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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 09:44 2 Jun 2015
I'd love to respond in more detail TT, but I'm struggling to actually read and digest that to be honest, plus I'm not keen on having my words manipulated.
I'm inclined to believe it wouldn't matter anyway and in fairness that would be reciprocal.
For my part, I am simply glad that we have a competent 'middle ground' organisation in BST who manage to hold it altogether.
I don't agree with throwing smoke bombs in Oystons garden any more than I agree with wandering aimlessly into dialogue on his terms and I suspect the majority will feel the same way.
Desperation led to the Tennis Ball protest and also to the peaceful pitch protest and there is a huge difference between supporting those actions and standing by your fellow supporters by an understanding of what drove them to act.
There is no question of the fans being to blame for the despicable actions of our owners, which pre-date any fan action, pre-dare the formation of both SISA, BST and the Knight and which were the sole reason that BISA itself was formed way back when.
This is not the first time we have found ourselves floundering through lack of intent or investment and given the nature of our owners it undoubtedly will not be the last. There is no future for Blackpool FC, whilst the Oyston family remain at the helm...the chance to invest and build on success has long since gone (along with the tens of millions taken or loaned).
Regime change is necessary and the only way to bring that about is to pressurise the current incumbents to sell.
We know that viable alternatives exist, our President has clarified his position more than once...I'm really not sure what you feel you have left to talk with Mr Oyston about...taking a chainsaw to the JA statue perhaps? |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 09:12 1 Jun 2015
Talk shouldn't come at any price though TT. What we seem to have here is the reformation of the exclusive gentlemans club approach to communication with the Club, whereby 12 Neville Chamberlains will be hand picked by Karl to receive the fabled piece of paper.
By supporting the approach in its present form, you are supporting engagement which seeks to exclude certain viewpoints, stifle opposition to the Oyston family and at the same time tries to apply an element of pressure to purchase Season Tickets.
I can fully appreciate that we may well have supporters who would wish to engage with Karl Oyston, but you have had more than enough opportunity to do so and you will have adequate opportunity to do so in future.
In addition and particularly in your position TT, you know that BST has sought to renegotiate terms for this engagement that will assure the credibility of the process and ensure that engaging with the process has some value for us all. Therefore to engage prior to Oyston even reponding to BST, would be an act of defiance on the part of some, whereby as individuals you are essentially saying that you feel that your individual viewpoint takes precedence over the only collective, independent and democratically appointed voice we have available at the present time.
For me the supporters need to be represented by our democratically appointed representatives, who all supporters can feel they can stand behind with a degree of confidence that their viewpoint has been considered. We have already had this closed shop approach to communication with the club via BSA in the past and we know it failed to work.
What gets me is when we have a fantastic organisation like the Trust, why instead of bickering between ourselves or acting rashly to either capitulate on the one hand or throw smoke bombs into Oystons garden on the other hand, people do not seek to express themselves properly through the democratic organisation available to them in order that our own appointed representatives are fully mandated to act and engage with the Club on terms that are acceptable to us as supporters.
By breaking rank all that we do is weaken our position and in doing so limit our chances of reaching a satisfactory outcome. |
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Reply | Dull season
at 10:32 31 May 2015
When you experience the filthy side of the game first hand as we have done with the Oyston family, it's difficult not to fall out of love with the game. I think distancing yourself from the game as a whole somehow makes the cross of essentially being disenfranchised from your own club easier to bear.
That said, I fell out of love with the game as a whole years ago and mainly due to the fact that there was simply far too much of it on TV. For me, I was happy with the FA Cup once a year along with a televised World Cup...liked the Champions a League at first, but I even find that dull as dishwater now....you can get far too much of a good thing.
Football is a game that should be watched live and felt in the atmosphere of a stadium and not on the TV screen and until such time as we get back to recognising that, I imagine that people will become increasingly turned off, through being over-faced with a game that has mirrored society and placed greed at the top of its priority list.
We also talk about Grass roots football, but a win at all costs mentality has filtered down to that level too...where local town teams would be made up of local players and any success was based upon their ability to collectively improve, teams will now use whatever resources they can get their hands on to bring in the best players from far and wide....even kids teams will poach players from others instead of nurturing and trying to improve or make the best of what they have. |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 13:26 29 May 2015
Not really sure how everything will go to the dogs because fans try and renegotiate the basis of a pretend parliament, but if you seriously think this is the means by which we will get to the Premier League TT, then go for it.... |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 23:44 28 May 2015
For some odd reason I can't see Rusty's posts when I'm signed in 
Anyway...100% with you 20's on that front |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 22:06 28 May 2015
Thanks 20's, I'd missed that post from straiters too and what a superb read it was  |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 21:29 28 May 2015
Karl has essentially isolated himself and our club Lala and it is not just the fans he has isolated himself from, it is numerous contacts from whom we could be gaining favours, through his own arrogance and reckless stupidity.
There comes a point where you have to just accept he's just a horrible human being and as such really not worth engaging with. We're not social workers, here to caress and cajole the naughty little child into behaving properly..
For me Karl is the classic case of remembering "be careful who you step on on the way up, because you never know who you might need on the way down"
I've come across his sort before...In fact I know another example of an owner in the estate agency business funnily enough....It's all well and good adopting an arrogant approach to business and it can work for the short term, but in the long term you start to run out of options, run out of friends and eventually the inevitable happens.
I do wonder at times if people on here just like to see the minority viewpoint upheld and as such try to justify the unjustifiable just to be contrary. I know not everyone shares the same viewpoint, but where Karl is concerned, it simply exasperates me that people are even remotely willing to engage in adult discussion with him.
Did they not witness what he did to the Morty statue?
Did they not see him mouth "Let's take a selfie" as he giggled at the desperate souls below, who just want a fair deal for their club?
Have they not experience him savaging our supporters for going slightly OTT in their criticism of him or for simply trying to stand up to him?
What does he actually need to do in order for people to accept him for what he is? |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 21:12 28 May 2015
Well if things are done un-noticed 20's, then there are clearly two separate versions of events to consider and in fairness I don't even know what one of them is at present. |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 21:04 28 May 2015
Lala,
It's inevitable that people will have an opinion on the FP and I think it's important to realise that much of that will be borne out of fear....The fear that the efforts to try and isolate Karl over the past months and to highlight him for hat he is, will be undermined by people essentially playing out a charade.
Surely even you can see that it would be better to have no FP at all (and as such ensure that the world can see he remains uninterested in the fans) if the only purpose that it serves is for Karl to hide behind the pretense of fan engagement. |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 20:55 28 May 2015
To be honest 20's I think fans across the board (not just BFC) get a pretty raw deal and so to be honest I accept very few have real influence...That is not to say that other Clubs don't show their supporters a whole load more consideration than ours do however.
For me it really isn't about having massive influence as such it is a simple case of us needing different owners with a totally different philosophy. Talking to the Oystons won't change them, owning a 20% stake in the boardroom won't change them, it really is a complete waste of time engaging with them full stop.
With BST, I think they have to tick the box, but I agree that actively engaging in dialogue or supporting them in doing so is hypocritical and it is pointless.
Incidentally, no comment from you regarding my comments above regarding fan intimidation...Did I make myself clear enough? |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 20:39 28 May 2015
Sorry 20's, I'm not trying to be unfair, I'm possibly exaggerating slightly to make a point.
The point I was making is that BSA probably had more power before engaging with Karl...I'd also say the same about BST, I think their power comes in their ability to tackle him directly, bluntly and without fear of any real consequence...Once they start to engage in dialogue, then they would have to do so on Karls terms and obviously under the implied threat that dialogue would be withdrawn if they didn't behave .
With modern media the way it is, then there really is no need for direct dialogue to exert pressure and influence an outcome. [Post edited 28 May 2015 20:43]
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 20:29 28 May 2015
I think you only have to look at a quick cross section of those willing to participate in the FP and those who aren't to see where people who will apply sit on the bumspiderswingometer Robbie . 
So whilst we may perhaps be guilty of a bit of pre-judgement....in all likelihood the balance of the 12 will be made up of those who have essentially been the least likely to disagree with Oyston policy and most likely to agree with it...In other words precisely the people Karl wants, because he knows he will have them in his pocket with relative ease. |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 20:03 28 May 2015
20's ...
I feel uncomfortable about commenting on specific incidents where I do not have all the facts, but let me be clear about one thing at least....I absolutely believe that any form of intimidation of our fellow supporters under any circumstances is totally and utterly abhorrent and it is definitely something that I would speak out against if I saw it happening.
On your second point, I think that the reason why BST are trying to settle the terms of engagement up front here is for precisely the reasons that you have stated....BSA failed, despite many years of effort as essentially they had no power or influence... in fact one could argue that they actually had much more power and influence before dropping the 'I', which is precisely why Karl wanted to take control of what he perceived at the time to be a threat....BISA similar to SISA and the trust were a strong and well organised group, who clearly provided Karl with a few headaches, by contrast BSA were allowed to have their say, listened to when it suited his agenda and roundly ignored and patted on the head when it didn't.
So if we are to enter into a similar arena again, then it MUST be done with the groundrules already in place and n particular a devolution of some power to those who are engaging in the process. No Power - No Point! Of course as we have seen here, Karl even wants to handpick the reps themselves, set parameters for who can or cannot be involved and essentially provide them with no real influence...In other words... Lip Service!!
Incidentally I do actually see no point at all in BST engaging in simple dialogue with the Club, save to say that "We tried, We failed and now we are free to move on" and I think essentially that is where BST are at....The idea of dialogue is simply a means by which to state that they have tried and as such the next stage in the process is justifiable.
[Post edited 28 May 2015 20:09]
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 19:20 28 May 2015
Yes controlled...absoluty no question about that whatsoever.
Any organisation that is forced to operate under terms that influence its ability to operate with complete independence is being controlled.
If they were not controlled then there would have been absolutely no point in Karl wanting them to drop their independence.... No point at all...
Edit to add, there's no ritual abuse TT, but again merely realism....I think most would agree that in terms of standing up to Karl Oyston the people who have already capitulated are going to be those who provide the weakest opposition.
If this is to even be taken remotely seriously then it must engage with the broadest range of opinion as opposed to being limted to the most moderate...Therefore NAPM must be treated on an equal footing to those who have presently got ST's.... [Post edited 28 May 2015 20:05]
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 19:14 28 May 2015
As for the clap trap about ST's and not allowing NAPM, I'm struggling to see how we can expect any strength at all in an argument from people too weak principled to take a stand?
We know that those who are most likely to be remaining as ST's are those most likely to capitulate or bend to Oyston spin, because essentially that is what they have already done... Take that a step further and those people who would rather take these scraps from Oystons table instead of trying to actually negotiate terms that suit the fans and it becomes quite obvious the 12 will be made up of the weakest voices amongst us.
At times it makes me wonder if people just like the idea of being a part of it and really have no bones at all about the integrity of the process they are agreeing to sign up to.
The same people who were first with their hands up to attend the BSA meetings that ostracised normal long standing BFC supporters.
Openess and transparency not secret handshakes cheers!! [Post edited 28 May 2015 19:15]
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 19:03 28 May 2015
It's totally bizarre Halifax!!
The clue ought to be in the name "Fans Parliament"... If it is to have any remote credibility at all then the representatives should not even be applying to the club, but rather the whole thing should be essentially managed by the fans themselves. The sensible thing to do would be to hand to an independent fans body and we have a perfectly good one, who can then oversee the process and ensure that a proper democratic process takes place, instead of the usual Oyston controlled Shiite.
This is precisely where we ended up with BSA ...A fans representative, who are essentially 'controlled' by the club chairman.
How can these people represent US if we have no say in determining who they are? They are Club representatives if Karl picks them or has any influence over who they are ....simple as that.
Yes there must be sensible parameters to ensure the whole thing is not a total farce, but it is a pointless exercise if Karl is not prepared to allow the fans the freedom to select their own reps without his interference.
Totally pointless (and that is before we even come to the matter of whether any power will be conceded) |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 17:45 28 May 2015
I don't like or agree with "The Company" dictating the terms for fans representatives at all and I think they should basically butt out in many ways.
For me the FANS representatives ought to be fully determined by the fans....End of! |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 16:00 28 May 2015
There's a whole raft of reasons why people may not have Season Tickets and so to exclude carte blanche on that basis is ridiculous. You also can't just have a free for all either, bit of someone is committed, can demonstrate their BFC supporter credentials, then I see no reason for them to be excluded.
Anyone who sees holding a ST as a determination of superiority or even commitment has personal ego related issues they need to come to terms with themselves before judging those who do not.
ST's offer benefits to the Club and they offer benefits to the supporter. I can understand why those benefits might extend to preferential treatment in regard to match tickets, but as a means by which to determine democratic process??? Sorry I'm not having that at all...in one foul swoop you instantly exclude those objecting over concerns with the ownership.
Do we want a parliament of Yes Men? |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 15:37 28 May 2015
You may well be right LaLa and in fairness if it was something I genuinely believed in myself I'm sure I wouldn't let that concern stop me.
Incidentally I was kind of talking about stuff that we know had already happened and essentially trying to say that I know it isn't right and I know it shouldn't happen, but it did happen, the fact that it happened was predictable etc..
Having an appreciation of the reality does not mean you condone or agree with it. Understanding the reasons why something would happen does not mean you accept or agree with those reasons...
That's all |
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Reply | Fans Parliament
at 15:12 28 May 2015
Sorry, been too busy to reply to the responses.
TT and Lala,
I'm not trying to condone intimidation, nor am I trying to blame people or even suggest that they have brought it on themselves at all and I'm absolutely sure that is not the case with TAM.
What I am doing, however, is accepting the reality and having and appreciation of why these things have actually occurred.
People have every right to hold an alternative viewpoint, they have every right to expect that they should not be intimidated or subjected to violence for having said viewpoint and those who would intimate or be violent are totally an utterly out of order....however... That does not mean it won't happen... The reality is that it certainly could happen (probably not to an extreme level, but it is a likely outcome)
So in taking the decision to express publicly your alternative viewpoint, you must be prepared to also accept the consequences... The fact the consequences are unacceptable makes no difference to the reality of them happening.
Just because a person ought to be able to walk home safely through a dimly lit park, doesn't prevent the possibility of them being attacked. That is just an unfortunate consequence of placing themselves in that position. |
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