| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart 14:28 - Feb 25 with 6380 views | STID2017 |
I copied this list of another thread and wondered how accurate it is, bearing in mind this method has been used to illustrate that Brad Bobbly was better for us than Russell Martin is , and that Michael Laudrup is a poor league manager than, well most, it would seem ?
Please note I have added numbers in reverse order and one anonymous manager's win rate :
League points per game:-
11 - Clement 1.11
10 - Laudrup 1.13
9 - Martin 1.22
8 - Guidolin 1.26
7 - Monk 1.31
6 - Potter 1.41
5 - Anonymous 1.45
4 - Sousa 1.50
3 - Rodgers 1.53
2 - Cooper 1.63
1 - Martinez 1.73
As I say it has been used as a fair way to compare success or otherwise of Martin, Bobbly and Laudrup based on League points achieved under their tenure.
So would appreciate posters thoughts on if it is to be considered an accurate and fair measure or not ? |  |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 21:40 - Feb 26 with 682 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 21:37 - Feb 26 by STID2017 |
Thanks I respect your view and you are right.
There are so many factors to take into account and it is all subjective
For example it could be suggested that Hollins was a better manager than Harry Griffiths as he won us promotion and a Championship.
However i found his football so boring that i will always pick Griffiths as the better manager.
Cooper was successful in that he took us to the play offs twice, but again I preferred Potter's footballing approach
Laudrup gave us many exciting moments and galvanised the Swansealona style which the fans loved.
Sadly he lost his way, but it was brilliant while it lasted |
So many factors to take into consideration to what?
Gwyn was discussing ''favorite'' not ''best''. If you had said Laudrup was your favorite manager then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
You are blurring the lines (quite intentionally) between, ''great'', ''good'', ''favorite'', ''better than x,y,z''.
Gwyn is correct yes, but he is discussing something completely different to what you are. |  |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 21:45 - Feb 26 with 674 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 21:40 - Feb 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
So many factors to take into consideration to what?
Gwyn was discussing ''favorite'' not ''best''. If you had said Laudrup was your favorite manager then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
You are blurring the lines (quite intentionally) between, ''great'', ''good'', ''favorite'', ''better than x,y,z''.
Gwyn is correct yes, but he is discussing something completely different to what you are. |
You are just being obtuse,
Anyway as I asked earlier, using the chart above, does Ladrup's low league points return mean he was a worse manager than Sousa ?
Simple question to answer surely ?
Unless you are saying that the chart which ( bar one entry) you produced is meaningless and proves nothing about Laudrup or any other manager ? | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 21:55 - Feb 26 with 653 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 21:45 - Feb 26 by STID2017 |
You are just being obtuse,
Anyway as I asked earlier, using the chart above, does Ladrup's low league points return mean he was a worse manager than Sousa ?
Simple question to answer surely ?
Unless you are saying that the chart which ( bar one entry) you produced is meaningless and proves nothing about Laudrup or any other manager ? |
Nothing obtuse about it, I am pointing out you are conflating discussions that are not the same.
Favorite does not mean best. It is not remotely similar.
I answered your question already, I don't know why you want the same answer repeated to you, but here it is:-
''Sousa is a better manager than Laudrup yes, that is an easy one.
Comparing them for Swansea specifically isn't really possible because they managed in different leagues with squads not remotely similar to one another.
But if I were trying to pick a manager next week...
I would look at Sousas record, look at Laudrups record, their league performances would be taken into consideration individually amongst that, as well as some other factors - and I would be picking up the phone and asking if I could speak to Paulo please.'' | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:12 - Feb 26 with 636 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 21:55 - Feb 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
Nothing obtuse about it, I am pointing out you are conflating discussions that are not the same.
Favorite does not mean best. It is not remotely similar.
I answered your question already, I don't know why you want the same answer repeated to you, but here it is:-
''Sousa is a better manager than Laudrup yes, that is an easy one.
Comparing them for Swansea specifically isn't really possible because they managed in different leagues with squads not remotely similar to one another.
But if I were trying to pick a manager next week...
I would look at Sousas record, look at Laudrups record, their league performances would be taken into consideration individually amongst that, as well as some other factors - and I would be picking up the phone and asking if I could speak to Paulo please.'' |
Based on their time at Swansea, would you pick Sousa over Laudrup ?
Even knowing that for Swansea Laudrup got us to ninth place in the EPl and won a major trophy where as Sousa won nothing?
EDIT - Should also have added Laudrup's sides were exciting to watch where as Sousa's side was as dull as dishwater [Post edited 26 Feb 2022 22:14]
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:17 - Feb 26 with 631 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:12 - Feb 26 by STID2017 |
Based on their time at Swansea, would you pick Sousa over Laudrup ?
Even knowing that for Swansea Laudrup got us to ninth place in the EPl and won a major trophy where as Sousa won nothing?
EDIT - Should also have added Laudrup's sides were exciting to watch where as Sousa's side was as dull as dishwater [Post edited 26 Feb 2022 22:14]
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Laudrup's side was exciting to watch for 6 months, then it was pulling eyeballs out kind of stuff (barring the odd game of course).
I wouldn't make a decision based on a comparison like that because they were in different leagues. I would have to look at their career as a whole too.
I would judge them individually by their league record, interview them and go from there if I wasn't allowed to look at anything else. [Post edited 26 Feb 2022 22:19]
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:29 - Feb 26 with 621 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:17 - Feb 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
Laudrup's side was exciting to watch for 6 months, then it was pulling eyeballs out kind of stuff (barring the odd game of course).
I wouldn't make a decision based on a comparison like that because they were in different leagues. I would have to look at their career as a whole too.
I would judge them individually by their league record, interview them and go from there if I wasn't allowed to look at anything else. [Post edited 26 Feb 2022 22:19]
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Interview them ?
Go from there ?
So based on Laudrup managing us in a more difficult division and winning the trophy, I can only assume he is better than Martinez whose only achievement was winning a trophy at a much lower level, as the points per game is an unreliable guide
( I should add I am not proferring this as my view, but just as the only logical conclusion one can come too based on their time at Swansea ) | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:32 - Feb 26 with 610 views | magicdaps10 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:29 - Feb 26 by STID2017 |
Interview them ?
Go from there ?
So based on Laudrup managing us in a more difficult division and winning the trophy, I can only assume he is better than Martinez whose only achievement was winning a trophy at a much lower level, as the points per game is an unreliable guide
( I should add I am not proferring this as my view, but just as the only logical conclusion one can come too based on their time at Swansea ) |
Who was the most successful/best at Swansea?
Sousa or Laudrup?
Easy answer that... Laudrup. |  |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:33 - Feb 26 with 609 views | Gwyn737 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 21:40 - Feb 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
So many factors to take into consideration to what?
Gwyn was discussing ''favorite'' not ''best''. If you had said Laudrup was your favorite manager then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
You are blurring the lines (quite intentionally) between, ''great'', ''good'', ''favorite'', ''better than x,y,z''.
Gwyn is correct yes, but he is discussing something completely different to what you are. |
I definitely was discussing favourite not best.
Depends what you want our of the game that makes either the most important. |  | | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:34 - Feb 26 with 607 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:29 - Feb 26 by STID2017 |
Interview them ?
Go from there ?
So based on Laudrup managing us in a more difficult division and winning the trophy, I can only assume he is better than Martinez whose only achievement was winning a trophy at a much lower level, as the points per game is an unreliable guide
( I should add I am not proferring this as my view, but just as the only logical conclusion one can come too based on their time at Swansea ) |
Yes interview them.
Yes we would then go from there.
Comparisons are tricky beasts with managers in different leagues, I wouldn't recommend doing it to judge who is better.
Points per game is not really a tool for that. It is to assess individual performance rather than a comparison of two managers in different leagues.
That's why it's important you stick with the reason the PPG was brought forward, which was to show your claim that he is ''a great manager'' to be inaccurate.
You are again taking evidence presented against a murder and trying to reject it because it isn't geared to prove theft.
Decide what your claim is, then people can answer based on that specific claim. Currently, you keep changing it. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:38 - Feb 26 with 602 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:32 - Feb 26 by magicdaps10 |
Who was the most successful/best at Swansea?
Sousa or Laudrup?
Easy answer that... Laudrup. |
I thought so too
However it appears that according to the points per game Laudrup was a much poor league manager than those above
It is a bit confusing  | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:39 - Feb 26 with 601 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:38 - Feb 26 by STID2017 |
I thought so too
However it appears that according to the points per game Laudrup was a much poor league manager than those above
It is a bit confusing |
It's not just an appearance - it is a fact. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:45 - Feb 26 with 597 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:33 - Feb 26 by Gwyn737 |
I definitely was discussing favourite not best.
Depends what you want our of the game that makes either the most important. |
Indeed two very different discussions.
One is based on feelings the other is based on results.
If he had said Laudrup was his favorite manager then that's all dandy, if he is saying he is a ''great manager'' then that is quite something else.
His results show otherwise. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:53 - Feb 26 with 590 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:39 - Feb 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
It's not just an appearance - it is a fact. |
I posted
"I thought so too
However it appears that according to the points per game Laudrup was a much poor league manager than those above
It is a bit confusing"
You replied
"It's not just an appearance - it is a fact."
So it would follow then that the same can be said for all the other managers on that list, surely ?
Because of course a man who forms is arguments so well would never apply that to Laudrup and not to the others? | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:03 - Feb 26 with 584 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 22:53 - Feb 26 by STID2017 |
I posted
"I thought so too
However it appears that according to the points per game Laudrup was a much poor league manager than those above
It is a bit confusing"
You replied
"It's not just an appearance - it is a fact."
So it would follow then that the same can be said for all the other managers on that list, surely ?
Because of course a man who forms is arguments so well would never apply that to Laudrup and not to the others? |
What would follow?
You can use that league performance table to assess each manager individually yes, but comparing them in different leagues is a different thing altogether.
This is why I have asked you several times to state what your claim is.
- If your point is Laudrup is a great manager - that table will suffice
- If your point is Laudrup was better than someone else in a different league - then we need to take other things into consideration
This table was brought forward after you claimed he was a ''great manager''.
If you have changed that, then let me know and we can discuss your new claim. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:09 - Feb 26 with 578 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:03 - Feb 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
What would follow?
You can use that league performance table to assess each manager individually yes, but comparing them in different leagues is a different thing altogether.
This is why I have asked you several times to state what your claim is.
- If your point is Laudrup is a great manager - that table will suffice
- If your point is Laudrup was better than someone else in a different league - then we need to take other things into consideration
This table was brought forward after you claimed he was a ''great manager''.
If you have changed that, then let me know and we can discuss your new claim. |
Being obtuse again are we ?
You cannot say it is a fact when talking about Laudrup, but then not about any of the others ?
Either it is a fact ( when relating to Laudrup, therefore all the others) or it isn't ? | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:12 - Feb 26 with 575 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:03 - Feb 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
What would follow?
You can use that league performance table to assess each manager individually yes, but comparing them in different leagues is a different thing altogether.
This is why I have asked you several times to state what your claim is.
- If your point is Laudrup is a great manager - that table will suffice
- If your point is Laudrup was better than someone else in a different league - then we need to take other things into consideration
This table was brought forward after you claimed he was a ''great manager''.
If you have changed that, then let me know and we can discuss your new claim. |
So Laudrup was a better manager than Martinez for Swansea then taking into account the division he managed in and his achievements
Is that correct ?
Or is his PPG the overriding factor ?
Please clarify | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:13 - Feb 26 with 575 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:09 - Feb 26 by STID2017 |
Being obtuse again are we ?
You cannot say it is a fact when talking about Laudrup, but then not about any of the others ?
Either it is a fact ( when relating to Laudrup, therefore all the others) or it isn't ? |
Which part do you think is obtuse? I am starting to think you think obtuse means ''answering my questions accurately''.
I cannot say what is a fact when talking about Laudrup but not for others? If other managers had one of the worst league records in modern history then I would say it about them too, it is not specific to Laudrup.
Again you have to decide what it is you are wanting to prove before anyone can provide adequate proof.
You seem reluctant to commit to what it is you are claiming. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:17 - Feb 26 with 574 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:12 - Feb 26 by STID2017 |
So Laudrup was a better manager than Martinez for Swansea then taking into account the division he managed in and his achievements
Is that correct ?
Or is his PPG the overriding factor ?
Please clarify |
Comparisons between managers managing in different leagues is very difficult to do. Not something I would fancy doing really.
PPG can assess individual performance though.
So if we are discussing if Laudrup is a great manager, we can look at that. If we are discussing if he has a good league record, we can look at that.
If we are looking at comparing managers in different leagues then other factors have to be taken into consideration if you are determining who was best, but that is not something I have discussed.
So you have to decide if you have changed the discussion from Laudrup being a great manager. If so then we need to have a completely different discussion. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:30 - Feb 26 with 568 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:17 - Feb 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
Comparisons between managers managing in different leagues is very difficult to do. Not something I would fancy doing really.
PPG can assess individual performance though.
So if we are discussing if Laudrup is a great manager, we can look at that. If we are discussing if he has a good league record, we can look at that.
If we are looking at comparing managers in different leagues then other factors have to be taken into consideration if you are determining who was best, but that is not something I have discussed.
So you have to decide if you have changed the discussion from Laudrup being a great manager. If so then we need to have a completely different discussion. |
I am asking you after you stated it was a fact ( that based on PPG Laudrup was not as good a manager as Martinez )
So now I am simply asking you does the same fact apply say if we compare Laudrup to Sousa, or Sousa to Martinez ?
No other questions
Simple yes or no would do | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:44 - Feb 26 with 557 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:30 - Feb 26 by STID2017 |
I am asking you after you stated it was a fact ( that based on PPG Laudrup was not as good a manager as Martinez )
So now I am simply asking you does the same fact apply say if we compare Laudrup to Sousa, or Sousa to Martinez ?
No other questions
Simple yes or no would do |
I stated a fact he was a poor league manager.
Reading your post back the error you made is you meant to say ''poorer'' league manager but you said ''poor''.
So to clarify, I am not comparing anyone to anyone else in a different league. That requires a far greater method of comparison due to the different league etc - I have explained that several times.
I am saying Laudrup was a poor league manager and certainly not a great manager. I am also saying he was one of our worst league managers in recent history.
So you have to decide if you are making a comparison point, or if you are making a point that Laudrup was a good/great league manager.
You are yet to commit. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:59 - Feb 26 with 550 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:44 - Feb 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
I stated a fact he was a poor league manager.
Reading your post back the error you made is you meant to say ''poorer'' league manager but you said ''poor''.
So to clarify, I am not comparing anyone to anyone else in a different league. That requires a far greater method of comparison due to the different league etc - I have explained that several times.
I am saying Laudrup was a poor league manager and certainly not a great manager. I am also saying he was one of our worst league managers in recent history.
So you have to decide if you are making a comparison point, or if you are making a point that Laudrup was a good/great league manager.
You are yet to commit. |
So you didn't pick up on the typo first time but now you have not only picked up on it but are trying to use it to get out of what you agreed to was fact ?
If you believe Laudrup was a POORER manager than the others listed above him with higher PPG as you agreed earlier was fact, then that is your belief and that is fine.
I fully accept that is your belief. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 00:04 - Feb 27 with 545 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 23:59 - Feb 26 by STID2017 |
So you didn't pick up on the typo first time but now you have not only picked up on it but are trying to use it to get out of what you agreed to was fact ?
If you believe Laudrup was a POORER manager than the others listed above him with higher PPG as you agreed earlier was fact, then that is your belief and that is fine.
I fully accept that is your belief. |
I didn't pick up on it no, hence why I responded to how it was written at the time.
You then suggested it was a comparison, I went back to read it and realised you had written it incorrectly. I have now clarified that I was not comparing anybody.
That's the issue when you keep changing what the discussion is.
The ''fact'' was in response to what you wrote which was those stats show Laudrup was a poor league manager... which he was.
That is not an opinion, it's a fact. A comparison between two managers managing in different leagues may well be an opinion, but something I have not discussed.
You need to make your mind up if you are claiming that Laudrup is a great manager or if Laudrup is better than (insert manager) - they are different discussions with different metrics.
I am only picking up on you stating he was a great manager - which of course, he isn't. [Post edited 27 Feb 2022 0:31]
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 00:42 - Feb 27 with 531 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 00:04 - Feb 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
I didn't pick up on it no, hence why I responded to how it was written at the time.
You then suggested it was a comparison, I went back to read it and realised you had written it incorrectly. I have now clarified that I was not comparing anybody.
That's the issue when you keep changing what the discussion is.
The ''fact'' was in response to what you wrote which was those stats show Laudrup was a poor league manager... which he was.
That is not an opinion, it's a fact. A comparison between two managers managing in different leagues may well be an opinion, but something I have not discussed.
You need to make your mind up if you are claiming that Laudrup is a great manager or if Laudrup is better than (insert manager) - they are different discussions with different metrics.
I am only picking up on you stating he was a great manager - which of course, he isn't. [Post edited 27 Feb 2022 0:31]
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How can he be a poor league manager when he achieved our second highest EPL finish ?
If it your opinion that is fine.
It is not a fact though?
Many EPL clubs since 1993 would have loved to have finished 9th
If you want to continue to voice your opinion that he was a poor league manager that is fine, but you cannot just say "It is a fact" and make it so
You would have to take in many factors to determine what makes a manager a good or bad one for the club ?
Players available, injuries, transfer pot, player pressure, expectation of the club, expectation of fans, directors.
To describe him as a poor manager based purely on his league results is dismissive
and fails to take in to account other factors.
If it is your opinion, fine, but to reiterate it is not a fact | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 00:48 - Feb 27 with 527 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 00:42 - Feb 27 by STID2017 |
How can he be a poor league manager when he achieved our second highest EPL finish ?
If it your opinion that is fine.
It is not a fact though?
Many EPL clubs since 1993 would have loved to have finished 9th
If you want to continue to voice your opinion that he was a poor league manager that is fine, but you cannot just say "It is a fact" and make it so
You would have to take in many factors to determine what makes a manager a good or bad one for the club ?
Players available, injuries, transfer pot, player pressure, expectation of the club, expectation of fans, directors.
To describe him as a poor manager based purely on his league results is dismissive
and fails to take in to account other factors.
If it is your opinion, fine, but to reiterate it is not a fact |
Because he averaged 1.13 points in the league, one of the worst league records of any manager in recent history.
Most of those points were gained in the honeymoon period before Xmas.
That is just simply a fact.
I didn't say he was a poor manager, I said he was an overrated manager because he certainly is not a ''great manager''. His league record and career as a whole show this to be the case. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 00:57 - Feb 27 with 524 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 00:48 - Feb 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
Because he averaged 1.13 points in the league, one of the worst league records of any manager in recent history.
Most of those points were gained in the honeymoon period before Xmas.
That is just simply a fact.
I didn't say he was a poor manager, I said he was an overrated manager because he certainly is not a ''great manager''. His league record and career as a whole show this to be the case. |
"The ''fact'' was in response to what you wrote which was those stats show Laudrup was a poor league manager... which he was."
Hmm - reading that it clearly says that ( although you should have added IMHO ) "...Laudrup was a poor league manager - which he was"
You have said he was an overrated manager before, but there you said he was a poor manager, but now you deny it ?
Not sure why - both are your opinions which you are entitled to.
Neither are fact though, merely subjective opinions. | |
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