| Black managers 22:35 - Oct 30 with 22830 views | zxcvbnm |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34673088
Not being racist but surely it has to be a case of if you’re good enough you’ll get the job, this sort of ‘positive discrimination’ can be reverse racist (if that makes sense)
If someone like Jimmy-Floyd at Burton carries on the way he’s started then he’ll get his chance at a bigger club. There’s a reason Keith Curle hasn’t managed at the highest level the same reason that Steve Parkin didn’t, not quite good enough. The colour of skin doesn’t matter. |  |
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| Black managers on 11:11 - Nov 4 with 2581 views | jav14 |
Well now that Chrs Powell has been sacked by Huddersfield, will it now be call of racism or the fact his record there speaks for itself and he just wasn't good enough? |  | | |
| Black managers on 11:21 - Nov 4 with 2563 views | 442Dale |
| Black managers on 11:11 - Nov 4 by jav14 |
Well now that Chrs Powell has been sacked by Huddersfield, will it now be call of racism or the fact his record there speaks for itself and he just wasn't good enough? |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34245530
Safe to say many fans weren't really expecting it or that he was doing too badly on the resources he had. Hasselbaink is the current favourite to takeover.
Mark Lillis being assisted by Eyre and Bunn in the meantime. |  |
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| Black managers on 11:41 - Nov 4 with 2537 views | Bobbyjoe |
What's demonstrably clear, though, is that black ex-players are either less talented at football management than their white counterparts, or they're not getting a fair crack of the whip. |  | | |
| Black managers on 11:57 - Nov 4 with 2515 views | dingdangblue |
| Black managers on 11:41 - Nov 4 by Bobbyjoe |
What's demonstrably clear, though, is that black ex-players are either less talented at football management than their white counterparts, or they're not getting a fair crack of the whip. |
I'm not sure talent even comes into it. The way the leagues work its just a fact that there are going to be good managers currently at the bottom of the league. They get sacked - get another job and do well for a while - then get sacked. And so on and so forth. I think the percentage of black players in England is 25%. There's certainly not 25% of managers black. |  |
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| Black managers on 12:20 - Nov 4 with 2488 views | SuddenLad |
Dancdale: "Those who disagree are naive/ignorant as to true facts, and perhaps should educate themselves on matters before making incredibly weak, but still potentially damaging posts"
It's that kind of garbage that is the problem. Your claim that those who disagree with you are 'uneducated' or ignorant' is both ridiculous and untrue.
They disagree with you, because they live in the real world, not because they lift claptrap ideas out of text books which have no relevance in the real world . True facts ??
Potentially damaging.?? To whom and why ?
Chris Powell has been sacked because he has failed to achieve what was expected of him, in the position he holds, by the people who employed him to do better.
The same applies to Russ Wilcox at York, Richard Money at Cambridge, Terry Butcher at Newport etc, etc.,
They failed because they lacked the ability, talent and/or expertise to maintain the standards expected of them.
Only someone with a divisive agenda would seek to claim otherwise and for spurious reasons. [Post edited 4 Nov 2015 12:30]
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| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Black managers on 15:41 - Nov 4 with 2385 views | TTNYear |
This also opens up a can of worms and where does this stop , a certain percentage of homosexuals, disabled, women etc have to be inclusive in this selection process, no doubt our Dancy boy and Porlicks will fully be behind that. Not that the above should be excluded I might add. Like the majority on here, if your good enough... you get the job. Even if a Jamaican, wheelchair bound lesbian, who has a penchant for bestiality, rolls up (pun intended) at the doors at Spotland... at least the lift will get used.
Oh and R17 ALE, 'who do you think you are Dancdale?' I'll guess at 'we all do it (even ethnic minorities) and it isn't dirty'. He's got form on that front. [Post edited 4 Nov 2015 16:29]
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| Anti-cliquism is the last refuge of the messageboard scoundrel - Copyright Dorset Dale productions |
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| Black managers on 21:55 - Nov 4 with 2255 views | zxcvbnm |
Not a good day for managers today, Powell as mentioned above gone and now Ramsay fired at QPR. Colin in charge | |
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| Black managers on 00:08 - Nov 5 with 2176 views | dancdale |
I shall try to explain my view again, without causing such apparent personal offence
Evidence shows a clear statistical anomaly with respect to race, sufficient to conclude that discrimination is highly likely to exist somewhere in the system. Thats not based on my opinion, its based on a substantive fact existent in real world data. It is data from which it can be reasonably deduced that actually 20% of jobs dont have the potentially best person due to issues of race.
Its an issue which many more studies have established occurs across society, and as the evidence indicates theres no reason to think football any different, it forms part of that wider issue. So I consider we are equally discussing the issue of ethnic discrimination in employment generally and dont think its something that should be lightly dismissed.
Its a problem, and part of that problem are those who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge it happens anymore. The large number of posts casually dismissing any possible notion of its existance, regardless of the evidence, simply because they choose to think otherwise isnt a rational position to hold, and has the damaging effect of adding to an accepted consensus that no problem exists.
I consider the notion that skin colour plays no role in the levels of opportunity, almost certainly ignorant of the evidence and naive to the reality, which is why I stated it as such. Previous posts, including those of others have explained as to why.
I suggested those dismissing the issue dont have a clue as to the reality, because it is highly likely they dont - they have no way of knowing- in reality, whether such discrimination exists or not- yet outright dismiss evidence and studies which indicates there to be such a reality. I doubt theyve reviewed the relevant material, conducted their own research, or developed a rational argument capable of challenging those that conclude otherwise- just refute it all as bollocks, but based on what? Naming black people who've had jobs doesnt add to the argument, the 25%-4% ratio is the question that requires explanation.
I also suspect they arent of an ethnic minority who have had to experience it- and informing those that may have, that regardless of the evidence or their experience, they have no entitlement to perceive prejudice exists, and must accept they just arent as good, may be seen as offensive to many.
I consider it a 'false personal opinion', because it doesnt concur with established facts, has no corroboratory external source, and doesnt come from from a position of knowledge. I dont consider it arrogant to state relevant facts to challenge such a consensus, certainly no more so than to declare the apparent statistical proof as 'bollocks' just because it conflicts with a self conceived narrative.
None of my posts were intended to offend nor were they, or this one, wished to be considered as aimed personally- im not sure the personal abuse in return is necessary- they were points made to challenge the general consensus of those happy to instantly dismiss the issue by instructing the world of how 'leftie-guardian-loadofpcbollox' completely made up it all is, without really knowing in the slightest as to whether such a view is valid.
Given this isnt a debate of the relevant facts, and that challenging opinion gets personal abuse in return, its perhaps best to leave it here.
[Post edited 5 Nov 2015 6:37]
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| Black managers on 06:35 - Nov 5 with 2124 views | TalkingSutty |
| Black managers on 00:08 - Nov 5 by dancdale |
I shall try to explain my view again, without causing such apparent personal offence
Evidence shows a clear statistical anomaly with respect to race, sufficient to conclude that discrimination is highly likely to exist somewhere in the system. Thats not based on my opinion, its based on a substantive fact existent in real world data. It is data from which it can be reasonably deduced that actually 20% of jobs dont have the potentially best person due to issues of race.
Its an issue which many more studies have established occurs across society, and as the evidence indicates theres no reason to think football any different, it forms part of that wider issue. So I consider we are equally discussing the issue of ethnic discrimination in employment generally and dont think its something that should be lightly dismissed.
Its a problem, and part of that problem are those who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge it happens anymore. The large number of posts casually dismissing any possible notion of its existance, regardless of the evidence, simply because they choose to think otherwise isnt a rational position to hold, and has the damaging effect of adding to an accepted consensus that no problem exists.
I consider the notion that skin colour plays no role in the levels of opportunity, almost certainly ignorant of the evidence and naive to the reality, which is why I stated it as such. Previous posts, including those of others have explained as to why.
I suggested those dismissing the issue dont have a clue as to the reality, because it is highly likely they dont - they have no way of knowing- in reality, whether such discrimination exists or not- yet outright dismiss evidence and studies which indicates there to be such a reality. I doubt theyve reviewed the relevant material, conducted their own research, or developed a rational argument capable of challenging those that conclude otherwise- just refute it all as bollocks, but based on what? Naming black people who've had jobs doesnt add to the argument, the 25%-4% ratio is the question that requires explanation.
I also suspect they arent of an ethnic minority who have had to experience it- and informing those that may have, that regardless of the evidence or their experience, they have no entitlement to perceive prejudice exists, and must accept they just arent as good, may be seen as offensive to many.
I consider it a 'false personal opinion', because it doesnt concur with established facts, has no corroboratory external source, and doesnt come from from a position of knowledge. I dont consider it arrogant to state relevant facts to challenge such a consensus, certainly no more so than to declare the apparent statistical proof as 'bollocks' just because it conflicts with a self conceived narrative.
None of my posts were intended to offend nor were they, or this one, wished to be considered as aimed personally- im not sure the personal abuse in return is necessary- they were points made to challenge the general consensus of those happy to instantly dismiss the issue by instructing the world of how 'leftie-guardian-loadofpcbollox' completely made up it all is, without really knowing in the slightest as to whether such a view is valid.
Given this isnt a debate of the relevant facts, and that challenging opinion gets personal abuse in return, its perhaps best to leave it here.
[Post edited 5 Nov 2015 6:37]
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There will undoubtedly be a minority of people with racist views in and around football, that's the way of the world. Somebody suggested being racist isn't exclusive to us 'Whiteys' and if you are as intelligent as you obviously think you are then you will accept that ( but you won't).
There's a common theme with the overwhelming majority of black managers, they are all crap at their jobs, failures. No different than most of the 'Whiteys' but failures none the less. Barnes and Ince are Millionaires as a result of being given a chance in football and let's remembe statistics show only a tiny minority get to realise their dream. Both had good International careers. I didn't hear them using the racist card then.
I wouldn't let Ince look after the goldfish never mind a football club, he's a odious little man with a attitude that stinks, a terrible football pundit also. Barnes is also a failed manager who had his chance, as a football presenter he was possibly the worst I have ever seen and that's being truthful, he was diabolical.
So, don't try suggesting these two clowns haven't had any opportunities because they obviously have. They excelled as footballers but performed dismally when given other opportunities in the game, it's that simple. |  | | |
| Black managers on 07:27 - Nov 5 with 2103 views | dancdale |
| Black managers on 15:41 - Nov 4 by TTNYear |
This also opens up a can of worms and where does this stop , a certain percentage of homosexuals, disabled, women etc have to be inclusive in this selection process, no doubt our Dancy boy and Porlicks will fully be behind that. Not that the above should be excluded I might add. Like the majority on here, if your good enough... you get the job. Even if a Jamaican, wheelchair bound lesbian, who has a penchant for bestiality, rolls up (pun intended) at the doors at Spotland... at least the lift will get used.
Oh and R17 ALE, 'who do you think you are Dancdale?' I'll guess at 'we all do it (even ethnic minorities) and it isn't dirty'. He's got form on that front. [Post edited 4 Nov 2015 16:29]
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Im not good at putting usernames to people. Im assuming youre calling me a w@nker and referring to something else? care to elaborate? | | | |
| Black managers on 09:05 - Nov 5 with 2035 views | R17ALE |
| Black managers on 00:08 - Nov 5 by dancdale |
I shall try to explain my view again, without causing such apparent personal offence
Evidence shows a clear statistical anomaly with respect to race, sufficient to conclude that discrimination is highly likely to exist somewhere in the system. Thats not based on my opinion, its based on a substantive fact existent in real world data. It is data from which it can be reasonably deduced that actually 20% of jobs dont have the potentially best person due to issues of race.
Its an issue which many more studies have established occurs across society, and as the evidence indicates theres no reason to think football any different, it forms part of that wider issue. So I consider we are equally discussing the issue of ethnic discrimination in employment generally and dont think its something that should be lightly dismissed.
Its a problem, and part of that problem are those who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge it happens anymore. The large number of posts casually dismissing any possible notion of its existance, regardless of the evidence, simply because they choose to think otherwise isnt a rational position to hold, and has the damaging effect of adding to an accepted consensus that no problem exists.
I consider the notion that skin colour plays no role in the levels of opportunity, almost certainly ignorant of the evidence and naive to the reality, which is why I stated it as such. Previous posts, including those of others have explained as to why.
I suggested those dismissing the issue dont have a clue as to the reality, because it is highly likely they dont - they have no way of knowing- in reality, whether such discrimination exists or not- yet outright dismiss evidence and studies which indicates there to be such a reality. I doubt theyve reviewed the relevant material, conducted their own research, or developed a rational argument capable of challenging those that conclude otherwise- just refute it all as bollocks, but based on what? Naming black people who've had jobs doesnt add to the argument, the 25%-4% ratio is the question that requires explanation.
I also suspect they arent of an ethnic minority who have had to experience it- and informing those that may have, that regardless of the evidence or their experience, they have no entitlement to perceive prejudice exists, and must accept they just arent as good, may be seen as offensive to many.
I consider it a 'false personal opinion', because it doesnt concur with established facts, has no corroboratory external source, and doesnt come from from a position of knowledge. I dont consider it arrogant to state relevant facts to challenge such a consensus, certainly no more so than to declare the apparent statistical proof as 'bollocks' just because it conflicts with a self conceived narrative.
None of my posts were intended to offend nor were they, or this one, wished to be considered as aimed personally- im not sure the personal abuse in return is necessary- they were points made to challenge the general consensus of those happy to instantly dismiss the issue by instructing the world of how 'leftie-guardian-loadofpcbollox' completely made up it all is, without really knowing in the slightest as to whether such a view is valid.
Given this isnt a debate of the relevant facts, and that challenging opinion gets personal abuse in return, its perhaps best to leave it here.
[Post edited 5 Nov 2015 6:37]
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No. You're the one talking bollox. Again.
You haven't got a scrap of evidence.
All you have is a statistic which you've applied your warped logic to, in order to make some ludicrous argument that many football club Chairmen are racists.
It's absurd. Really it is.
You haven't done any research. You don't even know how many black people have applied for management jobs. You have never been involved in the interview process, nor have you been involved in a short-listing process. Ever. Anywhere. At any club.
You clearly don't understand the difference between the words "statistic" and "evidence".
Consider this: If and when the Dale job is next available, we might get 30 applicants. Dunphy appoints a white manager. You play the racist card. Turns out all the applicants were white. You look a right tvvat.
Now if 29 of the applicants were black and the one white man gets the job, then you might, just might be onto something.
But we both know scenario two will never happen.
But you carry on peddling your twisted view of the world. It's like having our very own Forum Corbyn to play with! |  |
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| Black managers on 09:18 - Nov 5 with 2026 views | dingdangblue |
| Black managers on 09:05 - Nov 5 by R17ALE |
No. You're the one talking bollox. Again.
You haven't got a scrap of evidence.
All you have is a statistic which you've applied your warped logic to, in order to make some ludicrous argument that many football club Chairmen are racists.
It's absurd. Really it is.
You haven't done any research. You don't even know how many black people have applied for management jobs. You have never been involved in the interview process, nor have you been involved in a short-listing process. Ever. Anywhere. At any club.
You clearly don't understand the difference between the words "statistic" and "evidence".
Consider this: If and when the Dale job is next available, we might get 30 applicants. Dunphy appoints a white manager. You play the racist card. Turns out all the applicants were white. You look a right tvvat.
Now if 29 of the applicants were black and the one white man gets the job, then you might, just might be onto something.
But we both know scenario two will never happen.
But you carry on peddling your twisted view of the world. It's like having our very own Forum Corbyn to play with! |
I really think Dale's coaching staff/backroom team need investigating. On the team photo there's 8 of them and not one is black.  | |
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| Black managers on 09:48 - Nov 5 with 2006 views | Bobbyjoe |
| Black managers on 09:05 - Nov 5 by R17ALE |
No. You're the one talking bollox. Again.
You haven't got a scrap of evidence.
All you have is a statistic which you've applied your warped logic to, in order to make some ludicrous argument that many football club Chairmen are racists.
It's absurd. Really it is.
You haven't done any research. You don't even know how many black people have applied for management jobs. You have never been involved in the interview process, nor have you been involved in a short-listing process. Ever. Anywhere. At any club.
You clearly don't understand the difference between the words "statistic" and "evidence".
Consider this: If and when the Dale job is next available, we might get 30 applicants. Dunphy appoints a white manager. You play the racist card. Turns out all the applicants were white. You look a right tvvat.
Now if 29 of the applicants were black and the one white man gets the job, then you might, just might be onto something.
But we both know scenario two will never happen.
But you carry on peddling your twisted view of the world. It's like having our very own Forum Corbyn to play with! |
I think you're misrepresenting what he's saying, R17. I happen to agree 100% with his argument, but I agree he's certainly not winning any friends (or the argument) by his pompous and arrogant manner (and I do pompous and arrogant pretty well myself!). It's not that chairmen are racists, nor you, I or anyone else necessarily. It's that, subconsciously, we tend to stick with what we know. Most of us (and I'm making a blanket assumption that most of us are white males) would probably, more often than not, appoint a white male to a given job; that's just human nature (and, yes, I'm obviously massively generalising). The point of the Rooney rule, as I, possibly wrongly, understand it, is simply to gently nudge us in the direction of considering a wider talent-pool, which, ultimately, would benefit us all | | | |
| Black managers on 10:02 - Nov 5 with 1987 views | R17ALE |
| Black managers on 09:48 - Nov 5 by Bobbyjoe |
I think you're misrepresenting what he's saying, R17. I happen to agree 100% with his argument, but I agree he's certainly not winning any friends (or the argument) by his pompous and arrogant manner (and I do pompous and arrogant pretty well myself!). It's not that chairmen are racists, nor you, I or anyone else necessarily. It's that, subconsciously, we tend to stick with what we know. Most of us (and I'm making a blanket assumption that most of us are white males) would probably, more often than not, appoint a white male to a given job; that's just human nature (and, yes, I'm obviously massively generalising). The point of the Rooney rule, as I, possibly wrongly, understand it, is simply to gently nudge us in the direction of considering a wider talent-pool, which, ultimately, would benefit us all |
Yes, you're right.
But, and it's a big but, you can only appoint from the applicants in front of you.
I agree the statistic Dan quoted does raise eyebrows and you do wonder if there are reasons for the statistic.
Now the vast majority of us wouldn't rule out racism playing a small part in this.
Dan, on the other hand, has ruled racism in, straightaway, claiming he has done some research and has clear evidence.
This is despite him never once interviewing one Chairman, nor being involved in any manager selection process.
And anyone who disagrees with him is lacking education and has a worthless opinion!
Like I said, he's our Forum Corbyn! | |
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| Black managers on 10:21 - Nov 5 with 1967 views | TVOS1907 |
| Black managers on 10:02 - Nov 5 by R17ALE |
Yes, you're right.
But, and it's a big but, you can only appoint from the applicants in front of you.
I agree the statistic Dan quoted does raise eyebrows and you do wonder if there are reasons for the statistic.
Now the vast majority of us wouldn't rule out racism playing a small part in this.
Dan, on the other hand, has ruled racism in, straightaway, claiming he has done some research and has clear evidence.
This is despite him never once interviewing one Chairman, nor being involved in any manager selection process.
And anyone who disagrees with him is lacking education and has a worthless opinion!
Like I said, he's our Forum Corbyn! |
Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, wasn't Dan, with his statistics, referring to employment in general and not just football clubs. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Black managers on 10:28 - Nov 5 with 1961 views | dingdangblue |
| Black managers on 10:21 - Nov 5 by TVOS1907 |
Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, wasn't Dan, with his statistics, referring to employment in general and not just football clubs. |
No 25% black players, 4% black managers is/was correct.
This statement is just pathetic:
"People will look and think 'Is it worth it? Is it because of the colour of their skin"? Erm......no we wont.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34730265 [Post edited 5 Nov 2015 10:32]
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| Black managers on 10:47 - Nov 5 with 1929 views | DorsetDale |
Been hoping this thread would disappear so as not to get involved but here we are several pages further and top of the page.
There are many well reasoned posts from all aspects even if, in my opinion, misguided.
You need argue with each other no more but unite as one and roundly turn on me!
For the moment, let's forget the involvement of "studies" and "statistics" (we all know about statistics!), forget authoritative reports, forget any form of authority and simply look at the argument from personal responsibility.
If I wish to employ an all white/black/yellow/fookin polka dot crew, no one has the right to tell me any different and certainly has no right to write something down on paper, call it "legislation" and then forcibly impose it on me! I say forcibly because all legislation comes with the threat of violence if not complied with.
If, as above, I made the CHOICE to employ whomever I wish paying them with MY money, and for the sake of this discussion I have a naturally high turnover of staff, the work being seasonal, word would soon get around and I would either continue in the same manner un-hindered or end up in the position that potential employees may boycott me. I'm going to miss out on the best workers and my business is rapidly on the slide. Either I change my policy or go under.
That scenario is the natural way of things. We don't need busy bodies, think tanks, reports etc.. all incidentally probably costing small fortunes to come up with the same conclusions a 5 year old could muster during play time.
Such studies as the one that initiated this thread are encouraged and designed with the purpose of inciting debate amongst the likes of reasonable people as shown here, but also to get the backs up of real, actual racists, who whether deluded or otherwise, still have a right to an opinion but not to ever use violence to impose that opinion. | |
| YOU do not have the right to give someone else permission to tell me what I can and can't do. |
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| Black managers on 11:16 - Nov 5 with 1892 views | JimmyRustler |
I realise I'm coming to this a little late but fook me, some people need to come to the realisation that correlation and causation are entirely different things.
Someone should honestly look into setting up an organisation not too dissimilar to UFC called Ultimate Social Justice Warrior and have them beat the shite out of other/talk each other to death |  | | |
| Black managers on 12:46 - Nov 5 with 1822 views | TVOS1907 |
Precisely.
Will there be a similar story on a day when two white coaches are sacked?
At least Frank Sinclair isn't jumping on the bandwagon. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Black managers on 13:06 - Nov 5 with 1798 views | zxcvbnm |
| Black managers on 12:46 - Nov 5 by TVOS1907 |
Precisely.
Will there be a similar story on a day when two white coaches are sacked?
At least Frank Sinclair isn't jumping on the bandwagon. |
They don't mention Richard money sacked by Cambridge on Monday. Funny that! | |
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| Black managers on 13:34 - Nov 5 with 1758 views | DorsetDale |
| Black managers on 12:46 - Nov 5 by TVOS1907 |
Precisely.
Will there be a similar story on a day when two white coaches are sacked?
At least Frank Sinclair isn't jumping on the bandwagon. |
Nor Les Ferdinand who said the sacking of Ramsey was "in the best interests of the club" | |
| YOU do not have the right to give someone else permission to tell me what I can and can't do. |
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| Black managers on 13:51 - Nov 5 with 1732 views | dingdangblue |
| Black managers on 12:46 - Nov 5 by TVOS1907 |
Precisely.
Will there be a similar story on a day when two white coaches are sacked?
At least Frank Sinclair isn't jumping on the bandwagon. |
Surely the guy singling them out as black managers is being racist? To me they are just both Football Managers. | |
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| Black managers on 01:22 - Nov 6 with 1572 views | mikehunt |
I think the simple answer to this is if someone could offer a definitive list of 25 or so black people who are actively seeking a managerial position in the football league (that's your 25% approx) at present. And how many times they have been rejected.
You know you can drag this out to the nth degree: eg why aren't 25 % of referees black? Why aren't 25% of football crowds ethnic? And so on. These things have got to work both ways, surely? |  |
| The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance. |
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