| Mason Holgate 14:16 - Feb 18 with 5178 views | Scoot |
Thank fuuckk we got rid when we did. Just got sent off after 13 mins against the chip eaters. |  |
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| Mason Holgate on 17:41 - Feb 19 with 1244 views | InTimeAddedOn |
| Mason Holgate on 13:59 - Feb 19 by PaleRider |
It's quite simple really:
1) Referees often make decisions that are crucial to the outcome of a match;
2) In any other walk of life people are accountable for their decisions. If I get things wrong in my business I am directly accountable. Referees seem to be immune from this;
3) There seems to be a lot less complaining about officials outside the Premier League - suggesting that many fans do understand the issues;
4) In the Premier League VAR was brought in to sort out clear mistakes. The fact that it is contentious is nothing to do with the technology - it's all to do with the operators;
5) The best referees are those who go un-noticed. They just get on with the job to the best of their abilities. They are not the stars of the show;
6) In most sports referees are made up of those who are not good enough to play the game and moreover are pedantic as they like rules! As a result they are usually not the most popular - it's a fact of life!
Conflating VAR with abuse at grass roots is frankly ridiculous, as is blaming everyone other than those at the root of the problem - PGMOL and referees themselves. |
Superb post PaleRider agree with all points but 5&6 are so so true - there should be a job waiting for you at the FA and in every separate VAR booth at The Asylum, sorry, vAR HQ, as the lunatics are running both I keep getting them confused. Just ignore any reply from SFC Ref as it will only be more diatribe from one of many deluded members of the fellowship of those that can do no wrong.
Good on you PaleRider, damned well said sir! |  | | |
| Mason Holgate on 17:49 - Feb 19 with 1240 views | LondonSaint76 |
| Mason Holgate on 16:30 - Feb 19 by PatfromPoole |
Words genuinely fail me. |
I know exactly what you mean Pat, the usual guff from a member of ‘Clan Referee’ - sadly nothing will ever change where they are concerned as the blinkers are welded on tight. I had the misfortune of having to work with numpties just like this example on Committees at League & County FA level for over 30 years and I can tell you it often got to the stage where I would be saying the exact same words you just have.
I had enough of this numpty a while ago so have just put him on ‘ignore members/posts’ so I don’t have to read the clan member’s outpourings - my daughter is over setting up a new PC and showed me the posts on her phone so just for once I’ve seen all the guff from the clan member which has just positively endorsed my decision to click on the lovely little red ‘x’ in the bottom right hand corner 😀 |  |
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| Mason Holgate on 18:15 - Feb 19 with 1201 views | LondonSaint76 |
| Mason Holgate on 13:59 - Feb 19 by PaleRider |
It's quite simple really:
1) Referees often make decisions that are crucial to the outcome of a match;
2) In any other walk of life people are accountable for their decisions. If I get things wrong in my business I am directly accountable. Referees seem to be immune from this;
3) There seems to be a lot less complaining about officials outside the Premier League - suggesting that many fans do understand the issues;
4) In the Premier League VAR was brought in to sort out clear mistakes. The fact that it is contentious is nothing to do with the technology - it's all to do with the operators;
5) The best referees are those who go un-noticed. They just get on with the job to the best of their abilities. They are not the stars of the show;
6) In most sports referees are made up of those who are not good enough to play the game and moreover are pedantic as they like rules! As a result they are usually not the most popular - it's a fact of life!
Conflating VAR with abuse at grass roots is frankly ridiculous, as is blaming everyone other than those at the root of the problem - PGMOL and referees themselves. |
👍🏼 100% agree PR, very well said indeed. I’ve normally got this SFCR numpty on ignore member/posts but my daughter is over so I have seen all his guff on this thread on her phone, some of it is unbelievable, that said, I’m not surprised in the slightest as those who are members of ‘Clan Referee’ seem to live on a different planet to the rest of us and will never change…
Anyway, very well said and how true and accurate what you have said is. If only the Refs we have to tolerate every week in the Championship and the PL were all more like point 5 and less like point 6 how much more enjoyable watching football would be… | |
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| Mason Holgate on 18:25 - Feb 19 with 1192 views | LondonSaint76 |
| Mason Holgate on 17:41 - Feb 19 by InTimeAddedOn |
Superb post PaleRider agree with all points but 5&6 are so so true - there should be a job waiting for you at the FA and in every separate VAR booth at The Asylum, sorry, vAR HQ, as the lunatics are running both I keep getting them confused. Just ignore any reply from SFC Ref as it will only be more diatribe from one of many deluded members of the fellowship of those that can do no wrong.
Good on you PaleRider, damned well said sir! |
As well as at the FA, there should be a PaleRider on every County FA Standing Committee and CFA Full Council in the country - would make football amin’s Committee rooms a far better place to be… | |
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| Mason Holgate on 20:38 - Feb 19 with 1109 views | LondonSaint76 |
Did exactly the same to me in response to a post about involving ex-players in the VAR decision making process when he didn’t like my post. Likewise totally wrong regards sending me off, he doesn’t have a clue about either of us, who we are or what we do… Pathetic response really - and from what he says, he clearly lives for sending people off on a Sunday and no doubt really enjoys it. Tin-pot Hitlers is what we used to call them at County FA Committee level - the mountains of paperwork his ilk caused and the endless appeals but you are spot on about the fact what hurts him is he’s got zero control over us. Best one we ever dealt with on a CFA appeal was a guy that went in for a slide tackle on a rain soaked and muddy local league pitch. Basically his shorts and undercrackers disappeared in a northerly direction where the sun doesn’t shine. The Ref had blown for a free kick, the player who now looked like he was wearing a thong got to his feet, bent over facing away from the Ref and extricated his shorts from where the sun does not shine - Ref sends him off for mooning at him!!! Fortunately they were videoing the game and won the appeal. Crystal clear on the vid what actually happened. Appeal upheld in about 15 mins flat then onto the next one…
CFA’s do the appeals so it landed on our Committee’s desk. One of many totally wasted evenings due to Clan Ref and his cohorts.Think we’ve both got him on ignore now as it’s just not worth reading all the guff… [Post edited 19 Feb 20:40]
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| Mason Holgate on 08:03 - Feb 20 with 1004 views | PaleRider |
| Mason Holgate on 16:48 - Feb 19 by SFC_Referee |
1) so do players, yet when both a player and a ref messes up in a game which costs a team, it’s usually mainly the ref you hear about on MOTD, who’s blamed for it all, and not the players, even though if they’d taken their chances wouldn’t of needed to rely on the refs decisions.
2) refs are quite often held accountable, it’s just like in any other job they’re not sacked for making 1 mistake, and when they are dealt with it’s not all big front page news when ones demoted/given less important games, whilst that is the case when managers are sacked/star players getting benched. Which is why unless you bother paying attention to it all, then you can’t compare them as that’s what most footballing fans seem to do.
3) again heard this so many times before but it’s just pure nonsense, as there was loads of complaining in the recent European games, yet none of the games with the issues had an English ref. And as someone who’s got many connections to refs and footballing fans abroad, they all make the same of their refs as we make of ours, so that’s just pure waffle.
4) ok but that’s mainly down to the LOTG and what they’re told to do, as other than the guidelines for handballs, VAR is operated just the same across the world, yet it’s just that many don’t like VAR and how it’s used which is what causes these issues, and that’s got little down to the operators but rather what IFAB decides and what their leagues want them to do. As it wasn’t all the refs begging to have VAR a few years back.
5) As much as that saying is true to a certain degree, it’s not always the case, as we’ve all seen those games that there were many 50:50 decisions, and due to it being an important game was always gonna get loads of attention around it all. So yeah that saying is correct to a certain degree, but it can’t always be kept to as there’s many games that it didn’t matter of who officiated it as there was always gonna be issues and controversy.
6) yeah many weren’t good enough for their sports, but unlike others they didn’t give up and just chuck in the towel, but rather decided to contribute to the games they loved in another way. And usually may aren’t that pedantic about rules, but rather that if they want to be a pro ref or do the World Cup final, then they have to keep to the LOTG otherwise they won’t be able to progress. As just like your work example before, if your work has a rule that you don’t like, but you wanna progress up the ladder, then you’ve gotta listen to those rules to be able to do so, otherwise you won’t get promoted and won’t get to progress. As it’s not like the refs are the ones that get to decide the LOTG or how handballs should work.
And the reason I compare VAR to grassroots, is because we have a lack of refs in the country, and are getting such low numbers for new younger refs coming through. All of which is something that I think anyone who’s involved in the game can agree on and have seen, which is caused by all the abuse the refs get at all levels of the game, as well as how they’re basically never praised yet are non stop criticised, often for decisions they got right (like the red card in the Sheffield uni the d game!). All of which puts off many and make many quite refereeing.
Due to all of this, that leads to a lack of competition for the next generation of refs to hit the top level, that lack of competition means that it’s easier for the worse refs to go up the league and get to the higher ones sooner, which is a key reason why the quality of officiating may not always be the best, because we don’t have enough refs out there to be as picky as we want to be. All of which is that factual that you really just can’t argue about it as it’s exactly what’s caused the situation we’re in today.
But what is ridiculous is for many like yourselves to non stop moan about it all, even though you’re not helping the situation yourselves otherwise why don’t you go out and start refereeing? As there’s such a lack of them that anyone can do it. As really you’re just being a hypocrite by consistently criticising them yet not having the balls to do it yourself! |
Thanks for your reply, which I've now had a chance to wade through. Let me address your points:
1) I'm not interested in pundits on MOTD but the views of fans around me at matches etc. There is a huge amount of criticism and abuse of players and managers who make mistakes so your point is just wrong. Secondly, refs in the Premier League are meant to be the best of the best and are aided by both assistants and technology. They still make some significant mistakes;
2) "Refs are quite often held accountable" - in other words they're also not held accountable! The problem is that the accountability doesn't appear transparent. In addition, it's not about sacking someone after one mistake (which is a bit of a hysterical statement) but about referees showing a degree of humility or contrition and willingness to learn from mistakes;
3) My mistake - I meant in England outside of the Premier League. As a Saints fan on a Saints forum I am most concerned with the Championship. There seems to be a much greater acceptance amongst fans that referees don't always get things right. Why? It's because refs in the Premier League are meant to be the best of the best and are aided by both assistants and technology but still make some significant mistakes;
4) I have no problem with the technology or VAR - it's the application of it that is problematic. To suggest that it's down to the LOTG seems flimsy - it's clearly the operators that, once again, make mistakes;
5) It's not about controversial decisions but the "look at me" attitude of certain referees. The majority of fans go to matches for the excitement, atmosphere etc. created by the players (the stars of the show). I'm sure those that go to watch the referee in action are in the minority. Referees are bit parts to the main event;
6) I'd love to know what your job is because what you have written about the world of work doesn't apply to many people who are highly successful (not mediocre) in their fields - (as an extreme take Elon Musk as an example!).
The grass roots issue is more of a societal issue than simply down to justified criticism of referees getting major decisions wrong. there is a lack of respect towards authority particularly where the authority appears flawed (we see this towards police for example). Is it right? Of course not but it is a much wider, more complex issue.
I find your last sentence insulting and pathetic and childish - I do not "moan non-stop" about referees. I post on this forum very rarely and have tried to provided valid comments. also you know nothing about me. When my son used to compete in a different sport (FYI he represented GB at World & European Championships) , I did referee at a very junior level in order to help out!
Frankly your whole, defensive attitude sums up what is wrong with refereeing as a whole - there's a lack of humility and contrition and a significant amount of "it's someone else's fault". Everyone wants the standard to improve and the only way to do that is through rigorous self-examination - not knee-jerk defence. | | | |
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| Mason Holgate on 10:25 - Feb 20 with 929 views | Manhattan_Lynx |
| Mason Holgate on 16:48 - Feb 19 by SFC_Referee |
1) so do players, yet when both a player and a ref messes up in a game which costs a team, it’s usually mainly the ref you hear about on MOTD, who’s blamed for it all, and not the players, even though if they’d taken their chances wouldn’t of needed to rely on the refs decisions.
2) refs are quite often held accountable, it’s just like in any other job they’re not sacked for making 1 mistake, and when they are dealt with it’s not all big front page news when ones demoted/given less important games, whilst that is the case when managers are sacked/star players getting benched. Which is why unless you bother paying attention to it all, then you can’t compare them as that’s what most footballing fans seem to do.
3) again heard this so many times before but it’s just pure nonsense, as there was loads of complaining in the recent European games, yet none of the games with the issues had an English ref. And as someone who’s got many connections to refs and footballing fans abroad, they all make the same of their refs as we make of ours, so that’s just pure waffle.
4) ok but that’s mainly down to the LOTG and what they’re told to do, as other than the guidelines for handballs, VAR is operated just the same across the world, yet it’s just that many don’t like VAR and how it’s used which is what causes these issues, and that’s got little down to the operators but rather what IFAB decides and what their leagues want them to do. As it wasn’t all the refs begging to have VAR a few years back.
5) As much as that saying is true to a certain degree, it’s not always the case, as we’ve all seen those games that there were many 50:50 decisions, and due to it being an important game was always gonna get loads of attention around it all. So yeah that saying is correct to a certain degree, but it can’t always be kept to as there’s many games that it didn’t matter of who officiated it as there was always gonna be issues and controversy.
6) yeah many weren’t good enough for their sports, but unlike others they didn’t give up and just chuck in the towel, but rather decided to contribute to the games they loved in another way. And usually may aren’t that pedantic about rules, but rather that if they want to be a pro ref or do the World Cup final, then they have to keep to the LOTG otherwise they won’t be able to progress. As just like your work example before, if your work has a rule that you don’t like, but you wanna progress up the ladder, then you’ve gotta listen to those rules to be able to do so, otherwise you won’t get promoted and won’t get to progress. As it’s not like the refs are the ones that get to decide the LOTG or how handballs should work.
And the reason I compare VAR to grassroots, is because we have a lack of refs in the country, and are getting such low numbers for new younger refs coming through. All of which is something that I think anyone who’s involved in the game can agree on and have seen, which is caused by all the abuse the refs get at all levels of the game, as well as how they’re basically never praised yet are non stop criticised, often for decisions they got right (like the red card in the Sheffield uni the d game!). All of which puts off many and make many quite refereeing.
Due to all of this, that leads to a lack of competition for the next generation of refs to hit the top level, that lack of competition means that it’s easier for the worse refs to go up the league and get to the higher ones sooner, which is a key reason why the quality of officiating may not always be the best, because we don’t have enough refs out there to be as picky as we want to be. All of which is that factual that you really just can’t argue about it as it’s exactly what’s caused the situation we’re in today.
But what is ridiculous is for many like yourselves to non stop moan about it all, even though you’re not helping the situation yourselves otherwise why don’t you go out and start refereeing? As there’s such a lack of them that anyone can do it. As really you’re just being a hypocrite by consistently criticising them yet not having the balls to do it yourself! |
TLDR.
There's just the one person non-stop moaning that I can see here. |  | | |
| Mason Holgate on 16:43 - Feb 20 with 865 views | saint22 |
| Mason Holgate on 08:03 - Feb 20 by PaleRider |
Thanks for your reply, which I've now had a chance to wade through. Let me address your points:
1) I'm not interested in pundits on MOTD but the views of fans around me at matches etc. There is a huge amount of criticism and abuse of players and managers who make mistakes so your point is just wrong. Secondly, refs in the Premier League are meant to be the best of the best and are aided by both assistants and technology. They still make some significant mistakes;
2) "Refs are quite often held accountable" - in other words they're also not held accountable! The problem is that the accountability doesn't appear transparent. In addition, it's not about sacking someone after one mistake (which is a bit of a hysterical statement) but about referees showing a degree of humility or contrition and willingness to learn from mistakes;
3) My mistake - I meant in England outside of the Premier League. As a Saints fan on a Saints forum I am most concerned with the Championship. There seems to be a much greater acceptance amongst fans that referees don't always get things right. Why? It's because refs in the Premier League are meant to be the best of the best and are aided by both assistants and technology but still make some significant mistakes;
4) I have no problem with the technology or VAR - it's the application of it that is problematic. To suggest that it's down to the LOTG seems flimsy - it's clearly the operators that, once again, make mistakes;
5) It's not about controversial decisions but the "look at me" attitude of certain referees. The majority of fans go to matches for the excitement, atmosphere etc. created by the players (the stars of the show). I'm sure those that go to watch the referee in action are in the minority. Referees are bit parts to the main event;
6) I'd love to know what your job is because what you have written about the world of work doesn't apply to many people who are highly successful (not mediocre) in their fields - (as an extreme take Elon Musk as an example!).
The grass roots issue is more of a societal issue than simply down to justified criticism of referees getting major decisions wrong. there is a lack of respect towards authority particularly where the authority appears flawed (we see this towards police for example). Is it right? Of course not but it is a much wider, more complex issue.
I find your last sentence insulting and pathetic and childish - I do not "moan non-stop" about referees. I post on this forum very rarely and have tried to provided valid comments. also you know nothing about me. When my son used to compete in a different sport (FYI he represented GB at World & European Championships) , I did referee at a very junior level in order to help out!
Frankly your whole, defensive attitude sums up what is wrong with refereeing as a whole - there's a lack of humility and contrition and a significant amount of "it's someone else's fault". Everyone wants the standard to improve and the only way to do that is through rigorous self-examination - not knee-jerk defence. |
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| Mason Holgate on 17:48 - Feb 20 with 832 views | InTimeAddedOn |
| Mason Holgate on 08:03 - Feb 20 by PaleRider |
Thanks for your reply, which I've now had a chance to wade through. Let me address your points:
1) I'm not interested in pundits on MOTD but the views of fans around me at matches etc. There is a huge amount of criticism and abuse of players and managers who make mistakes so your point is just wrong. Secondly, refs in the Premier League are meant to be the best of the best and are aided by both assistants and technology. They still make some significant mistakes;
2) "Refs are quite often held accountable" - in other words they're also not held accountable! The problem is that the accountability doesn't appear transparent. In addition, it's not about sacking someone after one mistake (which is a bit of a hysterical statement) but about referees showing a degree of humility or contrition and willingness to learn from mistakes;
3) My mistake - I meant in England outside of the Premier League. As a Saints fan on a Saints forum I am most concerned with the Championship. There seems to be a much greater acceptance amongst fans that referees don't always get things right. Why? It's because refs in the Premier League are meant to be the best of the best and are aided by both assistants and technology but still make some significant mistakes;
4) I have no problem with the technology or VAR - it's the application of it that is problematic. To suggest that it's down to the LOTG seems flimsy - it's clearly the operators that, once again, make mistakes;
5) It's not about controversial decisions but the "look at me" attitude of certain referees. The majority of fans go to matches for the excitement, atmosphere etc. created by the players (the stars of the show). I'm sure those that go to watch the referee in action are in the minority. Referees are bit parts to the main event;
6) I'd love to know what your job is because what you have written about the world of work doesn't apply to many people who are highly successful (not mediocre) in their fields - (as an extreme take Elon Musk as an example!).
The grass roots issue is more of a societal issue than simply down to justified criticism of referees getting major decisions wrong. there is a lack of respect towards authority particularly where the authority appears flawed (we see this towards police for example). Is it right? Of course not but it is a much wider, more complex issue.
I find your last sentence insulting and pathetic and childish - I do not "moan non-stop" about referees. I post on this forum very rarely and have tried to provided valid comments. also you know nothing about me. When my son used to compete in a different sport (FYI he represented GB at World & European Championships) , I did referee at a very junior level in order to help out!
Frankly your whole, defensive attitude sums up what is wrong with refereeing as a whole - there's a lack of humility and contrition and a significant amount of "it's someone else's fault". Everyone wants the standard to improve and the only way to do that is through rigorous self-examination - not knee-jerk defence. |
Superb response again PaleRider, as you have noticed some responses from SFC Ref are quite childish, it reminds me of the sort of comments that emanate from a playground full of ten year olds. Excellent stuff, keep up the good work | | | |
| Mason Holgate on 18:24 - Feb 22 with 741 views | LondonSaint76 |
| Mason Holgate on 08:03 - Feb 20 by PaleRider |
Thanks for your reply, which I've now had a chance to wade through. Let me address your points:
1) I'm not interested in pundits on MOTD but the views of fans around me at matches etc. There is a huge amount of criticism and abuse of players and managers who make mistakes so your point is just wrong. Secondly, refs in the Premier League are meant to be the best of the best and are aided by both assistants and technology. They still make some significant mistakes;
2) "Refs are quite often held accountable" - in other words they're also not held accountable! The problem is that the accountability doesn't appear transparent. In addition, it's not about sacking someone after one mistake (which is a bit of a hysterical statement) but about referees showing a degree of humility or contrition and willingness to learn from mistakes;
3) My mistake - I meant in England outside of the Premier League. As a Saints fan on a Saints forum I am most concerned with the Championship. There seems to be a much greater acceptance amongst fans that referees don't always get things right. Why? It's because refs in the Premier League are meant to be the best of the best and are aided by both assistants and technology but still make some significant mistakes;
4) I have no problem with the technology or VAR - it's the application of it that is problematic. To suggest that it's down to the LOTG seems flimsy - it's clearly the operators that, once again, make mistakes;
5) It's not about controversial decisions but the "look at me" attitude of certain referees. The majority of fans go to matches for the excitement, atmosphere etc. created by the players (the stars of the show). I'm sure those that go to watch the referee in action are in the minority. Referees are bit parts to the main event;
6) I'd love to know what your job is because what you have written about the world of work doesn't apply to many people who are highly successful (not mediocre) in their fields - (as an extreme take Elon Musk as an example!).
The grass roots issue is more of a societal issue than simply down to justified criticism of referees getting major decisions wrong. there is a lack of respect towards authority particularly where the authority appears flawed (we see this towards police for example). Is it right? Of course not but it is a much wider, more complex issue.
I find your last sentence insulting and pathetic and childish - I do not "moan non-stop" about referees. I post on this forum very rarely and have tried to provided valid comments. also you know nothing about me. When my son used to compete in a different sport (FYI he represented GB at World & European Championships) , I did referee at a very junior level in order to help out!
Frankly your whole, defensive attitude sums up what is wrong with refereeing as a whole - there's a lack of humility and contrition and a significant amount of "it's someone else's fault". Everyone wants the standard to improve and the only way to do that is through rigorous self-examination - not knee-jerk defence. |
SFC Referee, consider yourself owned by Pale Rider…
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| Mason Holgate on 21:17 - Feb 22 with 683 views | pjt50 |
To get some perspective, PL refs make around 250 (according to Sky) near instant decisions in the space of a match – all with a load of people trying to con them & a load more continually whinging in their ear.
It's calculated they make an average of 5 errors per game – so they're right 98% of the time. Pretty good I reckon. I certainly wouldn't want the job.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11096/10808860/referee-myth-busting-how- | |
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