| The real cost of relegation? 17:50 - Feb 18 with 4838 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
I’m not fully up to speed with the difference in income we will get from tv, EFL, league position etc. so if anyone is more up to speed on what we will lose from those sources would be interesting to read.
Crowd wise I don’t think it will effect us but what is clear is, if we are losing 1m a year then a complete reset is needed. The club needs to be run as a sustainable business regardless of the cost on the pitch. Players like EEL, Quigley, who are probably on the best part of 200k a year need to go, this sort of signing should never have happened, I would sooner watch crap than nothing and currently we are paying over the odds for incompetent players.
The same applies off the field, how many of the staff at the club are unnecessary and do not provide value for their salary, again I have no idea, but anything and anyone that does not add value should be gone. Is the Twitter feed for sponsors only to post, if not it should be, you help the club we help you! How much does the driving school pay for the honour of using the clubs name? If it’s profitable then employ a driving instructor at the club with the money going to the club! Too many are riding on the shoulders of giants and getting a living leaching off the clubs name.
Obviously a lot of these issues were made worse by Roger, but in truth we have been lucky for years with the likes of Holt, Lambert, Hogan, Dawson etc sell ons keeping us afloat. Add in Matheson, Adshead, Rathbone etc. and that’s what has kept us sustainable, along with the cup runs.
We have in reality had 2 management teams that has produced anything of note, some have been better than others and added something (Begara, Sutton, BBM) but other than Hill Croft and Parkin we have had some shocking appointments.
We need to completely refresh everything, look at every employee of the club and see what they do and start cutting our cloth accordingly, get people in on commission only if necessary, if we don’t make money on the refreshments get volenteers in or sell the rights to someone else, same with the bars and sponsored catering and events.
Why nobody has done a proper job of this lord knows but to moan about losses then do nothing about it to me is ridiculous. If the board can’t or don’t want to cover these losses, then do something about it, employ a consultant to come in and do their job. They won’t care if it’s popular, it needs someone without emotion or links to tell the Emperor he has feck all on.
Going football getting beat I can cope with, letting the ship sail towards the rocks and the gesturing sirens I can’t! |  |
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| The real cost of relegation? on 20:32 - Feb 18 with 4618 views | EllDale |
I posted the other week that the Academy in it’s current format could well be the first casualty of relegation.
An article I read on Bury (!) the other month suggested that they received around a grant of £460k pa from the EFL for running their Academy.
I’m not sure either what grants come from the EFL for running the Community side of the club. They would obviously be lost and cutbacks necessary as a result in that area. |  | | |
| The real cost of relegation? on 20:38 - Feb 18 with 4598 views | D_Alien |
The other thing about running an Academy outside the EFL is that clubs don't benefit from the "development" payments when a young player is poached by another club
[Post edited 18 Feb 2023 20:39]
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| The real cost of relegation? on 20:41 - Feb 18 with 4576 views | Sheffield_dale |
| The real cost of relegation? on 20:32 - Feb 18 by EllDale |
I posted the other week that the Academy in it’s current format could well be the first casualty of relegation.
An article I read on Bury (!) the other month suggested that they received around a grant of £460k pa from the EFL for running their Academy.
I’m not sure either what grants come from the EFL for running the Community side of the club. They would obviously be lost and cutbacks necessary as a result in that area. |
You are correct regarding the community side. EFL pretty much fund most of them programmes. Such a huge shame considering the great stories that stem from the community arm. | | | |
| The real cost of relegation? on 20:52 - Feb 18 with 4525 views | DaleFan7 |
It's a hard one, I'm not sure what the EFL funding is, I just know you get a parachute payment in the first one (or two) years you go down.
If we really are losing £1m a year then we've not been the sustainable club that we claim we are, like you say, we've been lucky to have players to sell and cup runs in certain years. Which should be accounted for as exceptional not budgeted for. Now the talent pool in the academy has seemed to dry up, Brierly aside, we're realising actually we're not that sustainable. I agree we need a reset and offering any player 2 year deals on daft wages is not the way forward, especially as we seem to give it to older players.
If we've got to be sustainable and our natural level is the National League then so be it. I'd rather watch Rochdale in that division than not at all. | | | |
| The real cost of relegation? on 21:23 - Feb 18 with 4452 views | EllDale |
A lot of difficult decisions will have to be made.
It’s not just making cuts but also maximising/increasing revenue.
Do season ticket prices go up for example?
The biggest question, to my mind, is does the club still employ full time players?
And a full time backup staff like analysts and a large medical team? | | | |
| The real cost of relegation? on 14:06 - Feb 19 with 4097 views | NorthernDale |
I think we will remain full-time,because very fill teams in the NL are part-time.
The thing that will impact financially we be the number of trips to the south (possibly 12 or more teams) and this will mean additional overnight stops and the impact on away attendances, besides Oldham, Halifax and possibly Chesterfield the number of away fans will be minimum, which will cost us in gate receipts | | | |
| The real cost of relegation? on 14:30 - Feb 19 with 4046 views | tony_roch975 |
| The real cost of relegation? on 20:52 - Feb 18 by DaleFan7 |
It's a hard one, I'm not sure what the EFL funding is, I just know you get a parachute payment in the first one (or two) years you go down.
If we really are losing £1m a year then we've not been the sustainable club that we claim we are, like you say, we've been lucky to have players to sell and cup runs in certain years. Which should be accounted for as exceptional not budgeted for. Now the talent pool in the academy has seemed to dry up, Brierly aside, we're realising actually we're not that sustainable. I agree we need a reset and offering any player 2 year deals on daft wages is not the way forward, especially as we seem to give it to older players.
If we've got to be sustainable and our natural level is the National League then so be it. I'd rather watch Rochdale in that division than not at all. |
but if our 'natural level' (i.e. what we can afford on just our own generated income) is more like level 8 (Northern Premier League Divisions) or below would folk still want to watch and pay? | |
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| The real cost of relegation? on 14:34 - Feb 19 with 4032 views | James1980 |
| The real cost of relegation? on 14:30 - Feb 19 by tony_roch975 |
but if our 'natural level' (i.e. what we can afford on just our own generated income) is more like level 8 (Northern Premier League Divisions) or below would folk still want to watch and pay? |
I'll join the fans under a lean to with a steaming hot cup of instant in a polystyrene cup if it comes to that. | |
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| The real cost of relegation? on 15:00 - Feb 19 with 3974 views | EllDale |
Talking about attendances makes me think that, apart from perhaps half a dozen league games, the Willbutts Lane Stand could well be mothballed.
Those six or so games would obviously be Oldham, whoever doesn’t go up this season from Wrexham/Notts County/Chesterfield plus the likes of perhaps Hartlepool, Halifax, York and Scunthorpe. Any possible cup ties would be a separate issue.
I doubt if the Boreham Woods, Wealdstones, Dorkings or Wokings will bring more than two or three hundred even on a Saturday so no point in paying for stewarding or catering staff in the Willbutts.
A comparison could be made perhaps with Halifax where it is rare that more than two sides of the ground are open on a match day.
It would mean finding room somewhere else, perhaps in the Main Stand East or the Willbutts edge of the Pearl Street stand for away fans but I’m sure that this could be arranged during the close season.
This is presuming of course that home support remains relatively constant at about 2000 fans per game. [Post edited 19 Feb 2023 15:02]
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| The real cost of relegation? on 16:05 - Feb 19 with 3834 views | tony_roch975 |
| The real cost of relegation? on 14:34 - Feb 19 by James1980 |
I'll join the fans under a lean to with a steaming hot cup of instant in a polystyrene cup if it comes to that. |
admirable response but many wouldn't... and you're right it would likely be a lean-to; we wouldn't be able to afford Spotland either. | |
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| The real cost of relegation? on 16:58 - Feb 19 with 3727 views | 442Dale |
| The real cost of relegation? on 16:05 - Feb 19 by tony_roch975 |
admirable response but many wouldn't... and you're right it would likely be a lean-to; we wouldn't be able to afford Spotland either. |
This debate has come up on here before. It’s impossible to say and we don’t want to fall to that level, but clubs such as Hereford, Chester, Darlington and Scarborough have not only overcome having to start again, they’ve risen up to National League North and survive there. Torquay dropped into the NLS in 18/19 and made it back up and their crowds are very comparable with Dale’s. Plus there are plenty of “smaller” non league clubs who bounce between the NL and the NLN/NLS.
It’s up to us to make sure we look to exist better within our means starting next season, and put a team out on the pitch that doesn’t get relegated again. If we do, then it’s the same again. Not sure what evidence there is of fans disappearing in their hundreds immediately or why we can’t carry on like any other similar sized clubs who manage it year after year.
Of course it’s up to individuals and nobody is naive enough to think some fans will stop coming. But as a collective we have to look to progress within that situation. |  |
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| The real cost of relegation? on 19:16 - Feb 19 with 3517 views | 49thseason |
"It’s up to us to make sure we look to exist better within our means starting next season"
No reason to wait so long, even if we witnessed a miracle and we somehow stayed up, we would need to stop the finances spiraling out of control. We have to start now. Everything that costs money has to be identified and slashed as soon as we are mathematically relegated. We are not in a position to take our time, inevitably there will be hard decisions, but once relegated we dont need coaches, the manager and his assistant can do all that. He board need to decide how many other staff we actually need , general office, sales, marketing, Academy, community, waiters bar staff etc. How many could be kept on reduced hours and so on. This is the harsh reality of failure. We have to assume there is no sugar daddy arriving any time soon.
The other side of the coin is thst we have to sweat the assets as never before, weddings, meetings, funerals, conferences whatever..and we have to reinstate Gold Bond and grow it as never before. The volunteer army is now integral to survival, when did we expect to hear more about it? |  | | |
| The real cost of relegation? on 19:54 - Feb 19 with 3461 views | 442Dale |
| The real cost of relegation? on 19:16 - Feb 19 by 49thseason |
"It’s up to us to make sure we look to exist better within our means starting next season"
No reason to wait so long, even if we witnessed a miracle and we somehow stayed up, we would need to stop the finances spiraling out of control. We have to start now. Everything that costs money has to be identified and slashed as soon as we are mathematically relegated. We are not in a position to take our time, inevitably there will be hard decisions, but once relegated we dont need coaches, the manager and his assistant can do all that. He board need to decide how many other staff we actually need , general office, sales, marketing, Academy, community, waiters bar staff etc. How many could be kept on reduced hours and so on. This is the harsh reality of failure. We have to assume there is no sugar daddy arriving any time soon.
The other side of the coin is thst we have to sweat the assets as never before, weddings, meetings, funerals, conferences whatever..and we have to reinstate Gold Bond and grow it as never before. The volunteer army is now integral to survival, when did we expect to hear more about it? |
It was supposed to be in January.
As this specific timescale was agreed with the Trust, the lack of updates is surprising and disappointing. | |
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| The real cost of relegation? on 20:01 - Feb 19 with 3437 views | blackdogblue |
| The real cost of relegation? on 19:54 - Feb 19 by 442Dale |
It was supposed to be in January.
As this specific timescale was agreed with the Trust, the lack of updates is surprising and disappointing. |
Wasn’t there some “event” after the game yesterday?
I saw it on Twitter from the club yesterday but first I saw of it if my honest.. not been well promoted via Twitter.. cba looking for the last Dale Trust email to see if it was mentioned but I follow both on Twitter…
Was it the Specials.. this town.. feels like a …..
Did anyone stay?
Dale Trust Website..
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/
[Post edited 19 Feb 2023 20:06]
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| The real cost of relegation? on 20:13 - Feb 19 with 3382 views | 442Dale |
| The real cost of relegation? on 20:01 - Feb 19 by blackdogblue |
Wasn’t there some “event” after the game yesterday?
I saw it on Twitter from the club yesterday but first I saw of it if my honest.. not been well promoted via Twitter.. cba looking for the last Dale Trust email to see if it was mentioned but I follow both on Twitter…
Was it the Specials.. this town.. feels like a …..
Did anyone stay?
Dale Trust Website..
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/
[Post edited 19 Feb 2023 20:06]
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Yeah, live podcast and there’s a thread about it pinned at the top of the board.
It’s been promoted in various places over the last few weeks. | |
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| The real cost of relegation? on 20:27 - Feb 19 with 3341 views | D_Alien |
| The real cost of relegation? on 20:13 - Feb 19 by 442Dale |
Yeah, live podcast and there’s a thread about it pinned at the top of the board.
It’s been promoted in various places over the last few weeks. |
*Promoted
Can see why some people missed it | |
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| The real cost of relegation? on 11:23 - Feb 20 with 2967 views | A_Newby |
| The real cost of relegation? on 20:32 - Feb 18 by EllDale |
I posted the other week that the Academy in it’s current format could well be the first casualty of relegation.
An article I read on Bury (!) the other month suggested that they received around a grant of £460k pa from the EFL for running their Academy.
I’m not sure either what grants come from the EFL for running the Community side of the club. They would obviously be lost and cutbacks necessary as a result in that area. |
Hi EllDale,
This is what I posted on the forum questions for the board thread and also emailed to the trust. I did not get any replies, although it was mentioned at the forum that we would keep the £450,000 funding from the EFL if relegated for the first year in the national league and half that for the next year. No mention was made of academy or community funding.
"My questions concern planning for if we do get relegated.
Since 1992 (start of the premier league) only 4 teams relegated from league 2 to the national league have managed to “bounce back” with promotion in the first season in the national league.
Our funding from the premier league / FA is:
https://resources.premierleague.com/premierleague/document/2021/11/23/1f9ec411-6
1. How much funding will the club lose from the premier league solidarity fund (£650,000)?
2. If relegated what will happen to the funding provided by the premier league (£450,000 per year) for our academy and for the community trust? Will these need to be closed?
3. If the event of being relegated has a plan been (or is in the process of being) prepared?
4. If relegated apart from a large cash input from an “investor”, does the club have an alternative plan to balance the budget and what would this include?
I don’t want to see us relegated but if we were I would like us to be prepared well in advance to give us a good chance of being the fifth club to bounce straight back from the national league to the EFL." |  | | |
| The real cost of relegation? on 11:33 - Feb 20 with 2929 views | A_Newby |
https://trainingground.guru/articles/stockport-county-awarded-category-three-aca
This article probably answers all questions about what happens to the academy if we are relegated.
From the article.
“The youth development system in this country is world-class, however It is limited to Football League Clubs and so when County were relegated 11 years ago, they lost their ability to operate a registered Academy — which has had significant impact to the Club and its community.
“Without access to an Academy, we could no longer register and provide quality training to local players. These local players had to move to other clubs, preventing County from needed talent and potentially transfer revenue when it needed it the most." | | | |
| The real cost of relegation? on 11:39 - Feb 20 with 2898 views | 442Dale |
Did you get an acknowledgment of your questions?
To be fair, the replies may appear in the next Trust newsletter. | |
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| The real cost of relegation? on 11:51 - Feb 20 with 2854 views | EllDale |
| The real cost of relegation? on 11:33 - Feb 20 by A_Newby |
https://trainingground.guru/articles/stockport-county-awarded-category-three-aca
This article probably answers all questions about what happens to the academy if we are relegated.
From the article.
“The youth development system in this country is world-class, however It is limited to Football League Clubs and so when County were relegated 11 years ago, they lost their ability to operate a registered Academy — which has had significant impact to the Club and its community.
“Without access to an Academy, we could no longer register and provide quality training to local players. These local players had to move to other clubs, preventing County from needed talent and potentially transfer revenue when it needed it the most." |
Am I right in thinking that Callum Camps and Andy Cannon both had connections to the Stockport Academy around this time? | | | |
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