| Chairman's Statement 17:02 - Jan 5 with 46468 views | HullDale |
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| Chairman's Statement on 17:48 - Feb 25 with 4148 views | sxdale |
Any and all abuse should be directed where it belongs, to Bottomly and his cohorts. I just hope I live long enough to dance on their graves. |  | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 18:00 - Feb 25 with 4074 views | James1980 |
| Chairman's Statement on 17:48 - Feb 25 by sxdale |
Any and all abuse should be directed where it belongs, to Bottomly and his cohorts. I just hope I live long enough to dance on their graves. |
Was saying to a mate I feel sorry for Hendo. Equalling the goal scoring record in the season we will most likely get relegated. If he had still been with us during the BCD season I reckon he'd of equalled it and kept us in League 1 | |
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| Chairman's Statement on 19:46 - Feb 25 with 3881 views | finberty |
Unfortunately, the previous Chairman (or was it actually the correctly-maligned former CEO) saw to it that there was room for only one big name, and it wasn't going to be Hendo.
Everything that followed can be traced back to that malign duo. |  | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 11:41 - Feb 26 with 3445 views | A_Newby |
| Chairman's Statement on 10:52 - Feb 25 by James1980 |
As an aside perhaps a free or discounted Your Card with a share purchase wouldn't have been a bad idea. |
Hi James
Your suggestion on the face of it looks a good idea and the club could try it. However if they did they could possibly be challenged legally. |  | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 13:16 - Feb 26 with 3251 views | 49thseason |
| Chairman's Statement on 11:41 - Feb 26 by A_Newby |
Hi James
Your suggestion on the face of it looks a good idea and the club could try it. However if they did they could possibly be challenged legally. |
There are lots of examples of shareholder perks, giving shareholders a free discount card , or discounts of holidays, or products that a company might make is really quite common. Sometimes they are tied to holders of a minimum amount of shares but often are availablt people who only own 1 share
https://www.fidelity.co.uk/shares/shareholder-perks-and-benefits/ |  | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 14:04 - Feb 26 with 3152 views | TVOS1907 |
| Chairman's Statement on 11:41 - Feb 26 by A_Newby |
Hi James
Your suggestion on the face of it looks a good idea and the club could try it. However if they did they could possibly be challenged legally. |
Hi RA_Newby
Possibly?
I'm sure you know one way or other, wouldn't you say? |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Chairman's Statement on 15:39 - Feb 26 with 2964 views | A_Newby |
| Chairman's Statement on 13:16 - Feb 26 by 49thseason |
There are lots of examples of shareholder perks, giving shareholders a free discount card , or discounts of holidays, or products that a company might make is really quite common. Sometimes they are tied to holders of a minimum amount of shares but often are availablt people who only own 1 share
https://www.fidelity.co.uk/shares/shareholder-perks-and-benefits/ |
Hi 49th,
You are absolutely correct that companies can and do offer rewards to shareholders.
What I am saying however, is that the scheme proposed by James1980 was that the reward was TIED to purchasing new shares and THIS could be subject to a legal challenge.
For example, if James was not a current investor and bought 100 new shares and he was rewarded with a ÂŁ25 Dale card.
As an existing shareholder I voted at the EGM in favour of a resolution that the board could issue the new shares at a minimum price of ÂŁ2.35 per share.
With the value of the Dale rewards card James was given I could argue that he has been given a discount that has devalued my shares and ask for compensation.
Alternatively, I could argue that James having bought his shares has now received ÂŁ25 or a dividend of ÂŁ0.25 per share and I as the owner of ÂŁ10,000 shares am now entitled to a pay-out of ÂŁ2,500.
I am not saying that the club can’t have a scheme that rewards shareholders just that it would have to carefully thought out, planned, agreed in advance, and treat all shareholders equally. | | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 16:15 - Feb 26 with 2839 views | 442Dale |
| Chairman's Statement on 15:39 - Feb 26 by A_Newby |
Hi 49th,
You are absolutely correct that companies can and do offer rewards to shareholders.
What I am saying however, is that the scheme proposed by James1980 was that the reward was TIED to purchasing new shares and THIS could be subject to a legal challenge.
For example, if James was not a current investor and bought 100 new shares and he was rewarded with a ÂŁ25 Dale card.
As an existing shareholder I voted at the EGM in favour of a resolution that the board could issue the new shares at a minimum price of ÂŁ2.35 per share.
With the value of the Dale rewards card James was given I could argue that he has been given a discount that has devalued my shares and ask for compensation.
Alternatively, I could argue that James having bought his shares has now received ÂŁ25 or a dividend of ÂŁ0.25 per share and I as the owner of ÂŁ10,000 shares am now entitled to a pay-out of ÂŁ2,500.
I am not saying that the club can’t have a scheme that rewards shareholders just that it would have to carefully thought out, planned, agreed in advance, and treat all shareholders equally. |
It can certainly be said that the last share issue should have been thought out and planned better as it was obvious that there would not be the same sort of uptake amongst supporters as there was a year previously. |  |
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| Chairman's Statement on 16:20 - Feb 26 with 2819 views | D_Alien |
| Chairman's Statement on 16:15 - Feb 26 by 442Dale |
It can certainly be said that the last share issue should have been thought out and planned better as it was obvious that there would not be the same sort of uptake amongst supporters as there was a year previously. |
That's actually a very good point.
Since, if the details of the latest share issue had been previewed, a good many Dale fans would've been able to predict the sort of uptake that occurred, it does beg the question whether the planning of it (by Dale fans on the Board) wasn't with the intention that ensued
I won't, however, be demanding that someone/anyone be "held to account" for it |  |
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| Chairman's Statement on 17:37 - Feb 26 with 2636 views | A_Newby |
My final input on any suggestions about incentivising SHARE SALES with rewards.
Let’s take James’ proposal to the extreme.
Imagine if the club came up with a scheme where they said to fans that if they bought ÂŁ300 worth of new shares, they would be entitled to a free season card worth ÂŁ300.
As James is astute, he recognises a bargain when he sees one, he takes advantage of this fantastic offer, and he gets some shares and his season card for the same price as he would have paid for the season card alone.
Now as far as I understand it, shares are sold without any VAT being charged so the club would also benefit and keep nearly all of the £300 “capital investment” paid for the shares. Whereas if James had purchased his season card for £300, the club would have to pay out £60 in VAT to HMRC and only retain £240 in revenue.
Do you think HMRC would sit back and allow this sort of scheme, where money changes hands for goods or services and no or reduced VAT is paid? Do you think it would be legal?
I still think that in the future there is a place for a rewards scheme for shareholders but perhaps not just yet. | | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 17:54 - Feb 26 with 2596 views | 442Dale |
| Chairman's Statement on 17:37 - Feb 26 by A_Newby |
My final input on any suggestions about incentivising SHARE SALES with rewards.
Let’s take James’ proposal to the extreme.
Imagine if the club came up with a scheme where they said to fans that if they bought ÂŁ300 worth of new shares, they would be entitled to a free season card worth ÂŁ300.
As James is astute, he recognises a bargain when he sees one, he takes advantage of this fantastic offer, and he gets some shares and his season card for the same price as he would have paid for the season card alone.
Now as far as I understand it, shares are sold without any VAT being charged so the club would also benefit and keep nearly all of the £300 “capital investment” paid for the shares. Whereas if James had purchased his season card for £300, the club would have to pay out £60 in VAT to HMRC and only retain £240 in revenue.
Do you think HMRC would sit back and allow this sort of scheme, where money changes hands for goods or services and no or reduced VAT is paid? Do you think it would be legal?
I still think that in the future there is a place for a rewards scheme for shareholders but perhaps not just yet. |
Aye, but we still should have thought it through better, as sales to fans have shown. | |
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| Chairman's Statement on 18:04 - Feb 26 with 2549 views | TVOS1907 |
| Chairman's Statement on 17:37 - Feb 26 by A_Newby |
My final input on any suggestions about incentivising SHARE SALES with rewards.
Let’s take James’ proposal to the extreme.
Imagine if the club came up with a scheme where they said to fans that if they bought ÂŁ300 worth of new shares, they would be entitled to a free season card worth ÂŁ300.
As James is astute, he recognises a bargain when he sees one, he takes advantage of this fantastic offer, and he gets some shares and his season card for the same price as he would have paid for the season card alone.
Now as far as I understand it, shares are sold without any VAT being charged so the club would also benefit and keep nearly all of the £300 “capital investment” paid for the shares. Whereas if James had purchased his season card for £300, the club would have to pay out £60 in VAT to HMRC and only retain £240 in revenue.
Do you think HMRC would sit back and allow this sort of scheme, where money changes hands for goods or services and no or reduced VAT is paid? Do you think it would be legal?
I still think that in the future there is a place for a rewards scheme for shareholders but perhaps not just yet. |
James isn't the only astute one round these parts, is he? | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Chairman's Statement on 18:32 - Feb 26 with 2462 views | A_Newby |
| Chairman's Statement on 17:54 - Feb 26 by 442Dale |
Aye, but we still should have thought it through better, as sales to fans have shown. |
I agree the second share issue should have been thought through better.
When the first share issue was made during the takeover saga I understood that the funds raised would be for filling a shortfall in revenue caused in part by reduced income during lockdown.
I willingly bought some shares and recognised it for what it was, which was a gift to the club to help it survive for which I would get a nice certificate and a limited say in the club’s AGMs and EGMs.
I did not consider it as capital investment and commented on this at the time.
This season I thought we were starting with a “clean slate” and the club had a plan to operate sustainably where income and expenditure roughly balanced.
This obviously didn’t happen, something(s) went wrong and the board, with what resources we have available at the Dale, could not raise income, or reduce costs enough to balance the budget.
With openness to the shareholders the board indicated that more cash was needed to fill a (new?) financial black hole and that another share issue was needed. They also indicated that this could be an annually recurring issue.
I reluctantly purchased some more shares but decided that this would be the last time I purchased shares in the club simply for the money to be used as revenue.
If at the time of this share issue or in the future the club had said something along the lines of — “we have identified a piece of land suitable for a new training pitch and need funds of £1,000,000 to purchase it and begin its development and therefore we are issuing shares to raise fund for this.”
In these circumstances I would have happily purchased more shares, this would be real capital investment where the assets of the club increase as do the opportunities for more income, and improved performances on the pitch that could bring. | | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 18:55 - Feb 26 with 2359 views | kel |
| Chairman's Statement on 18:32 - Feb 26 by A_Newby |
I agree the second share issue should have been thought through better.
When the first share issue was made during the takeover saga I understood that the funds raised would be for filling a shortfall in revenue caused in part by reduced income during lockdown.
I willingly bought some shares and recognised it for what it was, which was a gift to the club to help it survive for which I would get a nice certificate and a limited say in the club’s AGMs and EGMs.
I did not consider it as capital investment and commented on this at the time.
This season I thought we were starting with a “clean slate” and the club had a plan to operate sustainably where income and expenditure roughly balanced.
This obviously didn’t happen, something(s) went wrong and the board, with what resources we have available at the Dale, could not raise income, or reduce costs enough to balance the budget.
With openness to the shareholders the board indicated that more cash was needed to fill a (new?) financial black hole and that another share issue was needed. They also indicated that this could be an annually recurring issue.
I reluctantly purchased some more shares but decided that this would be the last time I purchased shares in the club simply for the money to be used as revenue.
If at the time of this share issue or in the future the club had said something along the lines of — “we have identified a piece of land suitable for a new training pitch and need funds of £1,000,000 to purchase it and begin its development and therefore we are issuing shares to raise fund for this.”
In these circumstances I would have happily purchased more shares, this would be real capital investment where the assets of the club increase as do the opportunities for more income, and improved performances on the pitch that could bring. |
I’ve got one of those nice share certificates too but unfortunately due to frankly amateurish administration I don’t get to know about EGMs and AGMs until I read it on here. I’ve STILL not received any communication from the club to correct this even after contacting a director directly.
It’s also quite annoying that on the recent companies house filing they couldn’t even achieve the task of spelling my name correctly. I certainly didn’t add an extra letter to it when signing in to the last EGM. It’s embarrassing but I’m slowly accepting they don’t care how tinpot they look at times. |  | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 19:49 - Feb 26 with 2225 views | 49thseason |
"As an existing shareholder I voted at the EGM in favour of a resolution that the board could issue the new shares at a minimum price of ÂŁ2.35 per share.
With the value of the Dale rewards card James was given I could argue that he has been given a discount that has devalued my shares and ask for compensation.
Alternatively, I could argue that James having bought his shares has now received ÂŁ25 or a dividend of ÂŁ0.25 per share and I as the owner of ÂŁ10,000 shares am now entitled to a pay-out of ÂŁ2,500."
My experience of buying and selling shares, though limited, leads me to believe that your 1st point isnt really valid as you had the same opportunity to buy more shares and get a discount card and similarly your second point implys that James had been given a dividend, which he clearly hasnt as " dividend" is declared by the board of the company as a reward for all shareholders who own part of the business. You would receive a dividend based on the number of shares you own as would James
James has received a ÂŁ25 value card for buying shares in a particular issuance and I imagine the club will pay VAT on the ÂŁ25 in reality its not much different from being given lunch at an AGM. James may or may not use the card, he may give it to someone else to use he could in theory sell it for ÂŁ25. You didnt participate in the share offer and didnt get a card, your situation is unchanged, the value of your shares is unchanged. You have no loss, you simply chose not to participate in the shares issue. You can always spend ÂŁ25 and buy your own card....btw, every shares issue dilutes your shareholding in the sense that you own less of the club if you dont participate sufficiently to maintain the % of the company your holding represented prior to the issue. | | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 19:49 - Feb 26 with 2223 views | bluevein64 |
| Chairman's Statement on 18:55 - Feb 26 by kel |
I’ve got one of those nice share certificates too but unfortunately due to frankly amateurish administration I don’t get to know about EGMs and AGMs until I read it on here. I’ve STILL not received any communication from the club to correct this even after contacting a director directly.
It’s also quite annoying that on the recent companies house filing they couldn’t even achieve the task of spelling my name correctly. I certainly didn’t add an extra letter to it when signing in to the last EGM. It’s embarrassing but I’m slowly accepting they don’t care how tinpot they look at times. |
It isn't so long ago that posters on this forum were expressing their annoyance and disappointment that allegedly someone from the Club's Commercial Department had behaved inappropriately towards supporter/s representing one of the Clubs sponsor's, if that was the case I'd be interested to know if anyone from the Club was ever brought to account ?
Then there's this post from Kel - it's sad to read that having bought shares then being totally disrespected (my words ) regarding none communication, inadequate administration and official documentation spelling mistakes, how might Rochdale AFC attract investors/owner/s if they can't even get the basics right, it's a shoddy way to treat supporters who contribute (not only financially ) to the Club, the evidence seems to suggest that some employees at the Club may have a "Hook em and Fook em" type attitude which in this economic climate needs to be addressed sooner rather than later ! |  | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 19:50 - Feb 26 with 2213 views | TVOS1907 |
| Chairman's Statement on 18:55 - Feb 26 by kel |
I’ve got one of those nice share certificates too but unfortunately due to frankly amateurish administration I don’t get to know about EGMs and AGMs until I read it on here. I’ve STILL not received any communication from the club to correct this even after contacting a director directly.
It’s also quite annoying that on the recent companies house filing they couldn’t even achieve the task of spelling my name correctly. I certainly didn’t add an extra letter to it when signing in to the last EGM. It’s embarrassing but I’m slowly accepting they don’t care how tinpot they look at times. |
Hi Kel
Bet it gets sorted now. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Chairman's Statement on 20:20 - Feb 26 with 2111 views | kel |
| Chairman's Statement on 19:49 - Feb 26 by bluevein64 |
It isn't so long ago that posters on this forum were expressing their annoyance and disappointment that allegedly someone from the Club's Commercial Department had behaved inappropriately towards supporter/s representing one of the Clubs sponsor's, if that was the case I'd be interested to know if anyone from the Club was ever brought to account ?
Then there's this post from Kel - it's sad to read that having bought shares then being totally disrespected (my words ) regarding none communication, inadequate administration and official documentation spelling mistakes, how might Rochdale AFC attract investors/owner/s if they can't even get the basics right, it's a shoddy way to treat supporters who contribute (not only financially ) to the Club, the evidence seems to suggest that some employees at the Club may have a "Hook em and Fook em" type attitude which in this economic climate needs to be addressed sooner rather than later ! |
I should make it clear that the shares were transferred to me as a gift but I’m not going into that bit any further. The transfer was a ballache, the acknowledgment of it was a ballache and getting anyone to take ownership of the situation is a ballache.
I was given strict instructions from the donator of these shares that they are to be passed to my kids at a time I deem appropriate. Given I have three kids I can’t even begin to imagine the hassle I’d have if I was to do it at the present time. They can’t handle the transfer to one person ffs. | | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 20:20 - Feb 26 with 2105 views | kel |
| Chairman's Statement on 19:50 - Feb 26 by TVOS1907 |
Hi Kel
Bet it gets sorted now. |
I wouldn’t bet on it… | | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 20:48 - Feb 26 with 2010 views | Brierls |
| Chairman's Statement on 18:55 - Feb 26 by kel |
I’ve got one of those nice share certificates too but unfortunately due to frankly amateurish administration I don’t get to know about EGMs and AGMs until I read it on here. I’ve STILL not received any communication from the club to correct this even after contacting a director directly.
It’s also quite annoying that on the recent companies house filing they couldn’t even achieve the task of spelling my name correctly. I certainly didn’t add an extra letter to it when signing in to the last EGM. It’s embarrassing but I’m slowly accepting they don’t care how tinpot they look at times. |
How can they get that wrong?!*
Kevvin and Kevinn is so obviously wrong. |  | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 20:48 - Feb 26 with 2008 views | kel |
| Chairman's Statement on 20:48 - Feb 26 by Brierls |
How can they get that wrong?!*
Kevvin and Kevinn is so obviously wrong. |
Normally a letter missing isn’t it? | | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 21:53 - Feb 26 with 1845 views | Sandyman |
| Chairman's Statement on 20:20 - Feb 26 by kel |
I should make it clear that the shares were transferred to me as a gift but I’m not going into that bit any further. The transfer was a ballache, the acknowledgment of it was a ballache and getting anyone to take ownership of the situation is a ballache.
I was given strict instructions from the donator of these shares that they are to be passed to my kids at a time I deem appropriate. Given I have three kids I can’t even begin to imagine the hassle I’d have if I was to do it at the present time. They can’t handle the transfer to one person ffs. |
Apologies for making a bad situation worse, kel, but the following Special resolution was passed at the last EGM of November 2022 you weren't informed about or able to use your vote on.
3. THAT the Articles of Association of the Company be amended by inserting the following Article 21 to replace the present Article 21, namely:
21 A fee not exceeding ÂŁ15 may be charged for the registration of each transfer.
Looks like the privilege of a ballache share transfer will cost you ÂŁ15 per transfer now. Times 3 in your case. |  | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 21:57 - Feb 26 with 1838 views | kel |
| Chairman's Statement on 21:53 - Feb 26 by Sandyman |
Apologies for making a bad situation worse, kel, but the following Special resolution was passed at the last EGM of November 2022 you weren't informed about or able to use your vote on.
3. THAT the Articles of Association of the Company be amended by inserting the following Article 21 to replace the present Article 21, namely:
21 A fee not exceeding ÂŁ15 may be charged for the registration of each transfer.
Looks like the privilege of a ballache share transfer will cost you ÂŁ15 per transfer now. Times 3 in your case. |
Superb 😂 | | | |
| Chairman's Statement on 22:48 - Feb 26 with 1746 views | Hopwoodblue |
| Chairman's Statement on 21:57 - Feb 26 by kel |
Superb 😂 |
It’s becoming quite apparent on this message board that people are losing interest with RAFC with the lack of response to results and performances
Disillusioned is another way to put it. We are running out of games to save our league status and yet no word from the club about anything.
It’s sad and annoying.
Please let us know you feel what we feel. |  |
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| Chairman's Statement on 22:55 - Feb 26 with 1726 views | A_Newby |
| Chairman's Statement on 19:49 - Feb 26 by 49thseason |
"As an existing shareholder I voted at the EGM in favour of a resolution that the board could issue the new shares at a minimum price of ÂŁ2.35 per share.
With the value of the Dale rewards card James was given I could argue that he has been given a discount that has devalued my shares and ask for compensation.
Alternatively, I could argue that James having bought his shares has now received ÂŁ25 or a dividend of ÂŁ0.25 per share and I as the owner of ÂŁ10,000 shares am now entitled to a pay-out of ÂŁ2,500."
My experience of buying and selling shares, though limited, leads me to believe that your 1st point isnt really valid as you had the same opportunity to buy more shares and get a discount card and similarly your second point implys that James had been given a dividend, which he clearly hasnt as " dividend" is declared by the board of the company as a reward for all shareholders who own part of the business. You would receive a dividend based on the number of shares you own as would James
James has received a ÂŁ25 value card for buying shares in a particular issuance and I imagine the club will pay VAT on the ÂŁ25 in reality its not much different from being given lunch at an AGM. James may or may not use the card, he may give it to someone else to use he could in theory sell it for ÂŁ25. You didnt participate in the share offer and didnt get a card, your situation is unchanged, the value of your shares is unchanged. You have no loss, you simply chose not to participate in the shares issue. You can always spend ÂŁ25 and buy your own card....btw, every shares issue dilutes your shareholding in the sense that you own less of the club if you dont participate sufficiently to maintain the % of the company your holding represented prior to the issue. |
Hi 49th
The last time that the Dale issued new shares, the club was claimed to have treated one set of shareholders differently to the others and the directors ended up being personally sued and had to stump up (my estimate of around) ÂŁ500,000 of their own money buying shares to settle the case out of court.
The fans and trust had to pay over ÂŁ80,000 in legal fees.
You may be right and a scheme as proposed offering people incentives to buy new shares could be perfectly legal. Then again, I may be right, it may be illegal to offer incentives to people to purchase a new share issue and it could be challenged in court by a “malicious actor”.
Now if you were a director on the RAFC board would you be willing to gamble on such a scheme being legal knowing that you could face potentially massive financial consequences if it wasn’t or would you want to have it completely verified and approved by existing shareholders?
I still think that a reward scheme for shareholders is a good idea just not in this form. [Post edited 27 Feb 2023 8:33]
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