| Sign it... on 11:52 - Mar 21 with 2470 views | Sandyman |
At the time of the referendum, I asked several leavers **HOW** we were going to leave. Didn't get a sensible answer. Heard a few "we'll go over there and tell 'em what we want and get it" naive remarks. As if negotiation ever worked that way. Leave campaign couldn't explain how except for a few "it will be easy" comments. 1001 days later, we're still no wiser and we're due to leave in 8 days.
The powers that be (the ones who actually make the decisions, not the man in the pub who knows it all yet affects nothing) can't agree on how.
Another fine mess? Sure is. How will it all end? Haven't a clue! |  | |  |
| Sign it... on 12:09 - Mar 21 with 2439 views | 49thseason |
| Sign it... on 11:52 - Mar 21 by Sandyman |
At the time of the referendum, I asked several leavers **HOW** we were going to leave. Didn't get a sensible answer. Heard a few "we'll go over there and tell 'em what we want and get it" naive remarks. As if negotiation ever worked that way. Leave campaign couldn't explain how except for a few "it will be easy" comments. 1001 days later, we're still no wiser and we're due to leave in 8 days.
The powers that be (the ones who actually make the decisions, not the man in the pub who knows it all yet affects nothing) can't agree on how.
Another fine mess? Sure is. How will it all end? Haven't a clue! |
You make a fair point and perhaps if the country had accepted the referendum decision and had presented a united front we might have been in a much stronger negotiating position. As it is the law says we leave at 11pm next Friday only another act of Parliament can change that, it seems unlikely that May can force a change of the law in the time available as it has to be debated in the Commons and the Lords.
The EU has been encouraged to be inflexible by the divisions within the UK mainly encouraged by the UK media and people who have vested interests in staying in including the PM and most of the cabinet. Leaving on WTO rules puts us on a level field with the rest of the world, reducing all tariffs to zero would put the UK in a very strong position and would make the protectionist EU customs Union untenable.
John Bright's repeal of the corn laws in the 19th century heralded a golden period of trade for the UK , scrapping tariffs could do the same in the rest of the 21st century. |  | | |
| Sign it... on 12:34 - Mar 21 with 2379 views | rod_leach |
| Sign it... on 12:09 - Mar 21 by 49thseason |
You make a fair point and perhaps if the country had accepted the referendum decision and had presented a united front we might have been in a much stronger negotiating position. As it is the law says we leave at 11pm next Friday only another act of Parliament can change that, it seems unlikely that May can force a change of the law in the time available as it has to be debated in the Commons and the Lords.
The EU has been encouraged to be inflexible by the divisions within the UK mainly encouraged by the UK media and people who have vested interests in staying in including the PM and most of the cabinet. Leaving on WTO rules puts us on a level field with the rest of the world, reducing all tariffs to zero would put the UK in a very strong position and would make the protectionist EU customs Union untenable.
John Bright's repeal of the corn laws in the 19th century heralded a golden period of trade for the UK , scrapping tariffs could do the same in the rest of the 21st century. |
I view leaving without a deal like falling off a cliff. No way am I getting behind that,
May's deal is like being in the EU but with no say and losing the freedom to live and move anywhere in the EU. No way am I getting behind that either.
Give me a choice of something that's better than what we've currently got and there's a chance I'll get behind it. |  | | |
| Sign it... on 12:37 - Mar 21 with 2374 views | rod_leach |
Surely if you are removing tariffs, then you need a reciprocal arrangement at the other end for stuff we're exporting? That means making deals, which we currently have very few of. Doesn't the EU have many trade deals which contain zero tariff deals already? | | | |
| Sign it... on 13:06 - Mar 21 with 2325 views | off2div1 |
Its Good to see world wide support for your votes
The 'Revoke Article 50' Petition has signatures from:
506 Denmark
263 Luxembourg
995 Canada
139 Cyprus
3126 Germany
7156 France
310 Greece
402 Hong Kong
1191 Rep Ireland
783 Italy
239 Japan
3987 Spain
+ Signatures from Vatican City, North Korea, South Sudan & the 'Western Sahara' |  | | |
| Sign it... on 13:15 - Mar 21 with 2313 views | 49thseason |
| Sign it... on 12:37 - Mar 21 by rod_leach |
Surely if you are removing tariffs, then you need a reciprocal arrangement at the other end for stuff we're exporting? That means making deals, which we currently have very few of. Doesn't the EU have many trade deals which contain zero tariff deals already? |
The EU claims that about 70% of its imports are at zero tariff, but it protects its internal market fiercely with for example tariffs of 56% on non EU beef and up to 70% on whole milk. There is 2p tariff on every banana that comes from outside the EU. The effect is to kill trade with countries desperate to sell produce to Europe, Argentinian beef, Chilian wine, NZ Lamb, West indies Bananas etc etc. These tariffs indicate that we are paying far too much for food simply to protect French farmers and wine growers from competition.
EU external trade agreements accounted for only 11% of UK food imports in 2017.
In the event of a WTO brexit, we can invoke article 24 of the WTO rules which provides for the EU and the UK to continue using the existing agreement (zero tariffs) for a period of up to 10 years to allow for a new free trade agreement between the EU and UK to be put in place. | | | |
| Sign it... on 13:24 - Mar 21 with 2298 views | Sandyman |
| Sign it... on 13:06 - Mar 21 by off2div1 |
Its Good to see world wide support for your votes
The 'Revoke Article 50' Petition has signatures from:
506 Denmark
263 Luxembourg
995 Canada
139 Cyprus
3126 Germany
7156 France
310 Greece
402 Hong Kong
1191 Rep Ireland
783 Italy
239 Japan
3987 Spain
+ Signatures from Vatican City, North Korea, South Sudan & the 'Western Sahara' |
Could well be from Brits working / holidaying / living in those places. Who knows!! | | | |
| Sign it... on 13:24 - Mar 21 with 2298 views | SandyDrum |
| Sign it... on 13:06 - Mar 21 by off2div1 |
Its Good to see world wide support for your votes
The 'Revoke Article 50' Petition has signatures from:
506 Denmark
263 Luxembourg
995 Canada
139 Cyprus
3126 Germany
7156 France
310 Greece
402 Hong Kong
1191 Rep Ireland
783 Italy
239 Japan
3987 Spain
+ Signatures from Vatican City, North Korea, South Sudan & the 'Western Sahara' |
It's almost as if there's this thing called 'Ex-patriots'.... or 'immigrants' who have moved from the UK to these countries for work, imagine that!
Also just so you know, the petition has:
856,954 signatures from the United Kingdom which makes up 96.02% of the total signatures, but don't let facts get in the way of anything.
Also, you use Vatican City, NK, South Sudan and Western Sahara in your post.
There have been a total of SIX signatures from these countries which makes up a grand total of 0.0006% of the total signatures. [Post edited 21 Mar 2019 13:24]
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| Wish I'd chosen a different username... |
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| Sign it... on 13:30 - Mar 21 with 2282 views | judd |
Is this the Eurovision gubbins again? |  |
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| Sign it... on 13:35 - Mar 21 with 2267 views | DaleFan7 |
Don't really agree with the 'Sign it...' then linking something that is obviously going to divide opinion.
Since power has been given to parliament regarding the deal etc the only way we can realistically leave the EU is with no deal. There are too many differing opinions on what Brexit should be and what the EU allow. Corbyn is living in his usual fantasy land thinking he could go over and just negotiate and get exactly what he wants. Put on top of this the party politics, power struggle within the Tory camp and Labour's only concern being forcing a general election then we're never going to get an 'orderly' exit.
The dilemma then is do you take it back to the people and give the option of remain, or come out with no deal? Would the kick back be massive in the constituencies that voted to leave, especially ones where their MP voted to remain. Whatever the result of the 2nd referendum wouldn't appease the opposite side so then do we have best of 3?
It's all a massive mess. I think the only realistic options are to stay in the EU or leave without a deal on WTO and then try and negotiate from there. | | | |
| Sign it... on 13:42 - Mar 21 with 2253 views | rochdale_ranger |
| Sign it... on 13:24 - Mar 21 by SandyDrum |
It's almost as if there's this thing called 'Ex-patriots'.... or 'immigrants' who have moved from the UK to these countries for work, imagine that!
Also just so you know, the petition has:
856,954 signatures from the United Kingdom which makes up 96.02% of the total signatures, but don't let facts get in the way of anything.
Also, you use Vatican City, NK, South Sudan and Western Sahara in your post.
There have been a total of SIX signatures from these countries which makes up a grand total of 0.0006% of the total signatures. [Post edited 21 Mar 2019 13:24]
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Petitions and polls don’t mean anything. There was opportunity to make ground after the referendum by perhaps showing a united front instead the two main parties stuck to infighting and slinging mud. The best thing to do now would be to pull out on no deal terms. |  | | |
| Sign it... on 13:45 - Mar 21 with 2244 views | SandyDrum |
| Sign it... on 13:42 - Mar 21 by rochdale_ranger |
Petitions and polls don’t mean anything. There was opportunity to make ground after the referendum by perhaps showing a united front instead the two main parties stuck to infighting and slinging mud. The best thing to do now would be to pull out on no deal terms. |
RR, I agree that this petition will likely achieve sweet FA.
I'm just trying to make a point that far too often people make statements without actually looking into the facts in an attempt to swing other people's opinions.
The whole thing has been a shambles from start to finish and whatever the outcome I just hope it happens soon because I'm sick of it | |
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| Sign it... on 13:55 - Mar 21 with 2228 views | frenzied |
I cant make head nor tail of anything to be honest
Cant recall the irish border or issues with Gibralter being mentioned in the campaign
All I recall is shed loads of dosh being given weekly to the NHS and tight immigration processes to stop 24M Turks turning up.
I voted to remain ..I couldn't see us getting a good deal from Europe as the major powers within it ie France and Germany are keen to keep the EU in tact and to give us a good deal could encourage others to seek an exit also.
Why anyone believes any other politician would be offered a better deal than Teresa May has come back with also baffles me..The Eu have behaved dreadfully at times looking at humiliating us at every opportunity..im amazed TM has stuck with it for so long..Cameron couldn't wait to leg it!! | | | |
| Sign it... on 14:43 - Mar 21 with 2146 views | Morden |
| Sign it... on 13:35 - Mar 21 by DaleFan7 |
Don't really agree with the 'Sign it...' then linking something that is obviously going to divide opinion.
Since power has been given to parliament regarding the deal etc the only way we can realistically leave the EU is with no deal. There are too many differing opinions on what Brexit should be and what the EU allow. Corbyn is living in his usual fantasy land thinking he could go over and just negotiate and get exactly what he wants. Put on top of this the party politics, power struggle within the Tory camp and Labour's only concern being forcing a general election then we're never going to get an 'orderly' exit.
The dilemma then is do you take it back to the people and give the option of remain, or come out with no deal? Would the kick back be massive in the constituencies that voted to leave, especially ones where their MP voted to remain. Whatever the result of the 2nd referendum wouldn't appease the opposite side so then do we have best of 3?
It's all a massive mess. I think the only realistic options are to stay in the EU or leave without a deal on WTO and then try and negotiate from there. |
Totally agree with this. No Deal or Remain are the only viable options; and it should be put back to the people. We know what they look like now. After 2 years of talk nobody is going to be better informed (or less confused) than now. There wouldn't be a 3rd referendum. I'm all for doing what the people want but this is such a big thing, we better had make damn sure that it is what the people want
To Jonesy who was waiting for a 'We didn't know what we were voting for'
Fair enough, I'm sure you did know. A lot didn't |  | | |
| Sign it... on 14:47 - Mar 21 with 2136 views | TheBeast666 |
I voted leave and proud of it. The EU is a moneymaking machine for international financiers, German and French banks and Financial Institutions do very well out off it, UK gets some benefits but overall is bullied by unelected faceless bureaucrats.
Common market was one thing, and we signed up to that but now EU is a political and social mechanism that we did not agree to back in the day, with its aim to standardise the whole of Europe and reduce any national interests (unless you are German or French !)
Rochdale voted 60% leave, no point arguing over those who didnt vote, that argument is always irrelevant.
Facts :
1. 406 constituencies voted leave, 242 remain , thats a clear democratic decision
2. MPs who openly declared their referendum votes : 248 leave, 400 remain, the problem is clearly MP's who are trying to undermine the democratic will of the UK
3. There are estimated 480/500 remainer MP's in the Commons, ie close on 80%
4. 148 Labour constituencies voted leave, 84 remain, yet the vast majority of Labour MP's refuse to back a deal
The problem is , especially Labour MPs, who are playing party politics, will not support the democratic will of their constituents who put them in power, Rochdale MP included
Corbyn want a customs union, I voted leave , to leave the EU, not to have a back door deal with them, a 'Hotel California' Brexit, where you can check out but never leave !
Customs Union would not allow independent trade deals and would tie us to EU forever, Corbyn thus is wilfully ignoring democracy by supporting a tie in to EU in terms of unfettered immigration from EU via free movement, no world trade deals and we still pay in
FFS - Leave means leave, no need to sign a pathetic petition, the people have spoken, we leave the EU , get over it and accept the result. | | | |
| Sign it... on 14:50 - Mar 21 with 2132 views | SandyDrum |
| Sign it... on 14:47 - Mar 21 by TheBeast666 |
I voted leave and proud of it. The EU is a moneymaking machine for international financiers, German and French banks and Financial Institutions do very well out off it, UK gets some benefits but overall is bullied by unelected faceless bureaucrats.
Common market was one thing, and we signed up to that but now EU is a political and social mechanism that we did not agree to back in the day, with its aim to standardise the whole of Europe and reduce any national interests (unless you are German or French !)
Rochdale voted 60% leave, no point arguing over those who didnt vote, that argument is always irrelevant.
Facts :
1. 406 constituencies voted leave, 242 remain , thats a clear democratic decision
2. MPs who openly declared their referendum votes : 248 leave, 400 remain, the problem is clearly MP's who are trying to undermine the democratic will of the UK
3. There are estimated 480/500 remainer MP's in the Commons, ie close on 80%
4. 148 Labour constituencies voted leave, 84 remain, yet the vast majority of Labour MP's refuse to back a deal
The problem is , especially Labour MPs, who are playing party politics, will not support the democratic will of their constituents who put them in power, Rochdale MP included
Corbyn want a customs union, I voted leave , to leave the EU, not to have a back door deal with them, a 'Hotel California' Brexit, where you can check out but never leave !
Customs Union would not allow independent trade deals and would tie us to EU forever, Corbyn thus is wilfully ignoring democracy by supporting a tie in to EU in terms of unfettered immigration from EU via free movement, no world trade deals and we still pay in
FFS - Leave means leave, no need to sign a pathetic petition, the people have spoken, we leave the EU , get over it and accept the result. |
You were doing so well and I respected your post until that last paragraph.
Why does it always turn into someone spitting their dummy out, calling other people's opinions pathetic and saying get over it, so frustrating how we can't seem to have a decent conversation without it turning to that. [Post edited 21 Mar 2019 14:50]
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| Wish I'd chosen a different username... |
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| Sign it... on 14:53 - Mar 21 with 2121 views | electricblue |
Just reading the news and May is to rule out no real as she arrives for the extension talks..
How democratic is that it surely cant be...
The way May is pushing it is that its her Deal.....well then what!
Again she aint a clue...
The offer again should be her deal or a no deal.....
Ok i know that no deal is unchartered etc but dont tell me that whitehall dont know what a no deal involves because i bet they have it planned in readiness.... |  |
| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| Sign it... on 14:56 - Mar 21 with 2120 views | TheBeast666 |
| Sign it... on 14:50 - Mar 21 by SandyDrum |
You were doing so well and I respected your post until that last paragraph.
Why does it always turn into someone spitting their dummy out, calling other people's opinions pathetic and saying get over it, so frustrating how we can't seem to have a decent conversation without it turning to that. [Post edited 21 Mar 2019 14:50]
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The idea of a petition to change a referendum because you dont like the result is pathetic in my opinion, not the fact someone has an opinion different to mine, thats the richness of being in a democracy.
If Remain had won the public vote, I would not be asking for a second referendum or to backtrack on the decision just because my views differ.
It's about respecting a democratic decision even if you dont agree with it. No personal offence intended, it's the principle I find unacceptable, not to honour a democratic decision | | | |
| Sign it... on 14:56 - Mar 21 with 2117 views | rochdale_ranger |
| Sign it... on 14:53 - Mar 21 by electricblue |
Just reading the news and May is to rule out no real as she arrives for the extension talks..
How democratic is that it surely cant be...
The way May is pushing it is that its her Deal.....well then what!
Again she aint a clue...
The offer again should be her deal or a no deal.....
Ok i know that no deal is unchartered etc but dont tell me that whitehall dont know what a no deal involves because i bet they have it planned in readiness.... |
Taking no deal off the cards is the most stupid negotiation tactic imaginable. Pull out on WTO terms. | | | |
| Sign it... on 15:06 - Mar 21 with 2105 views | SandyDrum |
| Sign it... on 14:56 - Mar 21 by TheBeast666 |
The idea of a petition to change a referendum because you dont like the result is pathetic in my opinion, not the fact someone has an opinion different to mine, thats the richness of being in a democracy.
If Remain had won the public vote, I would not be asking for a second referendum or to backtrack on the decision just because my views differ.
It's about respecting a democratic decision even if you dont agree with it. No personal offence intended, it's the principle I find unacceptable, not to honour a democratic decision |
The idea of the petition is to revoke Article 50, not forever - but for now so that the powers that be can actually put together something worth leaving for.
For some brief respite from the utter chaos that has been Brexit since Article 50 was invoked 2 years ago.
I wouldn't necessarily be asking for a 2nd referendum, but do you really think this country is ready to leave the European Union in 8 days time?
In my opinion, what SHOULD happen is:
Article 50 is revoked under the premise that there is not to be a 2nd referendum
Theresa May resigns and gets out of this mess that she has created
The new Conservative PM calls for a general election
We take a step back as a country, allow the new PM to start a fresh with the EU and put together a deal that can take us out of the EU in a dignified manner
I respect the referendum result, be it legally binding or not. In an ideal world for myself (I'm young and I work in the travel industry so my job is reliant on a stable economy and people being able to travel) we would have remained, but I can't change that.
What I want NOW is for the above to happen so we can move forward as a country and dig ourselves out of this hole that we've dug ourselves into. | |
| Wish I'd chosen a different username... |
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| Sign it... on 15:12 - Mar 21 with 2097 views | TheBeast666 |
| Sign it... on 15:06 - Mar 21 by SandyDrum |
The idea of the petition is to revoke Article 50, not forever - but for now so that the powers that be can actually put together something worth leaving for.
For some brief respite from the utter chaos that has been Brexit since Article 50 was invoked 2 years ago.
I wouldn't necessarily be asking for a 2nd referendum, but do you really think this country is ready to leave the European Union in 8 days time?
In my opinion, what SHOULD happen is:
Article 50 is revoked under the premise that there is not to be a 2nd referendum
Theresa May resigns and gets out of this mess that she has created
The new Conservative PM calls for a general election
We take a step back as a country, allow the new PM to start a fresh with the EU and put together a deal that can take us out of the EU in a dignified manner
I respect the referendum result, be it legally binding or not. In an ideal world for myself (I'm young and I work in the travel industry so my job is reliant on a stable economy and people being able to travel) we would have remained, but I can't change that.
What I want NOW is for the above to happen so we can move forward as a country and dig ourselves out of this hole that we've dug ourselves into. |
Yes, good post, sensible, practical and articulate, well done. | | | |
| Sign it... on 15:16 - Mar 21 with 2086 views | judd |
We never had any of these problems when we had white dog turds. | |
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| Sign it... on 15:21 - Mar 21 with 2079 views | DaleFan7 |
Taking no deal off the table during negotiations is just plain stupid. MPs know it but most of them want to remain so voted for it.
The only thing you do by taking no deal off the table is say to the EU. You can give us whatever deal you want and if we don't like it we'll just stay. | | | |
| Sign it... on 15:21 - Mar 21 with 2077 views | D_Alien |
| Sign it... on 15:16 - Mar 21 by judd |
We never had any of these problems when we had white dog turds. |
Funny you should mention that... when i was a kid we had a dog that ate white dog turds
Anyone know if they're particularly nutritious?
[Post edited 21 Mar 2019 15:22]
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| Sign it... on 15:22 - Mar 21 with 2073 views | SuddenLad |
Bang on the money with that. The EU have set their stall out from Day 1, to make life as difficult as possible and to make an example of us.
We were never going to get anything approaching fairness, regardless of who was our PM of who was in Government.
Plenty of these EU leaders have treated us with disdain and flicked their wrists at us, as if we're flies on a turd. They have shown their true colours and what they really think of the British
The sooner we leave the lot of them to squabble amongst themselves,the better we will be
Good luck trying to sell your BMW's, Audi's, Citroens, Fiats etc. to Guinea-Bissau or South Sudan. |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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