| Smoke Free Swansea 12:10 - Oct 10 with 12712 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
Ladies and Gents.
There is a survey from Swansea council that I would urge you all to complete - on whether to make Swansea a smoke free city.
Consider this - smokers have known for decades the dangers of smoking, yet have made a conscious decision to take up the habit at the cost of everyone around them - forced to share their death fumes. Non-smokers can't even eat outside on sunny days with their families, or walk outside through a doorway without getting a facefull of fumes from selfish and anti-social smokers who hang around in gangs without a consideration for people having to walk between them to exit the building.
Smoking is a habit that rightfully deserves to be stamped out. If creating a nanny-state policy against smoking is needed to protect the health of others, who have taken the decision not to indulge in cancer development and lung destruction, then so be it.
So, you'll find the link for the survey below.
http://www.swansea.gov.uk/smokefreesurvey |  |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 14:21 - Oct 10 with 2688 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 14:10 - Oct 10 by MillJack |
So, just to be absolutely clear, which way will you be voting EvenThisNameIsTaken? [Post edited 10 Oct 2015 14:15]
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Did I stutter?
Clearly I will be all for a complete ban on smoking in public and where kids are present. If people want to smoke, then they may do so - they can slowly kill themselves in private in their own homes AND away from kids. It's called responsibility. | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 14:52 - Oct 10 with 2653 views | MillJack |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 14:21 - Oct 10 by EvenThisNameIsTaken |
Did I stutter?
Clearly I will be all for a complete ban on smoking in public and where kids are present. If people want to smoke, then they may do so - they can slowly kill themselves in private in their own homes AND away from kids. It's called responsibility. |
It seems my sarcasm was slightly lost in translation. No, you didn't stutter and have been very clear in your views.
For what it's worth I'm an ex-smoker and was fully behind the banning of smoking in pubs, restaurants, etc. However, the idea of banning smoking outdoors in any city is taking things a little bit too far imo.
Your thoughts about not wanting people to inhale 2nd hand smoke in beer gardens, building entrances, etc. are valid ones but, unfortunately, when you start labelling every smoker as disgusting, weak, selfish and many other things you lose any credibility you may have in your argument. By all means attack the effects of smoking but your argument would stand up better if you stopped there. |  | | |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 15:03 - Oct 10 with 2639 views | Highjack |
There's a lot of hyperbole in this thread. Death fumes? Hang around in gangs? Ladies and gents?
For the record I agree that it can be unpleasant for people to inhale other people's smoke but let's stay sensible. You are not going to get instant cancer from a short burst of second hand smoke. We inhale all sorts of toxins every day from German cars. You have to be exposed to it for a considerable amount of time like Roy castle and his trumpet in nightclubs before it will make you Ill.
I have never been a smoker but I say let them get on with it. They should respect the wishes of others and do it in a responsible manner of course. |  |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 15:17 - Oct 10 with 2631 views | lifelong |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 12:12 - Oct 10 by Darran |
You won't be able to take a shit in your own house before long. |
You could always go to someone else's house? |  | | |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 15:26 - Oct 10 with 2624 views | dgt73 |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 15:03 - Oct 10 by Highjack |
There's a lot of hyperbole in this thread. Death fumes? Hang around in gangs? Ladies and gents?
For the record I agree that it can be unpleasant for people to inhale other people's smoke but let's stay sensible. You are not going to get instant cancer from a short burst of second hand smoke. We inhale all sorts of toxins every day from German cars. You have to be exposed to it for a considerable amount of time like Roy castle and his trumpet in nightclubs before it will make you Ill.
I have never been a smoker but I say let them get on with it. They should respect the wishes of others and do it in a responsible manner of course. |
I didn't realise you are a toxicologist. [Post edited 10 Oct 2015 15:41]
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 15:58 - Oct 10 with 2604 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 15:03 - Oct 10 by Highjack |
There's a lot of hyperbole in this thread. Death fumes? Hang around in gangs? Ladies and gents?
For the record I agree that it can be unpleasant for people to inhale other people's smoke but let's stay sensible. You are not going to get instant cancer from a short burst of second hand smoke. We inhale all sorts of toxins every day from German cars. You have to be exposed to it for a considerable amount of time like Roy castle and his trumpet in nightclubs before it will make you Ill.
I have never been a smoker but I say let them get on with it. They should respect the wishes of others and do it in a responsible manner of course. |
You're not seeing the whole picture. Do you know of any people who have caught lung cancer and smoking related diseases, yet have never smoked themselves?
Well I do.
You see, a small burst of smoke may not hurt you - but over a period of time it does have an affect on you. Whether you like it or not - it's an affect that is forced on to you!
So as a non-smoker - why should it be accepted? Why pander to the needs of people who's habit springs from ignoring medical advice and caution that has been well documented and known about for decades? IT CAUSES CANCER ! FACT! There is no set minimum period of time or amount of cigarettes that cause this disease - it doesn't matter how much you smoke - it diminishes your life expectancy with EVERY PUFF!
People who sit back and just accept this bullshit are effectively part of the problem - think about it. If you find used needles on a floor disgusting (yet don't have to touch them), but have no problem with being forced to breathe someone else's cancerous fumes then think about your priorities here. [Post edited 10 Oct 2015 16:04]
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:01 - Oct 10 with 2600 views | Neath_Jack |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 15:58 - Oct 10 by EvenThisNameIsTaken |
You're not seeing the whole picture. Do you know of any people who have caught lung cancer and smoking related diseases, yet have never smoked themselves?
Well I do.
You see, a small burst of smoke may not hurt you - but over a period of time it does have an affect on you. Whether you like it or not - it's an affect that is forced on to you!
So as a non-smoker - why should it be accepted? Why pander to the needs of people who's habit springs from ignoring medical advice and caution that has been well documented and known about for decades? IT CAUSES CANCER ! FACT! There is no set minimum period of time or amount of cigarettes that cause this disease - it doesn't matter how much you smoke - it diminishes your life expectancy with EVERY PUFF!
People who sit back and just accept this bullshit are effectively part of the problem - think about it. If you find used needles on a floor disgusting (yet don't have to touch them), but have no problem with being forced to breathe someone else's cancerous fumes then think about your priorities here. [Post edited 10 Oct 2015 16:04]
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Why should alcohol be tolerated and all the death, misery and pain that is attributed to it, either directly or indirectly? What about the massive strain that those illnesses and incidents put on all the emergency services? |  |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:03 - Oct 10 with 2598 views | dgt73 |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:01 - Oct 10 by Neath_Jack |
Why should alcohol be tolerated and all the death, misery and pain that is attributed to it, either directly or indirectly? What about the massive strain that those illnesses and incidents put on all the emergency services? |
Who said alcohol abuse should be tolerated ?. | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:08 - Oct 10 with 2585 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:01 - Oct 10 by Neath_Jack |
Why should alcohol be tolerated and all the death, misery and pain that is attributed to it, either directly or indirectly? What about the massive strain that those illnesses and incidents put on all the emergency services? |
Don't get me wrong - alcohol also causes numerous problems.
However, the main difference to smoking though is that you won't catch cancer through other peoples booze fumes.
You should also be aware drinking outdoors is restricted much more heavily than smoking (police intervention for instance when confiscating drink and issuing on the spot fines dependent on regional by-laws etc).
Many people here don't seem to appreciate the facts regarding second hand smoke, as well as third hand smoke (residual smoke) - which remains residual for a long, long time afterwards and not only effects the immediate environment, but also the wider environment. FACT. [Post edited 10 Oct 2015 16:12]
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:10 - Oct 10 with 2581 views | Flashberryjack |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:03 - Oct 10 by dgt73 |
Who said alcohol abuse should be tolerated ?. |
Do you think alcohol should be banned from public places ? |  |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:11 - Oct 10 with 2579 views | Neath_Jack |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:08 - Oct 10 by EvenThisNameIsTaken |
Don't get me wrong - alcohol also causes numerous problems.
However, the main difference to smoking though is that you won't catch cancer through other peoples booze fumes.
You should also be aware drinking outdoors is restricted much more heavily than smoking (police intervention for instance when confiscating drink and issuing on the spot fines dependent on regional by-laws etc).
Many people here don't seem to appreciate the facts regarding second hand smoke, as well as third hand smoke (residual smoke) - which remains residual for a long, long time afterwards and not only effects the immediate environment, but also the wider environment. FACT. [Post edited 10 Oct 2015 16:12]
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But it still puts massive strain and costs on all kinds of services. Certainly creates more misery and hurt than smoking does. If you're going to ban one, then ban the other, more costly and dangerous one, no? | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:12 - Oct 10 with 2573 views | dgt73 |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:10 - Oct 10 by Flashberryjack |
Do you think alcohol should be banned from public places ? |
Can you develop terminal diseases - from someone having a quiet pint/glass of wine....? | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:20 - Oct 10 with 2559 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:11 - Oct 10 by Neath_Jack |
But it still puts massive strain and costs on all kinds of services. Certainly creates more misery and hurt than smoking does. If you're going to ban one, then ban the other, more costly and dangerous one, no? |
I think you may be trolling a little here instead of taking this seriously.
NOBODY is saying alcohol doesn't also have a major impact on our NHS and society as a whole. It creates problems for the individual, their family and also the public. But does it create MORE misery?
The answer is no. You may want to check your facts here. In the UK, there are 11 smoking-related deaths every HOUR compared to one an hour for alcohol
So back on topic - the issue we have here relates to the PRIMARY HEALTH ISSUE.... Smoking. [Post edited 10 Oct 2015 16:21]
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:27 - Oct 10 with 2542 views | jack247 |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:08 - Oct 10 by EvenThisNameIsTaken |
Don't get me wrong - alcohol also causes numerous problems.
However, the main difference to smoking though is that you won't catch cancer through other peoples booze fumes.
You should also be aware drinking outdoors is restricted much more heavily than smoking (police intervention for instance when confiscating drink and issuing on the spot fines dependent on regional by-laws etc).
Many people here don't seem to appreciate the facts regarding second hand smoke, as well as third hand smoke (residual smoke) - which remains residual for a long, long time afterwards and not only effects the immediate environment, but also the wider environment. FACT. [Post edited 10 Oct 2015 16:12]
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You also won't get beaten up by someone who has had too many fags on a night out, or run over by a smoke-driver. To imply that there are no deaths or life altering injuries through other people drinking is just wrong.
I don't think either should be banned. Just my opinion and I respect your view and your passion for it. A bit too nanny state for me though. | | | |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:28 - Oct 10 with 2426 views | Rancid |
It is possible to smoke without other people being affected.I do it comfortably and the only person affected is myself which is my choice. |  | | |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:28 - Oct 10 with 2423 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 12:44 - Oct 10 by EvenThisNameIsTaken |
Careful. At anytime the argument that "smokers (in some way) subsidise the NHS through their tax" may crop up.
Sure, it's a fallacy. A ridiculous argument afterall, they have not only decided to continue smoking despite their views, but smokers actually cost MORE towards the public purse. Not only the NHS, but also the campaigns and support given to smokers' to give up the habit (they decided to take up, fully aware of the risks and dangers).
Also, let's not forget business lost productivity as a result of 'fag breaks' and health issues as a result (Lost national productivity as a result of premature smoking related deaths is estimated to be approximately £3bn per annum).
And who pays for the care given to the terminally ill smokers?
Let's not forget the cost of cleaning our streets, littered with fag ends from the lazy horrible scummers who can't be bothered walking to find a cigarette bin (paid for by the tax payer), or those who wish to keep their car fag free by instead throwing their stubs out through car windows! |
Actually this isn't true though.
I don't smoke (I used to as full disclosure) but all economic models produced show that smoking generates c. £12bn per annum in taxes and VAT and the costs to the NHS of smoking related illnesses costs about £2.5bn per annum, and up to c. £6bn if you take every possible disease that could have tobacco factors attributed to it. And that is without taking into consideration the facts that a smoker dying younger saves money in pensions, care etc later in life.
Yes, there are issues of costs relating to business productivity etc, but no more than the lost productivity that you get from people being off sick far more times if, for example, they are obese, or time off work due to alcohol consumption etc etc.
And let's ban chewing gum if you really want the streets to be cleaner - the mess that causes is far more costly than fag ends.
I had a look at the survey you linked to - it sums it all up when they asked a question about electronic cigarettes. Absolutely NO effect on anyone else, and yet they want to know if they should ban those as well. Why would they do that?
Ban every fast food outlet in Swansea - that would have more of a positive impact on health, as walking around Swansea it's incredible how many people are clinically obese. The smoking thing is just easy, gesture politics. | | | |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:30 - Oct 10 with 2420 views | Whiterockin |
If an area is designated smoke free it is pointless unless it is enforced. An example of this is the entrance to Morriston Hospital. When ever you need to visit you always have to walk through a crowd of smokers. Isn't smoking banned in the hospital and the grounds? |  | | |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:33 - Oct 10 with 2411 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:28 - Oct 10 by Rancid |
It is possible to smoke without other people being affected.I do it comfortably and the only person affected is myself which is my choice. |
Do you get visitors to your home at all? Smoke doesn't immediately disappear as soon as you finish the fag. Check our residual smoke (otherwise known as third hand smoke).
Smoking is never limited to one person.
As I've advised others already, I would urge people to research this subject before deciding they "are not doing any harm". | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:35 - Oct 10 with 2401 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:30 - Oct 10 by Whiterockin |
If an area is designated smoke free it is pointless unless it is enforced. An example of this is the entrance to Morriston Hospital. When ever you need to visit you always have to walk through a crowd of smokers. Isn't smoking banned in the hospital and the grounds? |
Which is part of my point - smokers are, on a whole, very selfish people. Their needs before those of others - as evidenced many times already in this thread. | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:36 - Oct 10 with 2396 views | Rancid |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:33 - Oct 10 by EvenThisNameIsTaken |
Do you get visitors to your home at all? Smoke doesn't immediately disappear as soon as you finish the fag. Check our residual smoke (otherwise known as third hand smoke).
Smoking is never limited to one person.
As I've advised others already, I would urge people to research this subject before deciding they "are not doing any harm". |
So not only did we discover that second hand smoke kills but now third hand smoke? I don't smoke in the house I go outside which is why I said nobody is affected bar myself.Please don't tell me my Mrs or kids will die from holding my hand. | | | |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:39 - Oct 10 with 2385 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:28 - Oct 10 by londonlisa2001 |
Actually this isn't true though.
I don't smoke (I used to as full disclosure) but all economic models produced show that smoking generates c. £12bn per annum in taxes and VAT and the costs to the NHS of smoking related illnesses costs about £2.5bn per annum, and up to c. £6bn if you take every possible disease that could have tobacco factors attributed to it. And that is without taking into consideration the facts that a smoker dying younger saves money in pensions, care etc later in life.
Yes, there are issues of costs relating to business productivity etc, but no more than the lost productivity that you get from people being off sick far more times if, for example, they are obese, or time off work due to alcohol consumption etc etc.
And let's ban chewing gum if you really want the streets to be cleaner - the mess that causes is far more costly than fag ends.
I had a look at the survey you linked to - it sums it all up when they asked a question about electronic cigarettes. Absolutely NO effect on anyone else, and yet they want to know if they should ban those as well. Why would they do that?
Ban every fast food outlet in Swansea - that would have more of a positive impact on health, as walking around Swansea it's incredible how many people are clinically obese. The smoking thing is just easy, gesture politics. |
Not true?
With respect - could you provide your sources on this please?
I'll happily provide some of mine!
http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-cancer/smoking-and-cancer
http://ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_107.pdf
http://bma.org.uk/working-for-change/improving-and-protecting-health/tobacco/smo
http://www.ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_121.pdf
https://www.bupa.co.uk/health-information/directory/e/effects-smoking
Of course, without facts to back up your claim I wouldn't want to claim you talk out of your ass. This will be obvious to everyone. Of course, you may just be speaking from experience - which doesn't unfortunately constitute fact.
The TRUE cost to the NHS as a result of smoking related issues is over £6 BILLION per year! This does not account for the assistance and help offered to smokers to help them quit, the cost to emergency services such as the fire service for the times they are called to houses on fire as a result of smokers. A more accurate cost with everything considered is upwards of £27 BILLION per year! The government make only £9.5 BILLION per year from duty on cigarettes!
https://fullfact.org/factchecks/does_smoking_cost_as_much_as_it_makes_for_the_tr
And in terms of cost to the UK, you should also take into account the non-monetary cost of smoking - the lives taken as a result of this. Smokers and Non-smokers! [Post edited 10 Oct 2015 16:46]
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:47 - Oct 10 with 2361 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:36 - Oct 10 by Rancid |
So not only did we discover that second hand smoke kills but now third hand smoke? I don't smoke in the house I go outside which is why I said nobody is affected bar myself.Please don't tell me my Mrs or kids will die from holding my hand. |
BUT THEY WILL.
Ignorance will not make others immune to your selfishness!
This was known about as far back as 2006 yet you continue to bury your head so you can continue your habit!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/children/4126202/Parents-who-smoke-only-i
[Post edited 10 Oct 2015 16:49]
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:48 - Oct 10 with 2359 views | londonlisa2001 |
Your first link says it's harmful - where did I dispute that? Of course it is - extremely harmful. That's why I gave it up.
So does your second link.
And your third.
There have been several independent costings done of this area under freedom of information requests.
Check out this as an example:
https://fullfact.org/factchecks/does_smoking_cost_as_much_as_it_makes_for_the_tr
You obviously have a 'thing' about smoking. That's fine. It is not good for you and second hand smoke in confined areas is harmful. But my comment was about the economics. And, on that, every independent analysis done recently (not only in the UK - check out Australia as well) shows you to be wrong.
Sorry, but that's just the way it is. | | | |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:51 - Oct 10 with 2354 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:48 - Oct 10 by londonlisa2001 |
Your first link says it's harmful - where did I dispute that? Of course it is - extremely harmful. That's why I gave it up.
So does your second link.
And your third.
There have been several independent costings done of this area under freedom of information requests.
Check out this as an example:
https://fullfact.org/factchecks/does_smoking_cost_as_much_as_it_makes_for_the_tr
You obviously have a 'thing' about smoking. That's fine. It is not good for you and second hand smoke in confined areas is harmful. But my comment was about the economics. And, on that, every independent analysis done recently (not only in the UK - check out Australia as well) shows you to be wrong.
Sorry, but that's just the way it is. |
ha - you then edited your reply to show the same article.
You missed the bit where they summarised that smoking taxes more than make up for the cost to the NHS then did you? And you missed the bit about VAT? | | | |
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