Forum | Will Keane and other young English players by welwynhoop

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Will Keane and other young English players 13:28 - Jul 3 with 2635 views

Having just read Clive's comments about Will Keane and Clive's dismissal of the idea that B teams for the big clubs play in the lower leagues I have been wondering if an England B team might be a better idea? Young English players could somehow have it written in their contracts that if they are not playing regular first team football in the Premier League then they must be given the opportunity to play for England B in the Championship. England B would train at where ever it is that England train but would have to play all their matches away from home. They would not be allowed to be promoted or relegated but could win the FA or League Cup. This would give these players competitive games and develop a style of play that could be used for England teams at all levels. It would also perhaps prevent the academies and reserve teams of the big clubs doing untold damage to these 'man-child types'.
I haven't really spent much time thinking about all the ins and outs of this (although probably as long as the FA Commission spent on thinking up their ideas) so it may be another terrible idea!

Will Keane and other young English players on 13:44 - Jul 3 with 2600 views

loftboy

And which team would they replace?
And do you honestly think that championship level would ready these players for the likes of Germany and Barazil?

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Will Keane and other young English players on 14:01 - Jul 3 with 2555 views

runningman75

Will Keane and other young English players on 13:44 - Jul 3 by loftboy
And which team would they replace? And do you honestly think that championship level would ready these players for the likes of Germany and Barazil?

USA played well in the world cup. I would suggest MLS level is below that of the Championship.

Will Keane and other young English players on 14:03 - Jul 3 with 2547 views

willis1980

hmmm not sure about this, but it seems to work for those in the england cricket when they tour with the lions. it does sound like a logistical nightmare. i would say that any form of football is better than none, there are players who perform in the championship and do well when asked to step up into the prem. i think what is more important is stopping clubs from warehousing english talent like rodwell for example

Will Keane and other young English players on 14:06 - Jul 3 with 2534 views

daveB

One bold and crazy move would be for clubs to stop buying tons of players from abroad and give the English kids a game or two.

Listening to 5live has been depressing recently, tons of shows on how unfair it is that English kids don't get a chance then the same pundits picking which foreign players they want to see from the World Cup playing in England next season.

Until our clubs play English players and give English coaches a chance at managing at the highest level then nothing is going to change

Will Keane and other young English players on 14:12 - Jul 3 with 2521 views

MedwayR

I posted this during a discussion on here after England got knocked out of the world cup:

If you look at the current England squad a lot of them are products of football league or lower prem clubs.

GK's: Hart - Shrewsbury Town, Forster - Newcastle Utd, Foster - Stoke City
Def: Johnson - West Ham, Smalling - Maidstone Utd, Jagielka - Sheffield Utd, Cahill - Aston Villa, Phil Jones - Blackburn Rovers, Baines - Wigan Athletic, Shaw - Southampton
Mid: Gerrard - Liverpool, Wilshere - Arsenal, Lampard - West Ham, Henderson - Sunderland, Oxlade-Chamberlain - Southampton, Milner - Leeds Utd, Sterling - QPR, Lallana - Southampton, Barkley - Everton
For: Sturridge - Man City, Rooney - Everton, Welbeck - Man Utd, Lambert - Blackpool

So from our current squad only 4 players came from Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool or Arsenal academies including Sturridge who was at Man City before they had rich owners.

Add the following:
Ruddy - Cambridge Utd, Butland - Birmingham, Walker - Sheffield Utd, Shelvey - Charlton Athletic, Johnson - Middlesbrough, Carroll - Newcastle, Walcott - Southampton

Without even including future potential England players (Wickham - Ipswich Town, Berahino - WBA, Hughes - Derby County) you start to realise how much we (England) rely on smaller clubs who are less well equipped than the big clubs with their so-called super academies & training facilities to provide players for the national team. Surely the FA should recognise this and protect everyone from having their players stolen by the big clubs, but they come up with the B team idea instead of tackling the true problem which is the contribution the bigger/richer clubs make which is very little.

I'd suggest that rather than f*cking around with B teams & the football league the FA should stop big clubs stealing young players from smaller clubs without significant compensation and ensure that all clubs but particularly the big clubs give their young players opportunities. There is no point in clubs like Man City or chelsea having 'super' academies if the products of those academies do not get the opportunities to progress once they reach late teens/early twenties. Take McEachren for example, he looked a very good prospect when he played a few games for chelsea, since then he spent every season on loan at a level which probably hasn't challenged him enough, just loans for the sake of loans, that doesn't do anyone any good. When Beckham, Defoe, Lampard etc went on loan they soon progressed into the 1st team once they'd returned, the kids now don't get the chance to do that, they just get sent on loan again, we're likely to lose a generation of players because of this. I also reckon probably only half a dozen of the current England squad play regular champions league football, that can't help either.

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Will Keane and other young English players on 14:39 - Jul 3 with 2458 views

francisbowles

Excellent posts from Dave B and Medway R. I think the problem with them playing in the Championship, and with the USA team, is the style of football. Emphasis on physicality and running skills and lacking in skill and accurate passing ability.

We need to be studying the Dutch and German models. Dave Sexton (and others) recognised this forty odd years ago but we don't seem to have absorbed much.

Will Keane and other young English players on 14:52 - Jul 3 with 2439 views

Tonto

Medway - I agree in theory, but "significant compensation" is chicken feed to the big 4 or 5.

We got £5-600k for Stirling. Thats peanuts for Liverpool.

Its not significant compensation, it should be not allowed at all.

Even better, kids under 16 should not be associated with any club - have regional development run by the FA. Clubs can then bid for the kids (highest bidder wins right to negotiate), with the money going to the FA to run the centres... The contract negiation should allow the kid to negotiate some sort of career progression? perhaps that last bit is niave...

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Will Keane and other young English players on 14:52 - Jul 3 with 2439 views

MedwayR

Will Keane and other young English players on 14:39 - Jul 3 by francisbowles
Excellent posts from Dave B and Medway R. I think the problem with them playing in the Championship, and with the USA team, is the style of football. Emphasis on physicality and running skills and lacking in skill and accurate passing ability. We need to be studying the Dutch and German models. Dave Sexton (and others) recognised this forty odd years ago but we don't seem to have absorbed much.

The biggest difference between England & the likes of Germany is not technique but intelligence & decision making. When I've watched games in the World Cup almost every team knew what to do & when to do it, they tried to control the game whereas we are drilled in kick & rush football which is great to watch in the premier league & also the football league but not much use in a summer tounament like a World Cup.

When England were good we generally played a high tempo which was often identified as a problem, so we hired Eriksson & then Capello to change our style to a more Italian way of playing, except that our players couldn't adapt & we basically lost our identity. Now we're possibly getting that identity back a bit but need to realise that until we change our entire culture & national style of play - which is well ingrained due to several factors incl things like weather, so therefore that change isn't likely - we need to play to our strengths, ie high tempo, but build some intelligence into it so that we know when to play high-tempo & when to sit back & either absorb pressure or keep the ball.

Poll:

Who’s better?

Will Keane and other young English players on 15:00 - Jul 3 with 2413 views

Toast_R

Sorry mate but while the Premier League keeps rolling in the big money year after year after year, nothing will ever change.

All the successful English clubs are now owned by foreigners so there is no loyalty to the England national team. All they are concerned about is being in the Premier League the money they make from being in it and the possibility of getting in to the Champions League because of the money the get from that too.

English football sold its soul long ago. It’s irreversible now.

Will Keane and other young English players on 15:03 - Jul 3 with 2410 views

MedwayR

Will Keane and other young English players on 14:52 - Jul 3 by Tonto

Significant compensation doesn't always have to be money, although that should be a part of it and should always include sell-on fees.

If you had a limit on the amount of players a club could register at each age group they'd know their parameters & that if they wanted to sign x player they'd have to release y player, possibly to a direct rival. If there was a structured transfer system in place big clubs would know the financial implication of signing a player & the smaller clubs would know that if a player leaves they will receive a certain amount of compensation, if that system & compensation level is appropriate it will encourage smaller clubs to invest in their youth set-ups knowing if a player does leave they'll get money to reinvest.

You could also go further and have rules that if for example Man Utd sign a young player from Oldham, but then release that same player within say 3 years they will have to pay a fine & their 25 man prem lge squad will be reduced to 24 as punishment.

Youth players should be represented by the PFA to avoid agents influencing them from a young age and there should be a set wage for players until the age of 21 with extra-over money instead being put into insurance policies in case of injuries etc which will pay out at the age of 21 or older at the players wish in the event of no injuries, that way the players won't lose out on income.

Limits on foreign players in youth set-ups & homegrown quotas help but don't go far enough imo. The most important change required is providing pathways for our young players into competitive top level football.

[Post edited 3 Jul 2014 15:05]

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Will Keane and other young English players on 15:20 - Jul 3 with 2370 views

paulparker

How About the Fa & Prem League get together with the top clubs and then look to maybe invest or buy a stake in clubs in say the following countries Holland, Belgium, Mexico, Portugal, (the Fa would be the money men or owners )
if all of the top 8 gave say 3 players each, (those not on the fringes of the 1st team )
that's 24 players, 6 could go to each club where they get to play 1st team football in leagues which are high on technique and low on blood & thunder , each season you could rotate those players around the different clubs , until their clubs think they are ready to play in the 1st team back home
you could even appoint young English Coaches to help be Assistants at those clubs as well, to keep those foreign leagues sweet the Prem or Fa could bung the respective foreign Fa's a few million to keep their own leagues competitive ,
im sure there would be flaws in this but its got to be better than B Sides

And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles Brian Moore

Will Keane and other young English players on 15:30 - Jul 3 with 2351 views

hoof_hearted

Not much wrong with the players in the world cup but for a tournament you must have an inspirational coach. There isn't a season to teach things they have to give it everything like their lives depend on it.

Once again the FA chose the right coach for them to have dinner with and not the right man for winning anything.

Will Keane and other young English players on 15:53 - Jul 3 with 2323 views

MedwayR

Will Keane and other young English players on 15:30 - Jul 3 by hoof_hearted
Not much wrong with the players in the world cup but for a tournament you must have an inspirational coach. There isn't a season to teach things they have to give it everything like their lives depend on it. Once again the FA chose the right coach for them to have dinner with and not the right man for winning anything.

A lack of coaches at all levels is another problem, one which the FA should be taking seriously. I think to do your intoductory coaching course in Spain it doesn't cost anything, the equivalent in England costs over £100 I believe, the disparity continues the higher up you go through the coaching courses.

Also very few of our players go abroad & therefore do not expose themselves to different styles of play, and would also mean leaving their comfort zones and developing their personalities & mental strength. This is something which should also be encouraged at a young age, possibly with loans abroad at a good level, I notice Atletico Madrid have Oliver Torres going on loan to Porto next season for example.

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Will Keane and other young English players on 16:09 - Jul 3 with 2297 views

whittocksRs

It would be great if big clubs were hit with significant fines if they signed young lads and never played them. Something like a stipulation of a contract signing being that they must play in 10% of games once they've been at the club for more than say three years. If they miss the target, fines begin and don't stop until the situation is rectified.

Of course, I have no idea exactly how this would work, if it would work or who would push it through, and the clubs would certainly kibosh it through their lawyers and trade freedom regulations.

Will Keane and other young English players on 16:26 - Jul 3 with 2275 views

nadera78

I like the idea of limiting the number of players clubs can sign at different age groups, say 20 players maximum, and I'd include the EDS teams in that. Some of the big clubs have 50-60 professionals on their books. That would give a much better spread of youngsters around the country and more would have the opportunity to break through.

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