong'uns.
My only Muslim mate in Rochdale has suffered tremendously at the hands of his 'brothers'. He actually used to watch Dale until he was hounded out of it by the elders. His sister was beaten up because she was too pale. And he is forbidden to try and find a true love here as he is the first born male and therefore has to enter an arranged marriage. It's a cruel life and we Brits take our freedom for granted. Whenever I see him in Asda I always catch up with him, usually whilst waiting to be served after someone has jumped the queue!
And yet this is what some call moderate!
It's bloody barbaric in my view! [Post edited 1 Aug 2015 21:46]
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"Most/many people do not appear to be loyal British subjects"
Most people, most Asian people? What do you want, Union Jack t-shirts, flag waving, Morris dancing in the streets??. [Post edited 2 Aug 2015 9:29]
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| When will this stop? on 11:55 - Aug 2 with 2431 views | 1mark1 |
| When will this stop? on 09:29 - Aug 2 by moth5368 |
"Most/many people do not appear to be loyal British subjects"
Most people, most Asian people? What do you want, Union Jack t-shirts, flag waving, Morris dancing in the streets??. [Post edited 2 Aug 2015 9:29]
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The thing is, would we want people either in Union Jack t shirts etc or England t shirts ? Which? 
[Post edited 2 Aug 2015 18:08]
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| When will this stop? on 16:42 - Aug 2 with 2346 views | 1mark1 |
| When will this stop? on 16:34 - Aug 2 by 49thseason |
yes - I would. But then I don't suffer from the national self-loathing so beloved of the Left. |
There we go again, another idiot trying to make out us left wingers don't love their country just as much as any one else. Very few people wear either an England t-shirt or British t-shirt, or fly a fag from their car all the time, or maybe wear Union Jack boxers. Many people dislike something about out country, are they all left wingers and or self loathing of our country?
I suppose you just love and support EVERYTHING about our great country, don't you? ?
And are you always wearing something with a Union flag on or England flag? (maybe a pair of Union flag nickers) [Post edited 2 Aug 2015 16:51]
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| When will this stop? on 17:32 - Aug 2 with 2294 views | 49thseason |
"I suppose you just love and support EVERYTHING about our great country, don't you? ? "
Well if the choice is either to support my country or to apologise for everything then I guess supporting is my natural position. What some people don't seem to ever understand is that sometimes it's necessary TO MAKE DECISIONS. Sometimes they will be right and sometimes wrong but if the decisions were made for the right reasons at the time, then there is no point in trying to delve back into history to try and second guess the reasons why particular decisions were made because you will never be able to replicate the mood, the urgency or the available information at the point at which a decision was made. Hence I am not big on apologies.
Inevitably mistakes have been made and will continue to be made - should we apologise for them all? Probably not. Equally should we celebrate the correct decisions? Certainly. That's what leadership is about. That's why Britain is a world leader. I don't care if others dislike our success , let them get on with taking the decisions they think are right for their countries. I know we will never win Eurovison again, but how many downloads do they sell in Estonia or Croatia? And why does half the globe seem to want to come and live here?
BTW I have an IQ of 137, have run several successful businesses, sold British products all over the world including India, China, Russia and the Middle East. and retired at 59 so hardly an idiot! Apologies if the "Leftie" description touched a nerve. |  | | |
| When will this stop? on 17:54 - Aug 2 with 2263 views | howy10 |
Yes! Let's fly the national flag from every building and be proud. Like every other county in the world! (except us!). [Post edited 2 Aug 2015 17:59]
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| When will this stop? on 17:58 - Aug 2 with 2251 views | 1mark1 |
| When will this stop? on 17:32 - Aug 2 by 49thseason |
"I suppose you just love and support EVERYTHING about our great country, don't you? ? "
Well if the choice is either to support my country or to apologise for everything then I guess supporting is my natural position. What some people don't seem to ever understand is that sometimes it's necessary TO MAKE DECISIONS. Sometimes they will be right and sometimes wrong but if the decisions were made for the right reasons at the time, then there is no point in trying to delve back into history to try and second guess the reasons why particular decisions were made because you will never be able to replicate the mood, the urgency or the available information at the point at which a decision was made. Hence I am not big on apologies.
Inevitably mistakes have been made and will continue to be made - should we apologise for them all? Probably not. Equally should we celebrate the correct decisions? Certainly. That's what leadership is about. That's why Britain is a world leader. I don't care if others dislike our success , let them get on with taking the decisions they think are right for their countries. I know we will never win Eurovison again, but how many downloads do they sell in Estonia or Croatia? And why does half the globe seem to want to come and live here?
BTW I have an IQ of 137, have run several successful businesses, sold British products all over the world including India, China, Russia and the Middle East. and retired at 59 so hardly an idiot! Apologies if the "Leftie" description touched a nerve. |
And what makes you think that your position is any different than my or others positions? This thread isn't about whether or not this country makes the right decision, maybe you are confused. No one on here has said that the country should not make decisions, but when we do make a decision that is wrong in someone's view, that person has every right to say so. For your information, I believe this country leads the way in music, and the arts in general as well as culture, sports and near if not the top in science, and in many things.
Just because people run successful businesses and have an high IQ, does not mean they cannot be an idiot, like when trying to say all of us lefties are not patriotic.
And it was the lefties that were in charge when after the war, the country began to make it's fantastic recovery after World War 2, building the NHS, Council Housing, etc, etc. And lets not forget, even when the lefties lost power, the Tories continued with most of those policies, because they realised that there had to be a lot of state intervention to grow the economy and the country. So yes I am Proud to be a leftie, and will never hide that fact. I am a Green Socialist, which is what I described myself in my General and local election literature and social media.
What's your politics? I will guess Euro skeptic, right wing, Tory. If I am wrong please let me know. | |
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| When will this stop? on 18:02 - Aug 2 with 2241 views | 1mark1 |
| When will this stop? on 16:34 - Aug 2 by 49thseason |
yes - I would. But then I don't suffer from the national self-loathing so beloved of the Left. |
Which, England colours/flag or GB colours/flag ? | |
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| When will this stop? on 18:04 - Aug 2 with 2236 views | 1mark1 |
| When will this stop? on 17:54 - Aug 2 by howy10 |
Yes! Let's fly the national flag from every building and be proud. Like every other county in the world! (except us!). [Post edited 2 Aug 2015 17:59]
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British or English? And what about people, should we all be wearing British or English colours, if so which? | |
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| When will this stop? on 20:29 - Aug 2 with 2158 views | mingthemerciless |
| When will this stop? on 17:32 - Aug 2 by 49thseason |
"I suppose you just love and support EVERYTHING about our great country, don't you? ? "
Well if the choice is either to support my country or to apologise for everything then I guess supporting is my natural position. What some people don't seem to ever understand is that sometimes it's necessary TO MAKE DECISIONS. Sometimes they will be right and sometimes wrong but if the decisions were made for the right reasons at the time, then there is no point in trying to delve back into history to try and second guess the reasons why particular decisions were made because you will never be able to replicate the mood, the urgency or the available information at the point at which a decision was made. Hence I am not big on apologies.
Inevitably mistakes have been made and will continue to be made - should we apologise for them all? Probably not. Equally should we celebrate the correct decisions? Certainly. That's what leadership is about. That's why Britain is a world leader. I don't care if others dislike our success , let them get on with taking the decisions they think are right for their countries. I know we will never win Eurovison again, but how many downloads do they sell in Estonia or Croatia? And why does half the globe seem to want to come and live here?
BTW I have an IQ of 137, have run several successful businesses, sold British products all over the world including India, China, Russia and the Middle East. and retired at 59 so hardly an idiot! Apologies if the "Leftie" description touched a nerve. |
" Britain is a World Leader ", at what ? | | | |
| When will this stop? on 20:56 - Aug 2 with 2135 views | D_Alien |
| When will this stop? on 20:29 - Aug 2 by mingthemerciless |
" Britain is a World Leader ", at what ? |
Putting ourselves down? |  |
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| When will this stop? on 21:08 - Aug 2 with 2118 views | nordenblue |
| When will this stop? on 20:29 - Aug 2 by mingthemerciless |
" Britain is a World Leader ", at what ? |
Retail,online retail too [Post edited 2 Aug 2015 21:09]
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| When will this stop? on 21:08 - Aug 2 with 2115 views | TalkingSutty |
| When will this stop? on 20:29 - Aug 2 by mingthemerciless |
" Britain is a World Leader ", at what ? |
Not a lot, but it's still a great place to live. England is sports mad, in general we enjoy a good standard of living and the UK is steeped in history and blessed with magnificent scenery and coast line. The Llyn Peninsula being my particular favourite.
Contrary to popular belief the NHS is still the envy of the world and the jewel in the crown, you appreciate that when you need it. Compared to other countries it's a safe place to live, unemployment is relatively low and with a bit of luck we might win the Ashes back next week.
We also have the Royal Family, I bloody love the Royal Family. We are lucky to live on this island, it's got plenty of faults but I wouldn't live anywhere else for a gold clock and I have done plenty of travelling over the years. |  | | |
| When will this stop? on 21:11 - Aug 2 with 2105 views | 442Dale |
| When will this stop? on 21:08 - Aug 2 by TalkingSutty |
Not a lot, but it's still a great place to live. England is sports mad, in general we enjoy a good standard of living and the UK is steeped in history and blessed with magnificent scenery and coast line. The Llyn Peninsula being my particular favourite.
Contrary to popular belief the NHS is still the envy of the world and the jewel in the crown, you appreciate that when you need it. Compared to other countries it's a safe place to live, unemployment is relatively low and with a bit of luck we might win the Ashes back next week.
We also have the Royal Family, I bloody love the Royal Family. We are lucky to live on this island, it's got plenty of faults but I wouldn't live anywhere else for a gold clock and I have done plenty of travelling over the years. |
The family that sit around watching tv rather than those who release a new tea towel every time there's a wedding?
You haven't even seen the best bit of coastline yet. Once you do it'll take two gold clocks. |  |
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| When will this stop? on 21:18 - Aug 2 with 2144 views | TalkingSutty |
| When will this stop? on 21:11 - Aug 2 by 442Dale |
The family that sit around watching tv rather than those who release a new tea towel every time there's a wedding?
You haven't even seen the best bit of coastline yet. Once you do it'll take two gold clocks. |
I like both Royal Family's, they're probably very similar behind closed doors, Prince Philip would fit in perfectly.
I had a bad experience once at Flamborough Head in a fishing boat , coupled with a uncomfortable FA Cup tie at Scarborough , so I tend to give the East Coast a wide berth. Not good memories. | | | |
| When will this stop? on 21:22 - Aug 2 with 2135 views | fermin |
A bit of an emotive subject . I speak as a bit of a lefty myself, but I do find the left's use of 'Islamophobia' as an excuse to shut down debate about Islam a bit annoying. I have a few general points.
Now that we have 'moved on' a bit, it seems to be forgotten that in the not too distant past (say 100+ years ago) our society tended to consist of close-knit groups with a heavy emphasis on a book-based religion closely related to Islam. Going slightly further back we also had a lot of persecution of or discrimination against non-Christians and Christians of the wrong persuasion ie Catholic or non-conformist rather than Anglican. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universities_Tests_Act_1871 is one example.
My point is that we have experience of this in our past and to a greater or letter extent have tried to 'move on' in tolerance of people who do not fit the expected norm. We have 'form' in other words and while we may not be experts on Islam we do have background with a similar religion. As someone mentioned above, close-knit groups can be very supportive, but they can also be oppressive and exclude you if you do not conform to expected behaviour patterns. I believe that abuse of women and children does occur within Muslim and other communities but it is not heard about because of the close-knit nature - a mixture of shame-culture and the view that the victims (especially if female) must have been 'asking for it' (an attitude which has not entirely disappeared from 'our' community yet to be truthful).
Anyway, it seems to me that having made progress in this regard we are in danger of regressing by reacquiring increasing numbers of socially conservative religious poulations. And I would say the same if they were Christian, as would be the case in the USA for example (less so here, but I think evangelical Christianity is becoming more popular unfortunately).
My second point is this. It seems to me that on the whole Islam is a particularly conservative religion, in the way it it interpreted and increasingly practised. In the context of this debate I would point out the segregation of women, their lower status and the increasing requirement for them to wear some kind of covering (and I realise that some do this out of choice but I suspect many do not). As a bit of lefty I find it difficult to reconcile my general views with that of tolerating other people's beliefs when the latter are so at odds with mine. If Islam were a political party (and some would argue it is to some extent quite a political religion by its nature) then those on the left would naturally be somewhat critical of its policies - I do not see how you can reconcile a belief in the equality of men and women with a doctrine that manifestly does not. Instead you get bizarre stuff like this:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2015/jun/24/hijab-not-oppression-
Sorry for the rambling post! |  | | |
| When will this stop? on 21:30 - Aug 2 with 2124 views | TalkingSutty |
| When will this stop? on 21:22 - Aug 2 by fermin |
A bit of an emotive subject . I speak as a bit of a lefty myself, but I do find the left's use of 'Islamophobia' as an excuse to shut down debate about Islam a bit annoying. I have a few general points.
Now that we have 'moved on' a bit, it seems to be forgotten that in the not too distant past (say 100+ years ago) our society tended to consist of close-knit groups with a heavy emphasis on a book-based religion closely related to Islam. Going slightly further back we also had a lot of persecution of or discrimination against non-Christians and Christians of the wrong persuasion ie Catholic or non-conformist rather than Anglican. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universities_Tests_Act_1871 is one example.
My point is that we have experience of this in our past and to a greater or letter extent have tried to 'move on' in tolerance of people who do not fit the expected norm. We have 'form' in other words and while we may not be experts on Islam we do have background with a similar religion. As someone mentioned above, close-knit groups can be very supportive, but they can also be oppressive and exclude you if you do not conform to expected behaviour patterns. I believe that abuse of women and children does occur within Muslim and other communities but it is not heard about because of the close-knit nature - a mixture of shame-culture and the view that the victims (especially if female) must have been 'asking for it' (an attitude which has not entirely disappeared from 'our' community yet to be truthful).
Anyway, it seems to me that having made progress in this regard we are in danger of regressing by reacquiring increasing numbers of socially conservative religious poulations. And I would say the same if they were Christian, as would be the case in the USA for example (less so here, but I think evangelical Christianity is becoming more popular unfortunately).
My second point is this. It seems to me that on the whole Islam is a particularly conservative religion, in the way it it interpreted and increasingly practised. In the context of this debate I would point out the segregation of women, their lower status and the increasing requirement for them to wear some kind of covering (and I realise that some do this out of choice but I suspect many do not). As a bit of lefty I find it difficult to reconcile my general views with that of tolerating other people's beliefs when the latter are so at odds with mine. If Islam were a political party (and some would argue it is to some extent quite a political religion by its nature) then those on the left would naturally be somewhat critical of its policies - I do not see how you can reconcile a belief in the equality of men and women with a doctrine that manifestly does not. Instead you get bizarre stuff like this:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2015/jun/24/hijab-not-oppression-
Sorry for the rambling post! |
I tell you what, hats off to you guys who have been the major contributors to this thread, it oozes intelligence. | | | |
| When will this stop? on 08:01 - Aug 3 with 2026 views | R17ALE |
| When will this stop? on 09:29 - Aug 2 by moth5368 |
"Most/many people do not appear to be loyal British subjects"
Most people, most Asian people? What do you want, Union Jack t-shirts, flag waving, Morris dancing in the streets??. [Post edited 2 Aug 2015 9:29]
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If it was a choice, yes.
You've completely missed the point however. You read that I was disappointed to drive round Rochdale and be bewildered by the volume of non-British subjects. You, bizarrely, interpreted that as me calling for Union Jack T-shirts etc. Wow!
No. I was disappointed to drive round Rochdale and be bewildered by the volume of Asians. The town I grew up in has changed beyond all recognition and for the worse. |  |
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| When will this stop? on 10:08 - Aug 3 with 1959 views | moth5368 |
| When will this stop? on 08:01 - Aug 3 by R17ALE |
If it was a choice, yes.
You've completely missed the point however. You read that I was disappointed to drive round Rochdale and be bewildered by the volume of non-British subjects. You, bizarrely, interpreted that as me calling for Union Jack T-shirts etc. Wow!
No. I was disappointed to drive round Rochdale and be bewildered by the volume of Asians. The town I grew up in has changed beyond all recognition and for the worse. |
No, I'm afraid that you've missed the point. What you actually posted was that most/many do not appear to be loyal British subjects. What is bizarre is that you've managed to come to that conclusion based on driving past people. I'd be interested to know how you did this, do you have some kind of mind reading apparatus or are you basing it on people's colour? | | | |
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