| Match officials today.... 21:05 - Feb 19 with 11591 views | WatfordR |
Either this was the worst collective performance I think I've seen at LR, or the laws of the game are now so convoluted that it's impossible for officials to be wrong no matter what they do.
I'm going to watch the full match back again as and when it's available, but I'm struggling to think of one major decision they got right:
Neither the ref of the lino knew whether the Hull goal had crossed the line - it clearly had
Forss should have been red carded just before half time - ref saw nothing, the fourth official did see something, but presumably not the kick, right in front of him
Albert was completely cleaned out by Ingram and that ought to have been a pen
Albert's goal should have stood - astonishing that neither ref nor linesman apparently saw the deflection that played him on irrespective of where the lino thought he was in the lead up
Countless offside decisions ruled incorrectly, including the ludicrous flagging of Albert in the first half after the crossfield pass which their LB got caught under. It simply isn't possible for the lino to be looking at where Albert was at the same time the ball was played from 50 yards away on the other side of the pitch.
The Ingram incident which I clocked via the scoreboard as having been near enough sixteen minutes. So all the time wasting by them, all the watch pointing by the ref, all that added up to -1 extra minutes.
Clear corner for us just before the end given as a goal kick
Just utter ineptitude. Can't be arsed listening to all the "well these things will even themselves out". I'd rather I wasn't having to keep count of the hopeless decisions and trying to work out whether we won or lost on aggregate over the season. There's enough money in the game to pay and train full time officials so that we don't have to put up with such a lottery of incompetence every single game. [Post edited 19 Feb 2022 21:12]
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| Match officials today.... on 10:51 - Feb 20 with 2035 views | davman |
| Match officials today.... on 10:37 - Feb 20 by WatfordR |
Ok, I'm pretty sure that Pinner Paul has explained all this before, with regards to players in offside positions not being flagged until they touch the ball. If I've got this wrong, my apologies particularly to Pinner.
Being stood in an offside position is not an offence. Makes sense, I don't think anyone would expect a player stood offside receiving a pass from one of the opposition to be flagged.
Had the shot yesterday been turned in directly by Albert, without the opposition touching the ball, and he had been offside in the build up, then it wasn't a goal. However, once the defender deflects the ball, that becomes a new phase of play. The defender having the last touch means that none of our players can be considered offside and the goal should have stood.
I don't think it makes any difference if it's a deflection off a defender, or a misdirected pass from a defender. But actually it's a deliberate effort by the defender to block the shot, rather than a deflection which he knew nothing about. So, as far as I can see, that was a goal, and the only reason that there should have been any doubt about awarding it, is if neither ref or lino saw the defender touch the ball. I cannot understand how the ref could not have seen it from where he was positioned. [Post edited 20 Feb 2022 10:38]
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Well, if you are right, I'll stand corrected, but would say that would be another ridiculous, grey interpretation of an already unnecessarily cloudy rule by the authorities.
"Phases of play" defined by the ball hitting someone is nuts.
If he was offside when the attacker struck the ball, fine, but if he wasn't, he's onside as far as I can see.
On that topic, either our players were incredibly poor at looking across the line yesterday or the officials were as 'kin useless as I always accuse them of being. There were a large number of offsides that didn't feel right to me (I can't say much more than that as I was behind the goal and therefore in teh wrong place to judge for myself...). |  |
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| Match officials today.... on 10:57 - Feb 20 with 1999 views | QPR_John |
| Match officials today.... on 10:37 - Feb 20 by WatfordR |
Ok, I'm pretty sure that Pinner Paul has explained all this before, with regards to players in offside positions not being flagged until they touch the ball. If I've got this wrong, my apologies particularly to Pinner.
Being stood in an offside position is not an offence. Makes sense, I don't think anyone would expect a player stood offside receiving a pass from one of the opposition to be flagged.
Had the shot yesterday been turned in directly by Albert, without the opposition touching the ball, and he had been offside in the build up, then it wasn't a goal. However, once the defender deflects the ball, that becomes a new phase of play. The defender having the last touch means that none of our players can be considered offside and the goal should have stood.
I don't think it makes any difference if it's a deflection off a defender, or a misdirected pass from a defender. But actually it's a deliberate effort by the defender to block the shot, rather than a deflection which he knew nothing about. So, as far as I can see, that was a goal, and the only reason that there should have been any doubt about awarding it, is if neither ref or lino saw the defender touch the ball. I cannot understand how the ref could not have seen it from where he was positioned. [Post edited 20 Feb 2022 10:38]
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That’s exactly how I understand the current interpretation. But of course it is an interpretation and for all we know the powers that be may well have changed it since a similar incident recently. Cannot remember the game but a defender put out a leg and deflected the ball to an attacker clearly in an offside position who scored and the goal was allowed. If a ball comes off a defender who deliberately tried to play it then the attacker is not offside. I think referees have a get out here |  | | |
| Match officials today.... on 11:15 - Feb 20 with 1957 views | WatfordR |
| Match officials today.... on 10:51 - Feb 20 by davman |
Well, if you are right, I'll stand corrected, but would say that would be another ridiculous, grey interpretation of an already unnecessarily cloudy rule by the authorities.
"Phases of play" defined by the ball hitting someone is nuts.
If he was offside when the attacker struck the ball, fine, but if he wasn't, he's onside as far as I can see.
On that topic, either our players were incredibly poor at looking across the line yesterday or the officials were as 'kin useless as I always accuse them of being. There were a large number of offsides that didn't feel right to me (I can't say much more than that as I was behind the goal and therefore in teh wrong place to judge for myself...). |
Definitely agree on several offsides being called wrongly, from SAR it looked like four, maybe five occasions in the second half we were called offside wrongly.
So many other poor decisions made yesterday by officials. Chair booked for pulling someone's shirt on the halfway. Ok. Austin having the shirt pulled off his back in their box in the first half, nothing. Again, difficult to see how the lino doesn't see that looking right across the line. Early on, Austin jumping for an aerial ball with the defender's arm literally wrapped round his neck. Nothing.
Officials stunk the place out yesterday. Just simple decisions beyond them, and the frustration is that it's the same soooo often, no matter who the officials are. | | | |
| Match officials today.... on 11:37 - Feb 20 with 1910 views | supahoopsa |
Lot's of discussion about when is offside actually offside, but I think this photo tells it all
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| Blue & White hooped blood runs through the family |
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| Match officials today.... on 11:41 - Feb 20 with 1893 views | Northernr |
Well, I'd still rather this than VAR. But yeh, the officials were poor yesterday. How you don't send Forss off I don't know, fourth official 5 yards from it and staring straight at it, but that's Trevor Kettle for you, always has been a contrary lunatic.
Not to be too cruel about it but a few years back Tim Robinson was basically the top man in the Championship, a real technical fussy bastrd the type of which the assessors seem to love, obviously gunning for a Premier League promotion. Several referees have gone past him for that promotion since, including some very poor ones like Tony Harrington and Michael Sailsbury (who'd only been on the Champ list a year when he got promoted). Looking at him now, again not to be a dick about it, but his physical conditioning is not where it should be. |  | | |
| Match officials today.... on 11:48 - Feb 20 with 1855 views | paulparker |
The refs condition was a disgrace , he was blowing out of arse after 10 minutes
And talking of linos the one near the paddocks must have been asleep when the Hull player was put through on goal , in my view at the front of Xblock he was at least 5 yards offside |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Match officials today.... on 11:49 - Feb 20 with 1860 views | WatfordR |
| Match officials today.... on 11:41 - Feb 20 by Northernr |
Well, I'd still rather this than VAR. But yeh, the officials were poor yesterday. How you don't send Forss off I don't know, fourth official 5 yards from it and staring straight at it, but that's Trevor Kettle for you, always has been a contrary lunatic.
Not to be too cruel about it but a few years back Tim Robinson was basically the top man in the Championship, a real technical fussy bastrd the type of which the assessors seem to love, obviously gunning for a Premier League promotion. Several referees have gone past him for that promotion since, including some very poor ones like Tony Harrington and Michael Sailsbury (who'd only been on the Champ list a year when he got promoted). Looking at him now, again not to be a dick about it, but his physical conditioning is not where it should be. |
The point about Forss is, the ref hasn't given a free kick there, so the decision is on the fourth official. He's seen an offence, but if it wasn't the kick, what on earth could it have been?
Other than the usual nonsense of giving free kicks every time someone falls over screaming, what has the ref actually seen during the entire match?
Typical out of condition, "middle third is where I live" reffing. Much easier to disallow Albert's goal than huff and puff all the way over to the lino to discuss whether it was actually a valid goal. [Post edited 20 Feb 2022 12:10]
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| Match officials today.... on 11:51 - Feb 20 with 1854 views | Paddyhoops |
| Match officials today.... on 11:41 - Feb 20 by Northernr |
Well, I'd still rather this than VAR. But yeh, the officials were poor yesterday. How you don't send Forss off I don't know, fourth official 5 yards from it and staring straight at it, but that's Trevor Kettle for you, always has been a contrary lunatic.
Not to be too cruel about it but a few years back Tim Robinson was basically the top man in the Championship, a real technical fussy bastrd the type of which the assessors seem to love, obviously gunning for a Premier League promotion. Several referees have gone past him for that promotion since, including some very poor ones like Tony Harrington and Michael Sailsbury (who'd only been on the Champ list a year when he got promoted). Looking at him now, again not to be a dick about it, but his physical conditioning is not where it should be. |
In fairness to him the tight torquise top didn't help.
Wasn't particularly flattering.
Sadly poor officiating is par for the course at this level. | | | |
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| Match officials today.... on 11:55 - Feb 20 with 1845 views | WatfordR |
| Match officials today.... on 11:48 - Feb 20 by paulparker |
The refs condition was a disgrace , he was blowing out of arse after 10 minutes
And talking of linos the one near the paddocks must have been asleep when the Hull player was put through on goal , in my view at the front of Xblock he was at least 5 yards offside |
Re that offside, it's one of the reasons I don't like the idea of linos not flagging til a clearly offside player touches it. He was offside, our players know he's offside, no need to chase back cos he's clearly offside, F*CK HE'S ONSIDE!!!!
And on the other side of it, sooner or later defenders are going to work out that it's a free go at taking out an attacker, and someone's going to end up seriously injured. | | | |
| Match officials today.... on 11:56 - Feb 20 with 1838 views | Northernr |
| Match officials today.... on 11:55 - Feb 20 by WatfordR |
Re that offside, it's one of the reasons I don't like the idea of linos not flagging til a clearly offside player touches it. He was offside, our players know he's offside, no need to chase back cos he's clearly offside, F*CK HE'S ONSIDE!!!!
And on the other side of it, sooner or later defenders are going to work out that it's a free go at taking out an attacker, and someone's going to end up seriously injured. |
That's already happened in one of our games this year, somebody cracked through Chair I think over by X Block when they knew he was offside and it was a free hit. Everton maybe? | | | |
| Match officials today.... on 12:06 - Feb 20 with 1784 views | Northernr |
Just watched the Albert goal back, and whether he's level or not a Hull player in the box plays at the ball and diverts it to him, is that not starting a new phase of play? Even if he is offside to begin with, which is debatable, "it's not an offence to be standing in an offside position" we keep being told and the Hull lad diverts the ball to him. Interested to hear from the actual referees on here about that. | | | |
| Match officials today.... on 12:15 - Feb 20 with 1758 views | WatfordR |
| Match officials today.... on 10:37 - Feb 20 by WatfordR |
Ok, I'm pretty sure that Pinner Paul has explained all this before, with regards to players in offside positions not being flagged until they touch the ball. If I've got this wrong, my apologies particularly to Pinner.
Being stood in an offside position is not an offence. Makes sense, I don't think anyone would expect a player stood offside receiving a pass from one of the opposition to be flagged.
Had the shot yesterday been turned in directly by Albert, without the opposition touching the ball, and he had been offside in the build up, then it wasn't a goal. However, once the defender deflects the ball, that becomes a new phase of play. The defender having the last touch means that none of our players can be considered offside and the goal should have stood.
I don't think it makes any difference if it's a deflection off a defender, or a misdirected pass from a defender. But actually it's a deliberate effort by the defender to block the shot, rather than a deflection which he knew nothing about. So, as far as I can see, that was a goal, and the only reason that there should have been any doubt about awarding it, is if neither ref or lino saw the defender touch the ball. I cannot understand how the ref could not have seen it from where he was positioned. [Post edited 20 Feb 2022 10:38]
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Christ Clive, I don't know why I bother  | | | |
| Match officials today.... on 12:16 - Feb 20 with 1755 views | Northernr |
| Match officials today.... on 12:15 - Feb 20 by WatfordR |
Christ Clive, I don't know why I bother |
Sorry mate, I started the thread at the end rather than the beginning 
We await Pinner's judgement... | | | |
| Match officials today.... on 12:29 - Feb 20 with 1717 views | mikechaj |
What about 4 subs for Hull? Did anyone else count 4 including the keeper? Or am I going senile? I thought only three were allowed this season. BBC website also shows 4. | | | |
| Match officials today.... on 12:30 - Feb 20 with 1708 views | kensalriser |
Why is it a free hit on an attacking player if he's offside? If it's dangerous or violent play the perpetrator is surely still subject to the laws of the game in the same way that if he walked over and punched an opponent in the mouth after the whistle had gone (subject to competent refereeing)? |  |
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| Match officials today.... on 12:34 - Feb 20 with 1701 views | Northernr |
| Match officials today.... on 12:29 - Feb 20 by mikechaj |
What about 4 subs for Hull? Did anyone else count 4 including the keeper? Or am I going senile? I thought only three were allowed this season. BBC website also shows 4. |
You get an extra one for concussion I think. | | | |
| Match officials today.... on 12:34 - Feb 20 with 1698 views | Northernr |
| Match officials today.... on 12:30 - Feb 20 by kensalriser |
Why is it a free hit on an attacking player if he's offside? If it's dangerous or violent play the perpetrator is surely still subject to the laws of the game in the same way that if he walked over and punched an opponent in the mouth after the whistle had gone (subject to competent refereeing)? |
Shouldn't be, but feels like it. | | | |
| Match officials today.... on 13:10 - Feb 20 with 1624 views | WatfordR |
| Match officials today.... on 12:30 - Feb 20 by kensalriser |
Why is it a free hit on an attacking player if he's offside? If it's dangerous or violent play the perpetrator is surely still subject to the laws of the game in the same way that if he walked over and punched an opponent in the mouth after the whistle had gone (subject to competent refereeing)? |
"Oh ref, I was making a last ditch tackle cos I thought he was through on goal. If I knew he was offside, I wouldn't have gone near him. Honest guv...." | | | |
| Match officials today.... on 13:25 - Feb 20 with 1590 views | robith |
Not one for critiquing officials as we were our own worst enemies yesterday, but they were noticeably poor I thought |  | | |
| Match officials today.... on 14:18 - Feb 20 with 1516 views | PinnerPaul |
| Match officials today.... on 22:20 - Feb 19 by stevec |
I was there and I’m not sure why the ref is getting so much stick.
It was the lino’s fault if Albert was onside, it was also the Lino who missed Hulls goal not the ref, yes Forss could have been sent off but from the angle the fourth official would have had a better view than the ref. Albert was not cleaned out by Ingram, Albert was on the blind side and if anything the ref could easily have given a free kick the other way. Ingram was laid out for 12 minutes so 15 overall was about right and finally our player was the last to touch for the goal kick the ref gave near the end. |
I was just going to post all that Steve!
A deflection makes no difference to offside, looks tight on Clive's still on twitter, but the deflection has nothing to do with it. Their player definitely off in Clive's 2nd still, but maybe ref/AR thought our player played the ball (NOT a deflection) ?, if he didn't that one's obviously wrong.
Officials never give these on the line ones with GLT - what's the point in hvaing it if you're not going to use it????!!!!!!!!
I thought ref was OK - 15 mins was bang on as you say.
I would have cautioned Hull player for booting the ball the whole length of the field, that's an obvious yellow missed.
The 3 big in/out calls near the end - 2 GK v corner and Alberts throw in, were all spot on from my angle in T block.
Other offside calls all looked OK to me. | | | |
| Match officials today.... on 14:19 - Feb 20 with 1507 views | PinnerPaul |
| Match officials today.... on 22:41 - Feb 19 by WatfordR |
In fairness, this thread isn't just about the ref, it's about all four officials.
Albert's goal, well the lino may have wrongly thought he was offside, but if the ref hasn't seen the defender deflect the ball, I've no idea what he could possibly have been watching. If he sees it, he has to overrule the linesman because where Albert was at any stage is irrelevant.
The Ingram incident, Ingram was never getting the ball, knew he wasn't getting it, and knew Albert was coming in, and made sure he impeded Albert.
Thirdly, I don't care what the official timing on Ingram's treatment was, the clock on the scoreboard said 51+ minutes when the incident occurred, and 67+ minutes when he finally left the pitch
Fourthly, the Hull goalies had been wasting time on kickouts all bloody second half, and their team generally wasting time with throw ins , that fat pr1ck of a ref had been tapping his watch on every occasion to suggest he was adding time and three minutes was ridiculous, it ought to have been at least twice that.
And finally, the last player to touch the ball late on was most certainly theirs and it was a corner, but the ref once again got a decision wrong.
The officials as a team were just embarrassingly bad, and as I say, with the money sloshing about in football, it's time we had full time professionals officiating, not out of condition part timers. [Post edited 19 Feb 2022 22:45]
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The deflection is the bit that is irrelevant - makes no difference. | | | |
| Match officials today.... on 14:20 - Feb 20 with 1502 views | PinnerPaul |
| Match officials today.... on 22:41 - Feb 19 by WatfordR |
In fairness, this thread isn't just about the ref, it's about all four officials.
Albert's goal, well the lino may have wrongly thought he was offside, but if the ref hasn't seen the defender deflect the ball, I've no idea what he could possibly have been watching. If he sees it, he has to overrule the linesman because where Albert was at any stage is irrelevant.
The Ingram incident, Ingram was never getting the ball, knew he wasn't getting it, and knew Albert was coming in, and made sure he impeded Albert.
Thirdly, I don't care what the official timing on Ingram's treatment was, the clock on the scoreboard said 51+ minutes when the incident occurred, and 67+ minutes when he finally left the pitch
Fourthly, the Hull goalies had been wasting time on kickouts all bloody second half, and their team generally wasting time with throw ins , that fat pr1ck of a ref had been tapping his watch on every occasion to suggest he was adding time and three minutes was ridiculous, it ought to have been at least twice that.
And finally, the last player to touch the ball late on was most certainly theirs and it was a corner, but the ref once again got a decision wrong.
The officials as a team were just embarrassingly bad, and as I say, with the money sloshing about in football, it's time we had full time professionals officiating, not out of condition part timers. [Post edited 19 Feb 2022 22:45]
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Oh and the PGMOL officials ARE full time. | | | |
| Match officials today.... on 14:22 - Feb 20 with 1485 views | OldPedro |
| Match officials today.... on 14:19 - Feb 20 by PinnerPaul |
The deflection is the bit that is irrelevant - makes no difference. |
Is it a deflection? The defender makes a deliberate attempt to play the ball |  |
| Extra mature cheddar......a simple cheese for a simple man |
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| Match officials today.... on 14:25 - Feb 20 with 1471 views | PinnerPaul |
| Match officials today.... on 07:35 - Feb 20 by ozranger |
I'm sorry but I cannot let this continue. Where's Pinner?
Since when did the off-side rule alter? If a player is in an offside position at the time when the ball was initially kicked by a team-mate then that player is off-side if he then participates or interferes with play, irrelevant if there is a deflection, no matter how much that deflection is.
Say an attacker stands on the six yard box with everyone else bar the keeper outside the penalty box. A shot is taken from distance and it is deflected off a defender to that attacker on the six yard box who then puts the ball in the net. You are now saying he was not offside because the initial shot was deflected off a defender. Not in my book and to my knowledge not in any refereeing book either.
Now, I am not saying that Albert was in an offside position at the time when Willock took his shot, but if he was, he was offside as he immediately took advantage of being there to then participate in the attack. |
Here I am - yep you're correct.
It only negates offside it its played deliberately by a defender, so attacker plays a pass, defender attempts to deliberately head it back to GK for example, attacker who intercepts it, even if offside when pass was made is OK.
Only exception (yes you knew there had to be one) is when GK makes a save, if attacker is offside when its taken, as we know that is offside,.
[Post edited 20 Feb 2022 14:42]
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| Match officials today.... on 14:29 - Feb 20 with 1465 views | PinnerPaul |
| Match officials today.... on 08:47 - Feb 20 by Mick_S |
I think you are right, oz. I’m not sure as many of the rules now confuse me. I believe the deflection is irrelevant if a player is in an offside position. Using your analogy, the player would have not been offside if he received the ball via a bad back pass by an opposing player ie no deflection. I think.
PINNER! Ou est-tu? |
Yep!
I was at the game folks and came home to a house full of children and grandchildren and with a dose of man flu I had no games last week or today so taking a break from refereeing matters for a few hours!
Wanted to read everyone's thoughts on our performance but can't get past this thread!  | | | |
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