| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? 01:10 - Jul 20 with 3820 views | DiddyDave |
Pardon my ignorance,but I`ve been thinking about this Dale/Hornets tie up and it doesn`t make a lot of sense to me. I always thought that Dale owned the ground since day one,so why are they in an equal share thing with the oval ball guys of 47.5%. That makes 95%,so who owns the deciding 5%? If Dale did own the ground,why didn`t they just charge Hornets ex amount every time they played on it? Does anybody know how much each club pay to play on the hallowed turf anyway? If either club folds,does that mean the other half will have to stump up the other`s rent to keep the scheme alive? Hope somebody has some answers. |  | | |  |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 23:35 - Jul 21 with 1078 views | dingdangblue |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 23:16 - Jul 21 by Vespa |
It's not a piss take. The RFL didn't actually buy the shares, they just acquired them when the old Hornets defaulted on the £50k loan secured on them.
I'm told that the RFL list their share of Spotland on their balance sheet valued at £3m.
They could (in theory) accept an offer from the Dale of £50k plus maybe a bit of interest and not technically be out of pocket but that would mean they would have to wipe nearly £3m off their balance sheet and that wouldn't look good for them, especially with respect to credit they have taken. |
Surely then the Stadium Company should be investigating into the legality of Hornets putting up their 45% share of the Stadium for a 50k loan to an outside party? The whole thing stinks. |  |
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| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 04:14 - Jul 22 with 1049 views | DiddyDave |
Ok,thanks to everyone for their info,it sounds like the deal done in 1988 would not have happened today. Dale having to pay 100k to play on what was their own midden seems a bad idea to me,especially if the other mob only pay half that. Still,I guess it`s better than not owning your own ground at all as happened to Stockport,but why don`t the Stadium Company go out and try to get a big company to sponsor the ground,somebody like JJB Sports? Surely that would help to pay the substantial rent. Thanks again. | | | |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 06:59 - Jul 22 with 1040 views | ColDale |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 04:14 - Jul 22 by DiddyDave |
Ok,thanks to everyone for their info,it sounds like the deal done in 1988 would not have happened today. Dale having to pay 100k to play on what was their own midden seems a bad idea to me,especially if the other mob only pay half that. Still,I guess it`s better than not owning your own ground at all as happened to Stockport,but why don`t the Stadium Company go out and try to get a big company to sponsor the ground,somebody like JJB Sports? Surely that would help to pay the substantial rent. Thanks again. |
I think the club have for many years tried to attract a sponsor for the ground, but have been unable to find a company willing to pay the going rate. |  | | |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 09:48 - Jul 22 with 1021 views | JumeirahDale |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 23:35 - Jul 21 by dingdangblue |
Surely then the Stadium Company should be investigating into the legality of Hornets putting up their 45% share of the Stadium for a 50k loan to an outside party? The whole thing stinks. |
Don't think there's much we could do about it unfortunately. Unless there was a clause in the original Articles of Association of the Stadium Company forbidding using shares as security without permission of the other shareholders (or something to that effect) then I would assume Hornets' 45% share was theirs to p*ss away as they saw fit. |  | | |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 12:30 - Jul 22 with 981 views | BigKindo |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 09:48 - Jul 22 by JumeirahDale |
Don't think there's much we could do about it unfortunately. Unless there was a clause in the original Articles of Association of the Stadium Company forbidding using shares as security without permission of the other shareholders (or something to that effect) then I would assume Hornets' 45% share was theirs to p*ss away as they saw fit. |
There appears to be such a clause and I brought the matter up during the fans forum we had some 18 months ago. End result zilch. Message me with your email address if you would like a copy of the relevant legal ducuments.
For those who like a good read the Stadium accounts for 2011 showed:
Cash in bank £ 4,152
Net worth £ 944,113 i.e. Shareholders Funds minus Intangible Assets.
Total current liabilities £ 153,862
Total current assets £ 38,585
If the RFL are showing the shares they hold as being worth £ 3 million then perhaps there as been some creative accountancy. |  | | |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 20:59 - Jul 22 with 913 views | Pops2 |
Maybe the RFL could buy your share for £50k and own the whole stadium. You could then pay say 30k a year rent. Seems a good idea to me. | | | |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 21:03 - Jul 22 with 909 views | haroldo |
what percentage do we own of Accringtons ground? |  | | |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 21:07 - Jul 22 with 903 views | Pops2 |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 21:03 - Jul 22 by haroldo |
what percentage do we own of Accringtons ground? |
Whatever it is it won't be worth owt. Bigger dump than your gaff. | | | |
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| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 15:14 - Jul 23 with 830 views | Vespa |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 12:30 - Jul 22 by BigKindo |
There appears to be such a clause and I brought the matter up during the fans forum we had some 18 months ago. End result zilch. Message me with your email address if you would like a copy of the relevant legal ducuments.
For those who like a good read the Stadium accounts for 2011 showed:
Cash in bank £ 4,152
Net worth £ 944,113 i.e. Shareholders Funds minus Intangible Assets.
Total current liabilities £ 153,862
Total current assets £ 38,585
If the RFL are showing the shares they hold as being worth £ 3 million then perhaps there as been some creative accountancy. |
TBH I think the RFL could probably justify their valuation of their share of Spotland. A 45% stake valued at £3M would value the whole of the ground at £6.6M. What would a property development company pay for it? What would it cost to buy a site and build a bog standard 10,000 seat stadium?
I don't think the RFL would even sell their shares to Hornets (even if they had the money). Having an asset of £3M on their balance sheet means that financing costs for things like loans and overdrafts is cheaper for them. If it only meant that they paid 1% less a year for a £2M overdraft it would save them over £20,000 a year in financing costs which is why they wouldn't let it go cheaply, like I said not even to Hornets. |  |
| Up the Dale, C'mon Hornets |
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| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 15:20 - Jul 23 with 815 views | isitme |
How did the other partners in the stadium company agree to the old Hornets using their share are collateral for the loan they defaulted on? Surely this would have needed agreement by all parties before the terms of the loan were agreed with the RFL?
It seems that the whole issue of the RFL getting their hands on the shares happened due to a slight of hand? Also as a major shareholder how much does the RFL contribute to stadium upkeep etc? |  | | |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 15:21 - Jul 23 with 814 views | SuddenLad |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 15:14 - Jul 23 by Vespa |
TBH I think the RFL could probably justify their valuation of their share of Spotland. A 45% stake valued at £3M would value the whole of the ground at £6.6M. What would a property development company pay for it? What would it cost to buy a site and build a bog standard 10,000 seat stadium?
I don't think the RFL would even sell their shares to Hornets (even if they had the money). Having an asset of £3M on their balance sheet means that financing costs for things like loans and overdrafts is cheaper for them. If it only meant that they paid 1% less a year for a £2M overdraft it would save them over £20,000 a year in financing costs which is why they wouldn't let it go cheaply, like I said not even to Hornets. |
But when the legality of the transfer of the shares into their possession is dubious, why should they be in a position to consider such proposals in the first place ?
The RFL shouldn't even HAVE the shares, let alone be deciding what they are worth.  |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 15:29 - Jul 23 with 804 views | DaleAwaydayBot |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 15:14 - Jul 23 by Vespa |
TBH I think the RFL could probably justify their valuation of their share of Spotland. A 45% stake valued at £3M would value the whole of the ground at £6.6M. What would a property development company pay for it? What would it cost to buy a site and build a bog standard 10,000 seat stadium?
I don't think the RFL would even sell their shares to Hornets (even if they had the money). Having an asset of £3M on their balance sheet means that financing costs for things like loans and overdrafts is cheaper for them. If it only meant that they paid 1% less a year for a £2M overdraft it would save them over £20,000 a year in financing costs which is why they wouldn't let it go cheaply, like I said not even to Hornets. |
cant stand egg chasing teams let alone the RFL whichever funds first will be a reason to party I'm sure there is a word when shares are sold without other shareholders permission i know it'd break a legal document with the original 3 parties quiet like the idea of how RFL have done some very creative accounting though |  |
| After 3457 forum posts, 11 news comments & 1 match report....The Rochdale Information Robot were Born!!! |
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| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 15:52 - Jul 23 with 795 views | maybee |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 15:21 - Jul 23 by SuddenLad |
But when the legality of the transfer of the shares into their possession is dubious, why should they be in a position to consider such proposals in the first place ?
The RFL shouldn't even HAVE the shares, let alone be deciding what they are worth. |
My gut feeling on this (and I have not seen the M&A of the Stadium Co) is that any properly drawn up agreement between 3 parties would HAVE to include instructions for the transfer/sale of shares by one party. This is basic business practice, and would be included in any sort of partnership agreement. To not include such a clause would be amateurish.
I would be amazed if the selling party (in this case; Old Hornets) did not have to inform in writing the other two parties that they intended to sell/transfer (at the very least) Again, this should be clearly stated in the M&A.
It is clear that Old Hornets did not inform the other parties of their intention to transfer shares to the RFL.
Therefore, a quick look at the M&A of the Stadium Co would clear this up once & for all.
However...something inside me is nagging away. Surely, Dale would have already explored this most basic point, and therefore,if the findings are as above, then why has nothing been done? The only conclusion I can reach is that the M&A for some reason didn't include this section, in which case the Stadium Co agreement was not drawn up professionally, or that nobody knows where the M&A are, so it can't be checked!!!
It will all come down to money.
To challenge the transfer of shares would cost a considerable sum of money, and if we lost the case, it could cripple us.
As far as I know, the RFL have not paid anything by way of rent into the Stadium Co....they are merely holding onto an asset that they believe to have bought legally. |  | | |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 17:26 - Jul 23 with 765 views | Vespa |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 15:21 - Jul 23 by SuddenLad |
But when the legality of the transfer of the shares into their possession is dubious, why should they be in a position to consider such proposals in the first place ?
The RFL shouldn't even HAVE the shares, let alone be deciding what they are worth. |
The problem is that the administrators of the old Hornets decided it was legal otherwise they would have challenged the transfer and sold the shares for as much as they could get to cover costs and pay creditors.
Also the Dale didn't challenge the transfer of title to the shares when the transfer was accepted by the administrators 4 years ago and the longer any legal challenge is left the less chance it has of being successful.
Even if the Dale were to challenge the RFLs title to the shares why would a court award the shares in Denehurst Park to the Dale, it's much more likely that the shares would be offered to the highest bidder and the monies collected be used to pay of the taxman and other creditors. If there was any money left after such disbursements then the shareholders of the old Hornets would be the ones entitled to receive the balance.
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| Up the Dale, C'mon Hornets |
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| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 17:34 - Jul 23 with 753 views | isitme |
Vespa as you are a man in the know, could you answer me this question?
Being a major shareholder in the stadium company do you know whether the RFL contribute to running costs such as pitch maintenance etc? | | | |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 17:39 - Jul 23 with 727 views | fermin |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 17:26 - Jul 23 by Vespa |
The problem is that the administrators of the old Hornets decided it was legal otherwise they would have challenged the transfer and sold the shares for as much as they could get to cover costs and pay creditors.
Also the Dale didn't challenge the transfer of title to the shares when the transfer was accepted by the administrators 4 years ago and the longer any legal challenge is left the less chance it has of being successful.
Even if the Dale were to challenge the RFLs title to the shares why would a court award the shares in Denehurst Park to the Dale, it's much more likely that the shares would be offered to the highest bidder and the monies collected be used to pay of the taxman and other creditors. If there was any money left after such disbursements then the shareholders of the old Hornets would be the ones entitled to receive the balance.
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I thought someone from the Dale side had said they though the transfer from Hornets to the RFL was rather dodgy legally, but it was not worth the cost of pursuing it through the courts at the time (and presumably not now either). Could be wrong, though. |  | | |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 17:45 - Jul 23 with 722 views | SuddenLad |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 17:26 - Jul 23 by Vespa |
The problem is that the administrators of the old Hornets decided it was legal otherwise they would have challenged the transfer and sold the shares for as much as they could get to cover costs and pay creditors.
Also the Dale didn't challenge the transfer of title to the shares when the transfer was accepted by the administrators 4 years ago and the longer any legal challenge is left the less chance it has of being successful.
Even if the Dale were to challenge the RFLs title to the shares why would a court award the shares in Denehurst Park to the Dale, it's much more likely that the shares would be offered to the highest bidder and the monies collected be used to pay of the taxman and other creditors. If there was any money left after such disbursements then the shareholders of the old Hornets would be the ones entitled to receive the balance.
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Perhaps if the Dale were informed in advance of the transfer of shares to the RFL they might have voiced an opinion.
The cost of any legal challenge is likely to be extortionate to a club with tight finances so that avenue is/was probably out of the question in any case.
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| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 21:46 - Jul 23 with 672 views | Vespa |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 17:34 - Jul 23 by isitme |
Vespa as you are a man in the know, could you answer me this question?
Being a major shareholder in the stadium company do you know whether the RFL contribute to running costs such as pitch maintenance etc? |
I'm not sure I'm "the man in the know". I just know a few people involved with Hornets and the RFL, and a lot of people involved with the amateur game. I hear rumors and bits of tittle tattle that often prove to be not far from the truth (but often is just fantasies) so when I say something just bear that in mind and don't be putting your mortgage on it.
In theory all running costs for the stadium should be met by Denehurst Park who's revenue comes from the rent raised from the Dale and Hornets along with bar takings, food, car park etc (except stewarding and policing costs, I think these are met by each club respectively). There's is no legal requirement for any of the share holders to contribute to Denehurst Parks running costs, only on the tenants to pay their respective rents. So neither the Dale, the RFL or the RMBC are obliged to put any money in as a share holder and to the very best of my knowledge I don't think either the RFL or RMBC have done.
I know that when the old Hornets went bump that the Dale had to make up a short fall in revenues. I'm also told that the Dale do most of the administration work for Denehurst Park, as for the annual pitch relaying I really don't know whether Denehurst Park or the Dale pay for it. If Denehurst Park pay for it then Hornets indirectly pay a third of the costs and the Dale two thirds through their rent but I doubt that the RFL pay any thing. If the Dale pay directly for it then the RFL and Hornets don't pay for it.
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| Up the Dale, C'mon Hornets |
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| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 09:32 - Jul 24 with 620 views | pioneer |
| Do Dale own their Spotland ground? on 22:50 - Jul 21 by 442Dale |
Website says £12 for adults, and of course some fans will have season tickets/be concessions, but even if average crowds were 500 and they all had paid £12, gate receipts from the 7 home games would be £42k. There are 4 home games left. |
they had over 600 on sunday against some welsh team that keeps moving. | | | |
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