| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 18:25 - Nov 18 with 2542 views | union_jack |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 17:46 - Nov 18 by johnlangy |
Why should putting forward an argument for Independence put you off ? Because we argue for it doesn't mean it's going to happen any time soon. We know that as much as anyone.
If Ein Gwlad managed to get an AM or two elected at the next WAG election it wouldn't change anything. Things would only change when there is a sizeable support for it (as you say). If that sizeable support translated into a majority in the Sennedd then that's different.
In the meantime, when people like me, and many others, debunk the financial argument that people believe means Wales couldn't afford to be Independent, just take the points in and accept them if they make sense to you. Or point out if they don't make sense. |
Personally I couldn't vote for a party who has an agenda at its heart to which I fundamentally disagree. PC are in the same boat.
Now, come up with a party who wants to support Wales as a whole not just the city state that is Cardiff and categorically states that Wales's place sits within the UK and not alone, then I'll put my cross in their box on the ballot sheet. |  |
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| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 21:13 - Nov 18 with 2500 views | byron |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 16:57 - Nov 18 by Private_Partz |
Agree 100%......and you could take that effing Assembly with you. Have an up arrow. ;-) [Post edited 18 Nov 2018 16:59]
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Hey now pp, we didn’t want the phucks remember, we voted no, you begged for the phuckers down your way and we still ended up with them. Shitoutaluck |  |
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| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 22:04 - Nov 18 with 2481 views | Private_Partz |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 21:13 - Nov 18 by byron |
Hey now pp, we didn’t want the phucks remember, we voted no, you begged for the phuckers down your way and we still ended up with them. Shitoutaluck |
You did not want them but you got them nevertheless. You should be very, very grateful for the riches bestowed on you. You would not have got them otherwise.
I suspect I would have had a different view had they come to the Guildhall and invested on their doorstep like they have done in Cardiff Bay. Particularly if I had been fed the media BS that you have had.
I am older and wiser now. Would not want the tw@ts near here regardless. At least until the electorate wake up and vote for politicians that actually give an eff about the whole of Wales. |  |
| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 08:40 - Nov 19 with 2415 views | CopperJack |
As a side note, I did email Julie James about the hospital. I'm expecting the 'we invest loads in Swansea - look at this new road we built' etc. But, we'll see. Start to think that fighting for Swansea is a lost cause - the population and the politicians want to damn it to eternal poverty |  |
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| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 09:09 - Nov 19 with 2403 views | Private_Partz |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 08:40 - Nov 19 by CopperJack |
As a side note, I did email Julie James about the hospital. I'm expecting the 'we invest loads in Swansea - look at this new road we built' etc. But, we'll see. Start to think that fighting for Swansea is a lost cause - the population and the politicians want to damn it to eternal poverty |
It is certainky the case with the politicians CJ. It is complacency with many of the electorate. A shrug of the shoulders followed by 'Cardiff get everything' seems to be the order of the day.
All is not lost though. Looking on Twitter I see there are many on there who share our views.
There is still a long way to go but don't give up the fight. This is a large forum and the message gets out to thousands on Twitter. Also taking our esteemed local politicians to task does help.
The fight goes on. We just need a lot more to join the army ;-) | |
| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 09:10 - Nov 19 with 2401 views | johnlangy |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 18:25 - Nov 18 by union_jack |
Personally I couldn't vote for a party who has an agenda at its heart to which I fundamentally disagree. PC are in the same boat.
Now, come up with a party who wants to support Wales as a whole not just the city state that is Cardiff and categorically states that Wales's place sits within the UK and not alone, then I'll put my cross in their box on the ballot sheet. |
No problem with any of that. | | | |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 09:29 - Nov 19 with 2393 views | pikeypaul |
130 AFLI
SIUYRL [Post edited 19 Nov 2018 9:30]
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| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 09:29 - Nov 19 with 2392 views | Private_Partz |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 09:10 - Nov 19 by johnlangy |
No problem with any of that. |
I think the main driver must be a Party that governs for the whole of Wales. Independence will follow naturally if Westminster continue to cock things up and the Union falls apart.
I currently dispair at the choices of First Minister.
Make Drakeford. Pros: Corbyn Supporter. Not keen on the new motorway. 2 billion and counting now btw.
Cons. Hapless, achieved nothing, Cardiff am.
Elunid Morgan. Pros: Recognises there is a Cardiff Bay Bubble.
Cons: would let Complacent Carwyn make a decision on the motorway before he retires. Almost guarantees t will happen.
Vaughan Gethin: Pros and Cons: a crease in his scrotum from sitting on the fence.
I would be grateful if anyone has anything to offer on this trio. | |
| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 09:30 - Nov 19 with 2391 views | Catullus |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 17:46 - Nov 18 by johnlangy |
Why should putting forward an argument for Independence put you off ? Because we argue for it doesn't mean it's going to happen any time soon. We know that as much as anyone.
If Ein Gwlad managed to get an AM or two elected at the next WAG election it wouldn't change anything. Things would only change when there is a sizeable support for it (as you say). If that sizeable support translated into a majority in the Sennedd then that's different.
In the meantime, when people like me, and many others, debunk the financial argument that people believe means Wales couldn't afford to be Independent, just take the points in and accept them if they make sense to you. Or point out if they don't make sense. |
Like union, I can't support a party with whom I basically disagree on a huge point. If I choose 'Ein Gwlad' it's taken as support for independence.
Your points about the Welsh financial position make sense but, as with so many things, they are things I am unsure of. I am stuck in the middle and need more information otherwise I'll be stickinh with my default position that we need English money.
I guess it's sort of like the claims about the EU, remainers claim we are better off inside that organisation and I am a UK unionist, I believe us better off as a United Kingdom.
I worry that investment and jobs will be lost if we went independent and that the losses, financially, will put us into a downward spiral. Ironic really because I believe the opposite about leaving the EU. That's because the UK is the world's 5th biggest economy but the vast majority of that is English money, Wales is a fairly insignificant proportion of UK GDP.
I'll stand by my main position, that we need fewer politicians, we should do away with the WG, that more politicians we allow to exist the worst the world seems to get, the more politicians we have only seems to drive even more divisions amongst us. This country has never been so divided in the modern age. It's not been this bad since Edward Longshanks days!! | |
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| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 11:44 - Nov 19 with 2366 views | johnlangy |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 09:30 - Nov 19 by Catullus |
Like union, I can't support a party with whom I basically disagree on a huge point. If I choose 'Ein Gwlad' it's taken as support for independence.
Your points about the Welsh financial position make sense but, as with so many things, they are things I am unsure of. I am stuck in the middle and need more information otherwise I'll be stickinh with my default position that we need English money.
I guess it's sort of like the claims about the EU, remainers claim we are better off inside that organisation and I am a UK unionist, I believe us better off as a United Kingdom.
I worry that investment and jobs will be lost if we went independent and that the losses, financially, will put us into a downward spiral. Ironic really because I believe the opposite about leaving the EU. That's because the UK is the world's 5th biggest economy but the vast majority of that is English money, Wales is a fairly insignificant proportion of UK GDP.
I'll stand by my main position, that we need fewer politicians, we should do away with the WG, that more politicians we allow to exist the worst the world seems to get, the more politicians we have only seems to drive even more divisions amongst us. This country has never been so divided in the modern age. It's not been this bad since Edward Longshanks days!! |
The first para is a fair point. The second doesn't make sense, at least to me.
If my points about the Welsh financial position make sense then that means we don't need English money. I've made the point a number of times that the real Welsh Fiscal Deficit is £3 or 4 billion. Are you saying that deficit is made up by English money ? It isn't because England runs on a fiscal deficit also.
The UK Fiscal Deficit is still £50 billion. A Welsh share of that (5% by population) would be £2.5 billion now anyway. And the English share by population would be £40 billion plus. So the UK Government makes up the shortfall by borrowing that money on the World financial markets.
And almost every country in the World runs on a deficit. Wales is/would be no different. | | | |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 10:26 - Nov 20 with 2275 views | Catullus |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 11:44 - Nov 19 by johnlangy |
The first para is a fair point. The second doesn't make sense, at least to me.
If my points about the Welsh financial position make sense then that means we don't need English money. I've made the point a number of times that the real Welsh Fiscal Deficit is £3 or 4 billion. Are you saying that deficit is made up by English money ? It isn't because England runs on a fiscal deficit also.
The UK Fiscal Deficit is still £50 billion. A Welsh share of that (5% by population) would be £2.5 billion now anyway. And the English share by population would be £40 billion plus. So the UK Government makes up the shortfall by borrowing that money on the World financial markets.
And almost every country in the World runs on a deficit. Wales is/would be no different. |
You don't understand? What I am saying is that if what you say is true then fair enough but I don't have the evidence to prove you are correct. It could just be your opinion.
You have just admitted that our deficit is 3/4 billion whilst our share of the UK deficit would be around 2.5 billion, that means the Englsih do subsidise us and we do get more per capita funding than most of England. Ihave looked at GDP, the UK has a GDP of 2.622 trillion yet Welsh GDP is put at only around 62 billion, how much of our tax money do you say is put down as English? What is that figure? How much does it add to our GDP and can you prove that fact? | |
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| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 12:59 - Nov 20 with 2260 views | valleyboy |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 16:05 - Nov 15 by CopperJack |
Welsh people are too thick to realise it's unacceptable. Only Wales would continue to vote in a government that fails in education, health, the economy, pretty much everything, with ever increasing majorities.
This will continue forever, because Welsh people will never break out of their apathy to stop it happening. Red sash + donkey = Welsh people voting for them. |
Exactly
It just shows how thick some people are, in that they vote someone like Carolyn Harris in as a Member of Parliament
It’s no wonder that people laugh at us
You must rember as well, that out of the 3 million population of Wales, 70% of them live in the East of Wales | | | |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 18:56 - Nov 21 with 2159 views | johnlangy |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 10:26 - Nov 20 by Catullus |
You don't understand? What I am saying is that if what you say is true then fair enough but I don't have the evidence to prove you are correct. It could just be your opinion.
You have just admitted that our deficit is 3/4 billion whilst our share of the UK deficit would be around 2.5 billion, that means the Englsih do subsidise us and we do get more per capita funding than most of England. Ihave looked at GDP, the UK has a GDP of 2.622 trillion yet Welsh GDP is put at only around 62 billion, how much of our tax money do you say is put down as English? What is that figure? How much does it add to our GDP and can you prove that fact? |
We all have to decide at some point whether what we've read is real or not and form opinions on that.
Some time ago I read a booklet called The Welsh Budget written by Professor Phil Williams which details how Welsh Revenue and Expenditure is measured by the government. The booklet is twenty years old now but is particularly relevant because it was produced at the time the first enormous, supposed Welsh Deficit appeared. This 'deficit' appeared in the 94/95 financial year.
In the booklet he looked back at all the reports on the Welsh economy since the 50's. Each and every one of them showed the economy being more or less in balance.
Then, all of a sudden, in 94/95 out of nowhere came a 'deficit' of £5.7 billion. In the booklet he dissects the numbers and explains how 'non-identifiable' expenditure is allocated to the nations and regions of the UK purely on a population percentage, never minding where the money is ACTUALLY spent.
He then talks about Welsh Revenue and how much Welsh tax is paid but registered in England. And there is also a very interesting section on how the UK Government treats EU funding to Wales.
Annually around £2.3 billion pounds is allocated as Welsh Expenditure to cover our 5% of the cost of defence. Very little of that is spent in Wales. If it was it would be a huge annual, not one-off, boost to the Welsh economy. If Wales became Independant and we started to spend on defence at a similar rate to Ireland the Welsh defence bill would be about £300 million. So, straightaway the deficit is down to around the £2.5 billion mark.
I read something interesting recently about GDP figures. GDP is allocated to a complete item where that item is produced. So, if an engine from Fords Bridgend is installed in a Ford car built in Dagenham the £20,000 or whatever of the cost of the car is allocated as GDP in England. The value of the engine is not allocated as Welsh GDP. Just a snippet i'll throw in there. I've no idea how the numbers would work out.
I haven't a clue how much of our tax is put down as English. I know Tesco, for example, register Welsh VAT and Corp tax at their HQ in Hertfordshire and I know that Tesco sales in Wales are around the £3 billion mark so the amount is huge. And they are just one company. | | | |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 21:12 - Nov 21 with 2123 views | Catullus |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 18:56 - Nov 21 by johnlangy |
We all have to decide at some point whether what we've read is real or not and form opinions on that.
Some time ago I read a booklet called The Welsh Budget written by Professor Phil Williams which details how Welsh Revenue and Expenditure is measured by the government. The booklet is twenty years old now but is particularly relevant because it was produced at the time the first enormous, supposed Welsh Deficit appeared. This 'deficit' appeared in the 94/95 financial year.
In the booklet he looked back at all the reports on the Welsh economy since the 50's. Each and every one of them showed the economy being more or less in balance.
Then, all of a sudden, in 94/95 out of nowhere came a 'deficit' of £5.7 billion. In the booklet he dissects the numbers and explains how 'non-identifiable' expenditure is allocated to the nations and regions of the UK purely on a population percentage, never minding where the money is ACTUALLY spent.
He then talks about Welsh Revenue and how much Welsh tax is paid but registered in England. And there is also a very interesting section on how the UK Government treats EU funding to Wales.
Annually around £2.3 billion pounds is allocated as Welsh Expenditure to cover our 5% of the cost of defence. Very little of that is spent in Wales. If it was it would be a huge annual, not one-off, boost to the Welsh economy. If Wales became Independant and we started to spend on defence at a similar rate to Ireland the Welsh defence bill would be about £300 million. So, straightaway the deficit is down to around the £2.5 billion mark.
I read something interesting recently about GDP figures. GDP is allocated to a complete item where that item is produced. So, if an engine from Fords Bridgend is installed in a Ford car built in Dagenham the £20,000 or whatever of the cost of the car is allocated as GDP in England. The value of the engine is not allocated as Welsh GDP. Just a snippet i'll throw in there. I've no idea how the numbers would work out.
I haven't a clue how much of our tax is put down as English. I know Tesco, for example, register Welsh VAT and Corp tax at their HQ in Hertfordshire and I know that Tesco sales in Wales are around the £3 billion mark so the amount is huge. And they are just one company. |
There you go see, more evidence of a Westminster rip off!! I'd like to see that leaflet. Actually we need a new one.
There again, is it all about money? I didn'y vote to leave the EU because money or the financial side was my biggest concern....I'm complicated!
Though I suppose being on the West side of England makes us safer (security wise) than most small European countries. There is so much to it and it's not an easy answer. At the end of the argument, I still consider myself British too. Ironically, when I left school and applied to join the army I had quite strong, youthful nationalistic tendencies!! | |
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| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 09:47 - Nov 22 with 2069 views | johnlangy |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 21:12 - Nov 21 by Catullus |
There you go see, more evidence of a Westminster rip off!! I'd like to see that leaflet. Actually we need a new one.
There again, is it all about money? I didn'y vote to leave the EU because money or the financial side was my biggest concern....I'm complicated!
Though I suppose being on the West side of England makes us safer (security wise) than most small European countries. There is so much to it and it's not an easy answer. At the end of the argument, I still consider myself British too. Ironically, when I left school and applied to join the army I had quite strong, youthful nationalistic tendencies!! |
The booklet is published by Y Lolfa and is called 'The Welsh Budget' (written by Phil Williams as I say).
It only costs a few pounds. Well worth buying a copy to get an understanding of how these things work .  . | | | |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 10:09 - Nov 22 with 2062 views | Catullus |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 09:47 - Nov 22 by johnlangy |
The booklet is published by Y Lolfa and is called 'The Welsh Budget' (written by Phil Williams as I say).
It only costs a few pounds. Well worth buying a copy to get an understanding of how these things work . . |
I looked that up, it's £2 so I may get it but there's another problem, reading the blurb alongside it, it's written from the angle of supporting Welsh independence, it has an agenda. That's the issue, just like with Brexit there was no unbiased honest information, this leaflet could easi;y be the same kind of thing, information with an agenda so not fair or equal in it's views and opinions.
Then I looked up Professor Williams and find he was the chair of Plaid Cymru, so a man with an agenda for independence.
I could read the leaflet/book but why should I give it any more credence than anything the Guardian or Daily Mail spout? | |
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| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 10:29 - Nov 22 with 2049 views | trampie |
Catullus you believe what you are fed by the state, most education is state run, most media is pro state, children are brought up by parents been brought up in a state run system.
The English run UK is broken beyond repair, its time for the union state to be broken up and each part run in the interests of people from each area.
City states is a World wide phenomenon, but its a policy actively pursued by Labour and the Tories, they want to centralise authority and create and support an elite to run things, Thatcher started and Labours Blair continued it, the founding fathers of Labour will be turning in their graves at the way Labour has abandoned the working class and poor. |  |
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| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 10:42 - Nov 22 with 2047 views | Catullus |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 10:29 - Nov 22 by trampie |
Catullus you believe what you are fed by the state, most education is state run, most media is pro state, children are brought up by parents been brought up in a state run system.
The English run UK is broken beyond repair, its time for the union state to be broken up and each part run in the interests of people from each area.
City states is a World wide phenomenon, but its a policy actively pursued by Labour and the Tories, they want to centralise authority and create and support an elite to run things, Thatcher started and Labours Blair continued it, the founding fathers of Labour will be turning in their graves at the way Labour has abandoned the working class and poor. |
So that's how you see my distrust of all politicians? You believe what Plaid Cymru tell you, which one of us is the biggest mug?
When I vote I make the best choice I can at the time, I read information and try to see through the spin which is darn near impossible these days, but I try and I'm right and wrong in equal measure. A lot of things have to be taken on face value until evidence shows otherwise and a lot of things are blatantly stupid (like Tomlinsons suggestion to sub let) but I basically don't like or trust career politicians, Adam Price fits that category. I left school 34 years ago, before our education system became an indoctrination system and I ofetn question things my son is told at school and debate the alternative with him.
That leads me to you and your love of the EU, you say I believe the state yet you are an EU supporting nationalist. You believe what the EU tell you, the EU are as much the state these days as any government. | |
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| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 11:10 - Nov 22 with 2036 views | trampie |
| Cardiff will not stop until they have stolen everything Wales has on 10:42 - Nov 22 by Catullus |
So that's how you see my distrust of all politicians? You believe what Plaid Cymru tell you, which one of us is the biggest mug?
When I vote I make the best choice I can at the time, I read information and try to see through the spin which is darn near impossible these days, but I try and I'm right and wrong in equal measure. A lot of things have to be taken on face value until evidence shows otherwise and a lot of things are blatantly stupid (like Tomlinsons suggestion to sub let) but I basically don't like or trust career politicians, Adam Price fits that category. I left school 34 years ago, before our education system became an indoctrination system and I ofetn question things my son is told at school and debate the alternative with him.
That leads me to you and your love of the EU, you say I believe the state yet you are an EU supporting nationalist. You believe what the EU tell you, the EU are as much the state these days as any government. |
I don't blindly believe what any party tells me, I have never been a member of any party but am tempted by a free offer.
Price packed in politics [although he was seen as the best politician in Westminster by people that give out awards] to go to Havard, that doesn't sound like a career politician.
I was in school at that time and it was all state propaganda, they never taught Welsh history, all English led Britain this and that, I learned about history and goodies and baddies and historical rights and wrongs away from the classroom.
I didn't vote for the EU. | |
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