| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? 10:30 - Feb 23 with 7765 views | taffpop |
Hi, I'm one of those who always reads but never posts but I'm breaking my golden rule today...
I read the record of Phil Sumbler's outstanding efforts at the meeting the other day and wondered, is it time to start an official appeal to enable the purchase of the shares needed to get to the "magic" 25% holding?
I'm a ST holder of 13 years standing but didn't realise the state of play until reading this. Our trust is admired worldwide, I wonder if a full on high profile campaign to raise the £4 million would gain momentum with some nifty PR and social media campaign?
Ashamed to say I actually thought I was a full member as a ST holder. I'm paying up and joining today. Just a thought....
Over and out😉 |  | | |  |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 11:43 - Feb 23 with 5624 views | JackSwanTV |
Yes! :) | |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 11:44 - Feb 23 with 5620 views | Pegojack |
Good point, but from what I'm reading in the Trust statement, there's very little chance of any of the current shareholders selling any shares to the Trust, for fear of making their remaining shares less attractive, and therefore less valuable, to any outside purchasers (please note I did NOT say outside 'investors').
If this is true, to their undying shame, I might add. |  | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 12:01 - Feb 23 with 5583 views | airedale |
Understandable though, no-one wants to give their money away, unless there's reasonable cause. |  | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 12:05 - Feb 23 with 5555 views | Darran |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 11:43 - Feb 23 by JackSwanTV |
Yes! :) |
Nobody will sell mun. |  |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 12:35 - Feb 23 with 5480 views | Clinton |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 12:05 - Feb 23 by Darran |
Nobody will sell mun. |
A great pity, but no wonder. As long as we survive next season, the TV revenues will be eye-watering in the 2016-2017 season and beyond. This time next year, every asset-stripper, shyster and glad-hander will be at the Swans door wanting a piece of the action. It will be an unedifying sight.
Maybe the Trust should take a different approach. Sell the Trust Holding, put the 20 million in the bank and wait for the "investors" to take us to the next level. If that level turns out to be League 1 and the investors depart, the Trust can buy back the whole club for a penny. |  |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 13:22 - Feb 23 with 5340 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 12:35 - Feb 23 by Clinton |
A great pity, but no wonder. As long as we survive next season, the TV revenues will be eye-watering in the 2016-2017 season and beyond. This time next year, every asset-stripper, shyster and glad-hander will be at the Swans door wanting a piece of the action. It will be an unedifying sight.
Maybe the Trust should take a different approach. Sell the Trust Holding, put the 20 million in the bank and wait for the "investors" to take us to the next level. If that level turns out to be League 1 and the investors depart, the Trust can buy back the whole club for a penny. |
The counter to your argument - which is on a financial basis only - is that if the TV rights do keep exponentially growing and we maintain PL status - which we have a high probability of doing given we are now an established PL club (3pts away from a 5th PL season) - have a quality squad that will be strengthened in the summer. Then the Trust's stake could be worth £40m to £60m.
The reasons for this is that under FFP it is now very difficult for a Championship club to match us - as now rich owners such as Vincent Tan can't splash the cash on players.
It is also very difficult for Championship clubs to build up a squad - deep in PL quality players. It has taken us 4 seasons to do so - receiving c.£200m of TV rights money. Remember to build up a squad you not only have to pay for the players themselves - but also for their salaries. So say you have £80m of TV rights money and spend £50m on salaries - then only have £30m to spend on players if you are lucky less agents fees. They probably also have certain debts that they have incurred to get to PL (subject to FFP) - so that will also eat into the £30m less agents transfer feed). Meanwhile all the existing PL clubs have the same amount available to improve their squad.
If you come up with only say 6 PL players including spending £30m less agents fees on PL players - then in a very weak position if any of them get injured or pick up suspensions.
You also may have £30m less agents fees to spend on players - but of course you may get it wrong on the players you buy - think Cardiff's buy of Cornelius.
We therefore have considerable competitive advantage at the moment - so if TV rights keep growing our £20m has a very high probability of growing to £40m or £60m. You can never say never and we could get relegated - but that is low probability under how current FFP rules stand and the fact that TV rights are mostly shared out equally across PL club.
If this changed and the TV rights were more in favour of larger clubs (Real Madrid and Barcelona negotiate their own TV rights for example) then for the lesser clubs (such as ourselves) - competitive advantage likely those then to be based on those with largest revenue achieved from stadium attendances - so then I might start erring to your view - if only basing decision on a financial one. Rather than one on being able to protect the club's assets if a carpet bagged was handed the keys. | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 13:37 - Feb 23 with 5276 views | monmouth |
We should all do the euromillions. Win 150m, buy out 29.8% of the 'tired' boys shares for 40m, vote with the trust until you die and leave the shares to the trust in your will. Job done. |  |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 14:03 - Feb 23 with 5219 views | Nookiejack |
I think the club is also in a very strong position in the moment due to
1. currently clubs with large fan bases - Leeds, Sheff Utd, Sheff Wednesday, Portsmouth being in financially very weak positions. (A counter to this argument is that Derby and Norwich who have large attendances look stronger - but again the revenue from stadium attendances is dwarfed by TV rights money and we have had c.£200m of this over last 4 seasons to build current quality squad.)
2. PL clubs such as Aston Villa, QPR, Sunderland etc. - look to be carrying substantial amount of cumulative debt.
Therefore the £30m less agents fees - that I have estimated above that is available to be spent on players - is likely to be a lot less for those clubs. If they have to service that debt and eventually repay it. Again that gives us competitive advantage - given we do not have any debt. | | | |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 14:26 - Feb 23 with 5160 views | AndyNak |
Maybe the Trust should wait until their shares reach £60M, cash in, then buy Cardiff as a feeder club? Could use their pitch for training, reserve games etc | |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 15:09 - Feb 23 with 5090 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 14:26 - Feb 23 by AndyNak |
Maybe the Trust should wait until their shares reach £60M, cash in, then buy Cardiff as a feeder club? Could use their pitch for training, reserve games etc |
With the size of their current c. £100m debt - Cardiff is probably only worth £50k now - if that? | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 15:12 - Feb 23 with 5082 views | felixstowe_jack |
Sounds like a good idea. | |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 15:43 - Feb 23 with 5027 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 14:26 - Feb 23 by AndyNak |
Maybe the Trust should wait until their shares reach £60M, cash in, then buy Cardiff as a feeder club? Could use their pitch for training, reserve games etc |
For the avoidance of doubt
I think the key issue is the protection of the club's assets. Not the financial value of Trust's stake.
However if you come from the viewpoint that the key issue is the financial value of the Trust's stake - so should sell it now to lock that value in. Be aware that we currently have very strong competitive advantage - so financial value of £20m is likely to grow much more likely than fall - if TV rights and worldwide interest in PL keeps growing. | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 18:56 - Feb 23 with 4887 views | taffpop |
Some food for thought there folks .. I was naively assuming that the existing shareholders would be benevolent and not consider any devaluation of their shares as a personal loss, given the vast returns they'll get.
You're right though, who can blame them - not me.
What would be the ideal "safety" scenario for us, the trust and the club in your opinion then? | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 19:07 - Feb 23 with 4870 views | Thornburyswan |
I'm with you, joined today too :-) | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 20:30 - Feb 23 with 4787 views | Nookiejack |
I just think there is a massive debate about income inequality going on in this country and throughout the world.
It just doesn't feel right to me (after all the 'Jack to a King' / 'Run by the Fans, For the Fans' spiel) that we are asking for essentially a transfer of £4m of wealth - from what I would assume to be relatively low income people on average - to individuals who are going to be multi-millionaires.
If the non-Trust shareholders create a legacy for themselves and gifted 5% to the Trust - their remaining 75% stakes would range from £50m to £75m - dependent on the loss of value you estimate for giving the Trust protection rights.
£50m minimum is an incredible sum of money and the question you have got to ask yourself is how much money really is enough money?
The £4m that supporters could dip their hands in their pockets for - is much better in my view and other posters - going to 'the Freya Bevan' fund and other good causes - rather than the pockets of soon to be multi/millionaires.
Do the right thing guys!!! | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 20:36 - Feb 23 with 4770 views | airedale |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 18:56 - Feb 23 by taffpop |
Some food for thought there folks .. I was naively assuming that the existing shareholders would be benevolent and not consider any devaluation of their shares as a personal loss, given the vast returns they'll get.
You're right though, who can blame them - not me.
What would be the ideal "safety" scenario for us, the trust and the club in your opinion then? |
I'd like the Trust to effect the purchase of the stadium. | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 20:36 - Feb 23 with 4769 views | Darran |
The Trust only need 3.8%.
Just saying. | |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 20:52 - Feb 23 with 4728 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 20:36 - Feb 23 by airedale |
I'd like the Trust to effect the purchase of the stadium. |
Is that you priority stadium acquisition over the protection of the club's assets the 25% gives you?
Can you expand? | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 21:05 - Feb 23 with 4706 views | Davillin |
I cannot stress this enough, but we must concentrate on shares not money in the bank from selling shares. Or any other expenditure of Trust cash!
1. As attractive as the O.P.'s suggestion might sound, what if on that sad day, no-one will sell to the Trust? Hey Zeus, the present shareholders won't sell the Trust even 4% because they don't want the Trust to get too much power.
2. Also, if you don't see that the absence of a strong Trust right now would have resulted in the sale of the club to two Americans -- right now -- then I don't know how to explain to you what might happen next time if the Trust has no shareholding when it does.
Absolutely no sale of Trust shares. Full Stop! [Post edited 23 Feb 2015 21:06]
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 21:13 - Feb 23 with 4669 views | Glyn1 |
Seriously, why should the Directors give £5 million in Shares to a Trust that has only 1,000 paying members? If the other 10,000 can't be bothered to pay £10 each then what lack of commitment does that reveal?
Yes, I understand that lots of us didn't understand about paying and non-paying members but we do now. It will be interesting to see what the membership is by the end of the season. |  |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 21:15 - Feb 23 with 4655 views | Darran |
Where's the list of 'all' shareholders? Anyone? | |
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| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 21:57 - Feb 23 with 4585 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 21:13 - Feb 23 by Glyn1 |
Seriously, why should the Directors give £5 million in Shares to a Trust that has only 1,000 paying members? If the other 10,000 can't be bothered to pay £10 each then what lack of commitment does that reveal?
Yes, I understand that lots of us didn't understand about paying and non-paying members but we do now. It will be interesting to see what the membership is by the end of the season. |
Glyn1 - I agree with your underlying sentiment - that you are encouraging supporters to join the Trust - to demonstrate to respective shareholders who have the power to gift the 4% - the strenghth of feeling behind this.
1,000 is pretty powerful - but imagine 10,000!!! | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 21:59 - Feb 23 with 4570 views | Tom1912 |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 21:15 - Feb 23 by Darran |
Where's the list of 'all' shareholders? Anyone? |
http://www.swanseacity.net/club/club_ownership/
Only states 10%+ though:
Shareholders owning 10% or more of the issued share capital in the ultimate holding company are:
Mr & Mrs Martin Morgan - 23.7%
Brian Katzen - 21.1%
Swansea City Supporters Society Ltd - 21.1%
Huw Jenkins - 13.2%
Robert Davies - 10.5% | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 22:09 - Feb 23 with 4553 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 21:59 - Feb 23 by Tom1912 |
http://www.swanseacity.net/club/club_ownership/
Only states 10%+ though:
Shareholders owning 10% or more of the issued share capital in the ultimate holding company are:
Mr & Mrs Martin Morgan - 23.7%
Brian Katzen - 21.1%
Swansea City Supporters Society Ltd - 21.1%
Huw Jenkins - 13.2%
Robert Davies - 10.5% |
What %s do Leigh Dineen and John Van Zeeden own? | | | |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 22:12 - Feb 23 with 4542 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust - £4 million needed? on 22:09 - Feb 23 by Nookiejack |
What %s do Leigh Dineen and John Van Zeeden own? |
Sorry typo ......John Van Zweden | | | |
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