| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 16:17 - Dec 30 with 2485 views | TVOS1907 |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 16:00 - Dec 30 by Nigeriamark |
Having suffered 2 of the scenarios you mentioned, I’m not sure they will as it’s not in the same league, but it’s still a pain in the arse anyway |
So a minor inconvenience as opposed to being "shafted", a bit like missing cricket matches in Sri Lanka? |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 16:30 - Dec 30 with 2430 views | Shun |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 09:31 - Dec 30 by TVOS1907 |
I'm sure all those people who have died, been hospitalised, lost their friends/relatives or lost their jobs and livelihood feel your pain. |
Bit unfair that. |  | | |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 17:00 - Dec 30 with 2346 views | TVOS1907 |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 16:30 - Dec 30 by Shun |
Bit unfair that. |
I don't think it is Shun. It's all about priorities and perspective. I'm surprised you think otherwise given your line of work and general level-headedness on most matters. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 17:29 - Dec 30 with 2278 views | fitzochris |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 16:30 - Dec 30 by Shun |
Bit unfair that. |
I disagree. I think anybody planning anything based on international travel at the moment needs to be prepared for disappointment. |  |
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 17:39 - Dec 30 with 2255 views | isitme |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 17:00 - Dec 30 by TVOS1907 |
I don't think it is Shun. It's all about priorities and perspective. I'm surprised you think otherwise given your line of work and general level-headedness on most matters. |
Are you any the wiser what is going on next week? |  | | |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 17:43 - Dec 30 with 2234 views | 442Dale |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 17:39 - Dec 30 by isitme |
Are you any the wiser what is going on next week? |
Glad it wasn’t just me about the schools info. If there’s one thing they haven’t really improved throughout this is ensuring there’s clear, consistent details available immediately to accompany announcements. Not that it’s always wrong, but it’s hit and miss. |  |
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 17:43 - Dec 30 with 2232 views | TVOS1907 |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 17:39 - Dec 30 by isitme |
Are you any the wiser what is going on next week? |
No.
I'll wait for the email from school. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 18:07 - Dec 30 with 2183 views | D_Alien |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 17:29 - Dec 30 by fitzochris |
I disagree. I think anybody planning anything based on international travel at the moment needs to be prepared for disappointment. |
Absolutely this
We also had the spectacle reported of hundreds of UK citizens, including whole families escaping from ski resorts when new restrictions were announced. Some hoteliers only found out their guests had left when they didn't turn up for meals and went to check their rooms!
It's this type of behaviour that contributes to spikes in infection - not forgetting that Italy was overwhelmed during the early part of the year by skiers returning from the slopes where the virus was rampant
I'm afraid anyone complaining about being caught out abroad is undeserving of any sympathy, imo
[Post edited 30 Dec 2020 18:08]
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 18:10 - Dec 30 with 2165 views | Nigeriamark |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 18:07 - Dec 30 by D_Alien |
Absolutely this
We also had the spectacle reported of hundreds of UK citizens, including whole families escaping from ski resorts when new restrictions were announced. Some hoteliers only found out their guests had left when they didn't turn up for meals and went to check their rooms!
It's this type of behaviour that contributes to spikes in infection - not forgetting that Italy was overwhelmed during the early part of the year by skiers returning from the slopes where the virus was rampant
I'm afraid anyone complaining about being caught out abroad is undeserving of any sympathy, imo
[Post edited 30 Dec 2020 18:08]
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Perhaps if you had a teenage daughter in Norway who has only seen her father once since last Christmas, you may have a different view. Not the same as those running away from ski resorts or getting pissed on an Australian beach |  | | |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 18:11 - Dec 30 with 2158 views | D_Alien |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 18:10 - Dec 30 by Nigeriamark |
Perhaps if you had a teenage daughter in Norway who has only seen her father once since last Christmas, you may have a different view. Not the same as those running away from ski resorts or getting pissed on an Australian beach |
But that's not how you characterised your "shafting", is it?
"Was on the way to see my girlfriend for only the second time since last Jan & she has gone to town on a New Year Celebration for us including prime seats to Nutcracker ballet at the Kiev opera house which is the biggest show of the year ( not a huge ballet fan but would have been a good experience) also a special meal booked"
I'm not going to argue about it - it's done
[Post edited 30 Dec 2020 18:13]
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 18:20 - Dec 30 with 2120 views | Nigeriamark |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 18:11 - Dec 30 by D_Alien |
But that's not how you characterised your "shafting", is it?
"Was on the way to see my girlfriend for only the second time since last Jan & she has gone to town on a New Year Celebration for us including prime seats to Nutcracker ballet at the Kiev opera house which is the biggest show of the year ( not a huge ballet fan but would have been a good experience) also a special meal booked"
I'm not going to argue about it - it's done
[Post edited 30 Dec 2020 18:13]
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I have a daughter in Norway and a girlfriend in Ukraine so it was a genuine effort to see both. I followed the rules to get into Norway. I had also followed the rules as of 4.30 this morning when checking in. Most changes have given some notice i.e starting at midnight which they could have done last night. to let people check onto the early flights and then request Covid tests in the 2 hours between checking in and boarding in my view is a shafting. its not as if something happened in that couple of hours
anyway we can agree to disagree, & happy new year | | | |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 18:20 - Dec 30 with 2123 views | isitme |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 17:43 - Dec 30 by 442Dale |
Glad it wasn’t just me about the schools info. If there’s one thing they haven’t really improved throughout this is ensuring there’s clear, consistent details available immediately to accompany announcements. Not that it’s always wrong, but it’s hit and miss. |
One big problem is that they do not have all the information ready when they make the announcements, The example today - schools will open in two weeks apart from some schools in areas which we will publish later!
It does not help senior leaders who are often having to email staff today with 'we think' arrangements which will change when the detail is released by the DFE. | | | |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 18:25 - Dec 30 with 2101 views | TVOS1907 |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 18:20 - Dec 30 by isitme |
One big problem is that they do not have all the information ready when they make the announcements, The example today - schools will open in two weeks apart from some schools in areas which we will publish later!
It does not help senior leaders who are often having to email staff today with 'we think' arrangements which will change when the detail is released by the DFE. |
Why don't they have all the information when they make the announcements? That's amateurish preparation
They seem to expect schools and teachers to perform miracles at the drop of a hat, yet don't display the same level of professionalism themselves. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 20:19 - Dec 30 with 1946 views | nordenblue |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 16:04 - Dec 30 by 442Dale |
Football started again when it was deemed safe to do so, like most other activities. It’ll stop again when it’s not. A good point was made around the way players/staff are behaving and taking their eyes of the ball a bit (no pun). If it is now a sufficient risk in transmission, they should stop; such a fast moving situation.
Something they’ll be looking at with places like schools too which of course will mean some parents being unable to work again - a difficult balancing act. |
Its not just something thats cropped up,that a new risk is suddenly there, the same risks were clearly there when it started as they currently are its not ever changing one bit,more an ever present.
There doesn't need to be any balancing act, its not essential nor a priority to belt a football around a pitch, comparing children's educational needs and the risks attached to that of sport being far from essential is pretty futile. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 20:33]
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 20:35 - Dec 30 with 1926 views | 442Dale |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 20:19 - Dec 30 by nordenblue |
Its not just something thats cropped up,that a new risk is suddenly there, the same risks were clearly there when it started as they currently are its not ever changing one bit,more an ever present.
There doesn't need to be any balancing act, its not essential nor a priority to belt a football around a pitch, comparing children's educational needs and the risks attached to that of sport being far from essential is pretty futile. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 20:33]
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When football started again, and all sport for that matter, the numbers justified it. It wasn’t a case of what was essential or not, it was what was deemed safe.
Which is why we now see some primary schools down south being closed and other schools across the country changing their dates when children will return. There’s not a comparison involved, it’s about each area/activity being assessed at a moment in time and decisions being made, albeit ones that are up for debate.
Is it essential for a lower league footballer to be working any more than a gardener who gets in a van with his team or a barman in a pub or a sales assistant in Primark before Christmas? They’re all trying to earn a living. It’s all assessed individually based on risk/numbers of cases at the time. Totally agree we all have different views on whether any of those should or shouldn’t be happening, but there’s no definitive argument only opinion. Much as there will be with schools right now, something we all agree should be open if it’s safe to do so. | |
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 20:51 - Dec 30 with 1885 views | nordenblue |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 20:35 - Dec 30 by 442Dale |
When football started again, and all sport for that matter, the numbers justified it. It wasn’t a case of what was essential or not, it was what was deemed safe.
Which is why we now see some primary schools down south being closed and other schools across the country changing their dates when children will return. There’s not a comparison involved, it’s about each area/activity being assessed at a moment in time and decisions being made, albeit ones that are up for debate.
Is it essential for a lower league footballer to be working any more than a gardener who gets in a van with his team or a barman in a pub or a sales assistant in Primark before Christmas? They’re all trying to earn a living. It’s all assessed individually based on risk/numbers of cases at the time. Totally agree we all have different views on whether any of those should or shouldn’t be happening, but there’s no definitive argument only opinion. Much as there will be with schools right now, something we all agree should be open if it’s safe to do so. |
I agree with the majority of what you post to be honest 442 and again a very good post, I just personally can't see how/why they could possibly allow games to be played let alone crowds in the ground too while there was such an obvious risk to the whole country it makes no sense at all, it was as sure as night following day that players,coaches,staff would spread it like wild fire and so it transpires. Going to the Trafford Centre even up until today has been "deemed covid safe", whilst hundreds queue outside and inside.....yeah right pull the other one.
My mrs works in travel so I'm massively aware how this shitty virus has influenced many jobs and to what degree of chaos keeping things shut does create, she's probably in THE worst sector to be hit along with hospitality, but again do I think stopping travel,flights etc is currently the right decision, fooking right it is it's common sense. | | | |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 21:19 - Dec 30 with 1841 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 18:20 - Dec 30 by isitme |
One big problem is that they do not have all the information ready when they make the announcements, The example today - schools will open in two weeks apart from some schools in areas which we will publish later!
It does not help senior leaders who are often having to email staff today with 'we think' arrangements which will change when the detail is released by the DFE. |
I can’t decide whether you think:
(a) there is a conspiracy;
(b) the government is incompetent; and/or
(c) you could do a better job because you would obtain the correct information, which seemingly, according to you, nobody in government, and the scientists and data analysts it relies upon, seem to be capable of obtaining or are negligently unwilling to obtain. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 21:22]
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 21:55 - Dec 30 with 1797 views | James1980 |
I think we were at a disadvantage before anyone had even heard of covid19, due to the people's attitude to flu. People claiming they have flu when they really have a bad cold. I had a colleague who would come into work saying she had a bit of flu when she clearly had a cold, I'd say I'm pretty sure you have a cold if it was flu you wouldn't be at work. Anyway attitudes like that lead to people saying 'it is only the flu' forgetting we have a vaccine for the flu and to stop the NHS getting overloaded in the winter those most at risk are invited to be immunised and those less at risk are encouraged to purchase one from their local pharmacist.
We haven't been a country that wears masks I'd say we have been encouraged to be suspicious of people who cover their face. At the start of the pandemic mask wearing was discouraged, I think this was due to concerns about people panic buying them and stockpiling. When supplies were too low to cater for healthcare workers and the wider population.
All those in elevated positions that broke lockdown made people think it cannot be that important to follow the rules because look these people aren't. I do believe Cummings should have been criticised more than he was by his boss. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 21:58]
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 12:58 - Dec 31 with 1571 views | isitme |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 21:19 - Dec 30 by BigDaveMyCock |
I can’t decide whether you think:
(a) there is a conspiracy;
(b) the government is incompetent; and/or
(c) you could do a better job because you would obtain the correct information, which seemingly, according to you, nobody in government, and the scientists and data analysts it relies upon, seem to be capable of obtaining or are negligently unwilling to obtain. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 21:22]
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Short answer
a) There is no doubting that Covid is the new king in town and is the number one respiratory infection. It has taken either directly or as the straw on an already over burdened camel, thousands of vulnerable peopl, there is no denying that. Also there is no denying that for the vast majority of people it is a relatively harmless virus that is so dangerous that you need a test to tell you you have it and the cure for it is to isolate for 10 days. The average age of a Covid death is 82, the average age of any cause death in the UK is 81. Covid is not killing thousands of who would be classed as 'healthy people'. The majority are over the age of 75, mostly with multiple, complex preexisting conditions. Whilst I do not think there is a 'great reset', Covid has seen a number of winners who are doing very well out of this situation who would like the status quo to continue. Hancock tweeted today that 50 million tests have been carried out. I dread to think how much that has cost.
b) Yes the government has been incompetent - the failure to close borders initially, mass testing of asymptomatics using tests that are not fit for purpose, lockdown and tier regulations, schools, gym closures etc. The worst thing that happened was Boris ending up in intensive care with it. After that Covid became the only game in town and as I have said numerous times the cure has been worse than the disease. The economic and social impact, especially that still to come has not been worth the price paid.
c) There is no such thing as the correct information. Data creates questions, it does not provide the answers. My issue is why these scientists with these decisions and what are their vested interests? Ferguson's model has been proven to be widely inaccurate on numerous occasions, not just for Covid. A number of computer scientists have argued at length how bad his model is. Look at the Whiity and Vallance 'prediction that was not a prediction' that was used to bounce the country into the second lockdown that model was widly incorrect. Why can't other estemed and qualified scientists such as Carl Heneghan etc be allowed to debate with MPs the advise provided by SAGE so that it is at least challenged and contrary views aired and discussed? That way better decisions could end up being made? To me it seems that a path has been taken which cannot be altered even if things do not appear to be working. Lockdowns haven't worked so we need more lockdowns. Tiers have not worked so we need more tiers with stricter measures. Testing hasn't worked so we need more testing, more often and of people who do not appear ill.
Now you do not need to decide what I think as it is laid out for you. I will gladly expand on any of the points made if you would like to debate them. Shun asked why I am against mass testing of asymptomatics to which I outlined my objections clearly and he is yet to refute any of the points I made. [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 13:21]
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 13:53 - Dec 31 with 1507 views | D_Alien |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 12:58 - Dec 31 by isitme |
Short answer
a) There is no doubting that Covid is the new king in town and is the number one respiratory infection. It has taken either directly or as the straw on an already over burdened camel, thousands of vulnerable peopl, there is no denying that. Also there is no denying that for the vast majority of people it is a relatively harmless virus that is so dangerous that you need a test to tell you you have it and the cure for it is to isolate for 10 days. The average age of a Covid death is 82, the average age of any cause death in the UK is 81. Covid is not killing thousands of who would be classed as 'healthy people'. The majority are over the age of 75, mostly with multiple, complex preexisting conditions. Whilst I do not think there is a 'great reset', Covid has seen a number of winners who are doing very well out of this situation who would like the status quo to continue. Hancock tweeted today that 50 million tests have been carried out. I dread to think how much that has cost.
b) Yes the government has been incompetent - the failure to close borders initially, mass testing of asymptomatics using tests that are not fit for purpose, lockdown and tier regulations, schools, gym closures etc. The worst thing that happened was Boris ending up in intensive care with it. After that Covid became the only game in town and as I have said numerous times the cure has been worse than the disease. The economic and social impact, especially that still to come has not been worth the price paid.
c) There is no such thing as the correct information. Data creates questions, it does not provide the answers. My issue is why these scientists with these decisions and what are their vested interests? Ferguson's model has been proven to be widely inaccurate on numerous occasions, not just for Covid. A number of computer scientists have argued at length how bad his model is. Look at the Whiity and Vallance 'prediction that was not a prediction' that was used to bounce the country into the second lockdown that model was widly incorrect. Why can't other estemed and qualified scientists such as Carl Heneghan etc be allowed to debate with MPs the advise provided by SAGE so that it is at least challenged and contrary views aired and discussed? That way better decisions could end up being made? To me it seems that a path has been taken which cannot be altered even if things do not appear to be working. Lockdowns haven't worked so we need more lockdowns. Tiers have not worked so we need more tiers with stricter measures. Testing hasn't worked so we need more testing, more often and of people who do not appear ill.
Now you do not need to decide what I think as it is laid out for you. I will gladly expand on any of the points made if you would like to debate them. Shun asked why I am against mass testing of asymptomatics to which I outlined my objections clearly and he is yet to refute any of the points I made. [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 13:21]
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In an even shorter answer, might i politely suggest that neither Shun nor anyone else for that matter is in a position to 'refute' your points & objections, since they're simply a matter of opinion
And nothing wrong with science-based opinions. It's my opinion that its impossible to compute whether the Covid measures are 'worse' than the effects of the virus, but i'm pretty sure that it'd be political suicide to base policy on that guess
[Post edited 31 Dec 2020 13:54]
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 14:09 - Dec 31 with 1466 views | isitme |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 13:53 - Dec 31 by D_Alien |
In an even shorter answer, might i politely suggest that neither Shun nor anyone else for that matter is in a position to 'refute' your points & objections, since they're simply a matter of opinion
And nothing wrong with science-based opinions. It's my opinion that its impossible to compute whether the Covid measures are 'worse' than the effects of the virus, but i'm pretty sure that it'd be political suicide to base policy on that guess
[Post edited 31 Dec 2020 13:54]
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The limitations of the tests are well documented which is why Shun has chosen not to/been unable to refute them. My opinion as to why this makes mass testing of people without symptoms pointless is as you rightly say, a science based opinion (formed on the basis of the limitations of the tests), can be rejected with different opinions offered, which may hopefully be science based. My opinions are neither right or wrong but I have been asked two specific questions which I have answered.
I would agree with you that it would take a very brave prime minister (which we do not have) to not follow the consensus. Time will tell if the correct decisions have been made. [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 14:12]
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 15:00 - Dec 31 with 1411 views | SunningDale |
I honestly can't believe that people are still losing their minds over this virus with a survival rate of 99.7%. How many people who keep bleating about protecting the NHS are still smoking, drinking too much, eating a crap diet, getting little to no exercise and generally refusing to take much responsibility for their own health? These will still be costing the NHS billions long after Covid 19 has been forgotten., | |
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 15:12 - Dec 31 with 1384 views | D_Alien |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 14:09 - Dec 31 by isitme |
The limitations of the tests are well documented which is why Shun has chosen not to/been unable to refute them. My opinion as to why this makes mass testing of people without symptoms pointless is as you rightly say, a science based opinion (formed on the basis of the limitations of the tests), can be rejected with different opinions offered, which may hopefully be science based. My opinions are neither right or wrong but I have been asked two specific questions which I have answered.
I would agree with you that it would take a very brave prime minister (which we do not have) to not follow the consensus. Time will tell if the correct decisions have been made. [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 14:12]
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I must disagree with you about your PM comment, which you state as if its a matter of fact, but once again, i must point out is merely an opinion
I would suggest (and hopefully without turning this debate into a political one) that someone prepared to take on the EU, parliament and the Supreme Court is not lacking in courage - which imo is why he secured an 80-seat majority
It's not a lack of courage, simply a lack of any previous modern equivalent of the Covid crisis which has people thrashing out for someone to blame. No doubt, mistakes have been made and that's only to be expected given the wide divergences in scientific opinion on almost every single matter of policy. I personally admire his fortitude in maintaining his sense of political balance during two of the biggest peacetime crises this country has faced
All of which is my opinion, and there have been and will no doubt be future debates on here about it, but perhaps we can park that there - my main point being about opinions versus facts
[Post edited 31 Dec 2020 15:14]
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| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 16:41 - Dec 31 with 1270 views | dalenumber2 |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 17:59 - Dec 29 by TVOS1907 |
Cheers
It's interesting that people seem to think 'online learning' happens by osmosis, because all Gove and Williamson have wittered on about this week is the mass testing.
I spent a few hours yesterday afternoon rehashing what I had spent a few hours doing on the day we broke up to be ready for next week.
Even now I don't know if that will be right because we are expecting years 11 & 13 only, but the way this lot treat education, they'll probably decide something else before Monday; or even on Monday.
We also don't know which and how many key workers' children or vulnerable children will be there until they turn up or their parents let school know they're attending, so how schools are supposed to make plans and provision for them at the moment is a mystery.
Gove and Williamson et al seem to have forgotten to mention this as well.
I agree with you about people administering tests. One thing they have yet again forgot to mention is how schools are supposed to magic up sufficient space and facilities to allow this to take place to fit in with their own guidelines on cleanliness, social distancing, isolating, etc.
Gove also said "we are talking to teachers and Headteachers". That would be a first for him and if you follow Vic Goddard on Twitter, it's not entirely accurate.
As you can tell, I'm not impressed.
Edit: just to add, I'll do whatever I have to in order to ensure my pupils get the best they can from me next week, but that can only happen with a bit more support from those making decisions. [Post edited 29 Dec 2020 18:05]
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I am in exactly the same position as you TVOS, and agree with everything you say. |  | | |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 16:49 - Dec 31 with 1258 views | TVOS1907 |
| "Covid-19: Continuation of football in England 'not wise', on 16:41 - Dec 31 by dalenumber2 |
I am in exactly the same position as you TVOS, and agree with everything you say. |
Cheers, but I'm reassured by Williamson saying this morning that there's no reason why schools can't organise their testing programme next week.......
Erm, maybe because we aren't medical practitioners, for starters, in addition to some of the things I outlined earlier.
If only they had let schools do some planning for this in the last week of term instead of threatening those that wanted to close with legal action.
The bloke hasn't got a clue. Just watch him disappear next week. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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