| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 08:28 - Mar 2 with 2148 views | TalkingSutty |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 08:19 - Mar 2 by nordenblue |
While I share your caution I'm not quite as sceptical, only folk deep within the trust will know the full details regarding what has/hasn't been discussed regarding potential investors, that's not my place to speculate on.
This "bargain" £2 million purchase is not really a bargain from where im looking, they're buying a business that's knowingly losing money hand over fist and currently hasn't a pit to piss in, and a current chairman wanting a considerable amount of his money back, the only real way I can see that they'll make any real "profit" is if we manage to jump up the leagues, that could be 10 years down the line but again that will take a shit load of investment to stand any chance of that anyway so they're intial £2 million could well prove a drop in the ocean to what it actually takes to make us a more attractive proposition to sell on to possibly best case break even by that point.
Unless anyone can find a fan that's willing to pump thousands in a month just to stand still I'm afraid we have to be open to outside investors, there's not many other options currently on the table. [Post edited 2 Mar 8:24]
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They could build on it, use it as a sporting college of some sort with student accomodation for American scholars. The club could be secondary in their plans and if they can't fund it then they replace the stadium with something else, maybe multi sized football pitches and classrooms etc.The £2 million is a bargain for the club and the land, the value of it will keep increasing. They might do the opposite and return us to EFL 1 but either way it will be their club to do with as they choose. [Post edited 2 Mar 8:44]
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| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 09:00 - Mar 2 with 2062 views | nordenblue |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 08:28 - Mar 2 by TalkingSutty |
They could build on it, use it as a sporting college of some sort with student accomodation for American scholars. The club could be secondary in their plans and if they can't fund it then they replace the stadium with something else, maybe multi sized football pitches and classrooms etc.The £2 million is a bargain for the club and the land, the value of it will keep increasing. They might do the opposite and return us to EFL 1 but either way it will be their club to do with as they choose. [Post edited 2 Mar 8:44]
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They'll still have to spend hundreds of thousands, even millions on it to change its use into anything else or to add additional buildings, pitches, college etc onto it, its far from a get rich quick scheme whatever path they choose.
When you're constantly pissing money into a black hole without a pot to piss in as back up its not the best of bargaining positions to even start calling the shots what it's "worth", it's only worth what someone will pay in the current climate for it, you're not just selling a plot of land either, you're selling a loss making business that's very much attached to it.
I have my doubts TS massively, as it feels very much like a forced even shoved step into the unknown. [Post edited 2 Mar 9:01]
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| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 09:03 - Mar 2 with 2059 views | DaleiLama |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 07:43 - Mar 2 by TalkingSutty |
Well other investors have come forward, we were told that last week.We've been told a lot of things by numerous people over the last few years but it transpired that most of it wasn't true. Maybe a potential investor might agree to plug that gap in order to buy some time because Gauge has stipulated numerous times that he's not putting anymore into the club after the end of this month. The clubs not going to be liquidated if we take another month to explore all options, nobody is going to let that happen to a asset rich club with potential investors lined up. The council won't sit back and let that happen for a start, irrespective of what some suggest..lose the football and rugby club for the sake of covering a one or two months shortfall, there would be a National outcry for a start. The end of March deadline is set to create panic and the opposite is now needed, clear heads, especially if there are better alternatives to the one that Gauge has presented us with. [Post edited 2 Mar 7:54]
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'Maybe a potential investor might agree to plug that gap in order to buy some time'
There will be bills of £160k for RAFC to pay at the end of March.
In housing terms, what you suggest is the equivalent of a house being on the market for £300k, the owners being in arrears by 24k (the same % as £160k/£2m) with the lender about to foreclose. You've had a look at the estate agents bumpf and you offer to pay the houseowners arrears of £24k so you would have a chance to buy the house after you've viewed it several times and done a survey and decide a/ you want it and b/ you can agree on a price and c/ someone doesn't come along and offer more.
Sound reasonable?
I think most heads are clear as to what is needed now. DA above has summarised exactly where I ended up also. It isn't what most fans want, but nor are a lot of things associated with the changes in modern football. I'm sure your grandad would turn in his grave if he could come back and spend a Saturday watching BBM ball, VAR, player power, finances etc etc |  |
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| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 09:08 - Mar 2 with 2037 views | TalkingSutty |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 09:00 - Mar 2 by nordenblue |
They'll still have to spend hundreds of thousands, even millions on it to change its use into anything else or to add additional buildings, pitches, college etc onto it, its far from a get rich quick scheme whatever path they choose.
When you're constantly pissing money into a black hole without a pot to piss in as back up its not the best of bargaining positions to even start calling the shots what it's "worth", it's only worth what someone will pay in the current climate for it, you're not just selling a plot of land either, you're selling a loss making business that's very much attached to it.
I have my doubts TS massively, as it feels very much like a forced even shoved step into the unknown. [Post edited 2 Mar 9:01]
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Your last point is the crux of the matter. | | | |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 09:17 - Mar 2 with 2000 views | TalkingSutty |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 09:03 - Mar 2 by DaleiLama |
'Maybe a potential investor might agree to plug that gap in order to buy some time'
There will be bills of £160k for RAFC to pay at the end of March.
In housing terms, what you suggest is the equivalent of a house being on the market for £300k, the owners being in arrears by 24k (the same % as £160k/£2m) with the lender about to foreclose. You've had a look at the estate agents bumpf and you offer to pay the houseowners arrears of £24k so you would have a chance to buy the house after you've viewed it several times and done a survey and decide a/ you want it and b/ you can agree on a price and c/ someone doesn't come along and offer more.
Sound reasonable?
I think most heads are clear as to what is needed now. DA above has summarised exactly where I ended up also. It isn't what most fans want, but nor are a lot of things associated with the changes in modern football. I'm sure your grandad would turn in his grave if he could come back and spend a Saturday watching BBM ball, VAR, player power, finances etc etc |
I understand your terminology regarding buying the house but we don't know the identity of these potential investors who have come forward since Gauge did his media rounds last week. Maybe they had a grandad who supported the club and they have a desire to invest not only financially but emotionally, who knows. Anyway, we have a lot of shareholders, my opinions count for nothing when it comes to the EGM. Will I support a club owned by these American investors, of course I will but ideally its not the road i would have chosen and I'm very sceptical. | | | |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 09:21 - Mar 2 with 1981 views | DaleiLama |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 09:17 - Mar 2 by TalkingSutty |
I understand your terminology regarding buying the house but we don't know the identity of these potential investors who have come forward since Gauge did his media rounds last week. Maybe they had a grandad who supported the club and they have a desire to invest not only financially but emotionally, who knows. Anyway, we have a lot of shareholders, my opinions count for nothing when it comes to the EGM. Will I support a club owned by these American investors, of course I will but ideally its not the road i would have chosen and I'm very sceptical. |
And your last line is, I'm sure, something most fans feel to a greater or lesser extent. It's also a big challenge for potential new owners. | |
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| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 09:22 - Mar 2 with 1978 views | James1980 |
What happens in the event of liquidation? Would the receiver put the ground up for sale would RMBC grant planning permission for it to be developed? After creditors were paid would shareholders be given the option to put the final dividend to the formation of a phoenix club ? | |
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| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 10:14 - Mar 2 with 1842 views | Kentish_Dale |
Surely anyone wanting to acquire eight acres or so of land somewhere in the area for the purposes of building houses or whatever else would be looking at a less complicated site and process. You'd have to be crazy no? | | | |
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| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 10:33 - Mar 2 with 1772 views | Sandyman |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 07:43 - Mar 2 by TalkingSutty |
Well other investors have come forward, we were told that last week.We've been told a lot of things by numerous people over the last few years but it transpired that most of it wasn't true. Maybe a potential investor might agree to plug that gap in order to buy some time because Gauge has stipulated numerous times that he's not putting anymore into the club after the end of this month. The clubs not going to be liquidated if we take another month to explore all options, nobody is going to let that happen to a asset rich club with potential investors lined up. The council won't sit back and let that happen for a start, irrespective of what some suggest..lose the football and rugby club for the sake of covering a one or two months shortfall, there would be a National outcry for a start. The end of March deadline is set to create panic and the opposite is now needed, clear heads, especially if there are better alternatives to the one that Gauge has presented us with. [Post edited 2 Mar 7:54]
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Last August, an EGM was called where 2 directors were to offer secured loans against the ground to bide time so a buyer could be found. This was agreed by the EGM but not the National League. Since then, they have offered unsecured loans to keep us going
I can't believe any investor would offer an unsecured loan to keep the club going so we could see if our due diligence approved them or not, while the club was hurtling towards liquidation. Nice idea but it hasn't happened, nor would it.
A buyer deemed suitable by the board and due diligence by the Trust has been found. Our own "pesky kids" have looked into them and no red flags are appearing.
It's not a perfect situation, but we've realised that the perfect Dale fan with £millions to spend investor isn't out there. The current offer is the best available. A Utopian vision of RAFC's future is fine, it simply doesn't pay the wages. Money does. [Post edited 2 Mar 10:39]
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| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 10:41 - Mar 2 with 1738 views | Rehsad |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 10:14 - Mar 2 by Kentish_Dale |
Surely anyone wanting to acquire eight acres or so of land somewhere in the area for the purposes of building houses or whatever else would be looking at a less complicated site and process. You'd have to be crazy no? |
No, it goes into the purchaser's land bank to be utilised at a later date. I do think that the location and use may deflate its value on first transaction - but I suspect over time it would become a valuable asset.
To the "Liquidation" part of the question. Liquidation is terminal and trading ceases on announcement of the start of the process. RAFC ceases to exist at the end of the process. There is a greyer area though - and that is getting exception to trade whilst insolvent but with assets. Could RAFC not announce insolvency but announce the sale of assets against a plan to return to solvency - quite likely yes. It's most likely in the past tense though - it could have, but hasn't.
A Phoenix Club? Well, that could actually just be done now - just as AFC United of Manchester formed. Take a look at the lower league tables though - around Tier 8 and below - and note how many 'bottom' clubs in those leagues have "0" points.
I really dislike having a vote to move 90% of the control of the club elsewhere but I do think that we are kidding ourselves if we think that there are other options with 6 days to go. I'd love to be proved wrong bit at the moment I see no alternative - it's about voting to lose my meaningful vote or voting to lose the club (and with it all my vote) and so reluctantly I shall choose the former. | | | |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 10:45 - Mar 2 with 1725 views | judd |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 10:33 - Mar 2 by Sandyman |
Last August, an EGM was called where 2 directors were to offer secured loans against the ground to bide time so a buyer could be found. This was agreed by the EGM but not the National League. Since then, they have offered unsecured loans to keep us going
I can't believe any investor would offer an unsecured loan to keep the club going so we could see if our due diligence approved them or not, while the club was hurtling towards liquidation. Nice idea but it hasn't happened, nor would it.
A buyer deemed suitable by the board and due diligence by the Trust has been found. Our own "pesky kids" have looked into them and no red flags are appearing.
It's not a perfect situation, but we've realised that the perfect Dale fan with £millions to spend investor isn't out there. The current offer is the best available. A Utopian vision of RAFC's future is fine, it simply doesn't pay the wages. Money does. [Post edited 2 Mar 10:39]
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Posted elsewhere but the Trust were given the name of an individual who has not appeared in association with WSH as yet. |  |
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| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 10:59 - Mar 2 with 1684 views | Kentish_Dale |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 10:41 - Mar 2 by Rehsad |
No, it goes into the purchaser's land bank to be utilised at a later date. I do think that the location and use may deflate its value on first transaction - but I suspect over time it would become a valuable asset.
To the "Liquidation" part of the question. Liquidation is terminal and trading ceases on announcement of the start of the process. RAFC ceases to exist at the end of the process. There is a greyer area though - and that is getting exception to trade whilst insolvent but with assets. Could RAFC not announce insolvency but announce the sale of assets against a plan to return to solvency - quite likely yes. It's most likely in the past tense though - it could have, but hasn't.
A Phoenix Club? Well, that could actually just be done now - just as AFC United of Manchester formed. Take a look at the lower league tables though - around Tier 8 and below - and note how many 'bottom' clubs in those leagues have "0" points.
I really dislike having a vote to move 90% of the control of the club elsewhere but I do think that we are kidding ourselves if we think that there are other options with 6 days to go. I'd love to be proved wrong bit at the moment I see no alternative - it's about voting to lose my meaningful vote or voting to lose the club (and with it all my vote) and so reluctantly I shall choose the former. |
"No, it goes into the purchaser's land bank to be utilised at a later date. I do think that the location and use may deflate its value on first transaction - but I suspect over time it would become a valuable asset."
Thanks for your reply but I find that scenario far fetched. | | | |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 11:00 - Mar 2 with 1682 views | TalkingSutty |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 10:33 - Mar 2 by Sandyman |
Last August, an EGM was called where 2 directors were to offer secured loans against the ground to bide time so a buyer could be found. This was agreed by the EGM but not the National League. Since then, they have offered unsecured loans to keep us going
I can't believe any investor would offer an unsecured loan to keep the club going so we could see if our due diligence approved them or not, while the club was hurtling towards liquidation. Nice idea but it hasn't happened, nor would it.
A buyer deemed suitable by the board and due diligence by the Trust has been found. Our own "pesky kids" have looked into them and no red flags are appearing.
It's not a perfect situation, but we've realised that the perfect Dale fan with £millions to spend investor isn't out there. The current offer is the best available. A Utopian vision of RAFC's future is fine, it simply doesn't pay the wages. Money does. [Post edited 2 Mar 10:39]
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How do you know this is the best available offer..because the Chairman told you? Are we sure that the Chairman has introduced the Trust to ALL the credible investors? Those involved with the Trust will know the answer to that and if they haven't then they are obliged to let their members know. I know my posts annoy people but as a shareholder and Trust member we are being given very little information about anything. | | | |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 11:02 - Mar 2 with 1671 views | DaleiLama |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 10:45 - Mar 2 by judd |
Posted elsewhere but the Trust were given the name of an individual who has not appeared in association with WSH as yet. |
Is there a reason, if a letter of intent has been signed, that that name has to remain confidential, and if so, do you know why please (other than the person has requested it)? I'm guessing it is more likely to be a positive factor than negative based on the timing of your post. Ta. | |
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| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 11:09 - Mar 2 with 1636 views | DaleiLama |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 11:00 - Mar 2 by TalkingSutty |
How do you know this is the best available offer..because the Chairman told you? Are we sure that the Chairman has introduced the Trust to ALL the credible investors? Those involved with the Trust will know the answer to that and if they haven't then they are obliged to let their members know. I know my posts annoy people but as a shareholder and Trust member we are being given very little information about anything. |
I'm not sure how anyone could be annoyed by a passionate post, whether they agree or disagree. And if they do, they can put you on ignore anyway. Everyone's opinion is valid. Judd was the first to call out DB and his opinion flew in the face of the majority at the time. Only history will determine 'right and wrong' but any discussion for the betterment of the club can only be right by definition, surely? | |
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| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 11:20 - Mar 2 with 1592 views | Sandyman |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 11:00 - Mar 2 by TalkingSutty |
How do you know this is the best available offer..because the Chairman told you? Are we sure that the Chairman has introduced the Trust to ALL the credible investors? Those involved with the Trust will know the answer to that and if they haven't then they are obliged to let their members know. I know my posts annoy people but as a shareholder and Trust member we are being given very little information about anything. |
How do you know it isn't the best available offer, or whom the Trust has not been introduced to? NDA's prevent a lot of information coming out, whether shareholders / fans like it or not. As expressed above, this isn't a perfect situation, and myself and others have said they will be voting in favour of the resolutions reluctantly, but that is real world thinking, dealing with what is happening, not what we'd like to happen, unfortunately.
There is a Letter Of Intent on the table, which has never happened before. A wholly reliable Trust member has been given some access to information and recommends supporting the resolutions. We're not going to see every iota of detail of the deal. Minor shareholders rarely do, customers (fans) never do in business. | | | |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 11:49 - Mar 2 with 1523 views | Rehsad |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 11:02 - Mar 2 by DaleiLama |
Is there a reason, if a letter of intent has been signed, that that name has to remain confidential, and if so, do you know why please (other than the person has requested it)? I'm guessing it is more likely to be a positive factor than negative based on the timing of your post. Ta. |
It's probably no different than Saltergate - which is now a Barratt development. GB Group bought the land on closure of the ground in 2010. It took then just two years to sell on to Barratt and the first homes were ready for occupancy by the end of 2012/beginning of 2013. | | | |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 12:03 - Mar 2 with 1480 views | 442Dale |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 11:20 - Mar 2 by Sandyman |
How do you know it isn't the best available offer, or whom the Trust has not been introduced to? NDA's prevent a lot of information coming out, whether shareholders / fans like it or not. As expressed above, this isn't a perfect situation, and myself and others have said they will be voting in favour of the resolutions reluctantly, but that is real world thinking, dealing with what is happening, not what we'd like to happen, unfortunately.
There is a Letter Of Intent on the table, which has never happened before. A wholly reliable Trust member has been given some access to information and recommends supporting the resolutions. We're not going to see every iota of detail of the deal. Minor shareholders rarely do, customers (fans) never do in business. |
Agree with a lot of that though we do await the next Trust update - also worth noting Judd’s post earlier. |  |
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| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 12:11 - Mar 2 with 1464 views | TalkingSutty |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 11:20 - Mar 2 by Sandyman |
How do you know it isn't the best available offer, or whom the Trust has not been introduced to? NDA's prevent a lot of information coming out, whether shareholders / fans like it or not. As expressed above, this isn't a perfect situation, and myself and others have said they will be voting in favour of the resolutions reluctantly, but that is real world thinking, dealing with what is happening, not what we'd like to happen, unfortunately.
There is a Letter Of Intent on the table, which has never happened before. A wholly reliable Trust member has been given some access to information and recommends supporting the resolutions. We're not going to see every iota of detail of the deal. Minor shareholders rarely do, customers (fans) never do in business. |
I don't know that it's not the best offer, or whether the Trust has been given proper access to other credible investors in order to verify what the Chairman has stated. Those involved with the Trust will know the answer to that. I take on board that a credible Trust member recommended supporting the resolution but this could still be a fluid situation and there is still time for the landscape to change. The credentials of the Americans look decent but they are playing hard ball with the shareholders and buying a football club for a song, it's in contrast with their own suggestion that they work in partnership with the local community etc. This time next week the picture will be much clearer and we will probably be nearly in the hands of the American investors. At least we will all be able to stop fighting to save our Club then, that will be down to the new owners to do. As fans we can just turn up, buy our season tickets, support the club financially as we see fit and enjoy the football hopefully. [Post edited 2 Mar 12:21]
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| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 13:26 - Mar 2 with 1274 views | wozzrafc |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 12:11 - Mar 2 by TalkingSutty |
I don't know that it's not the best offer, or whether the Trust has been given proper access to other credible investors in order to verify what the Chairman has stated. Those involved with the Trust will know the answer to that. I take on board that a credible Trust member recommended supporting the resolution but this could still be a fluid situation and there is still time for the landscape to change. The credentials of the Americans look decent but they are playing hard ball with the shareholders and buying a football club for a song, it's in contrast with their own suggestion that they work in partnership with the local community etc. This time next week the picture will be much clearer and we will probably be nearly in the hands of the American investors. At least we will all be able to stop fighting to save our Club then, that will be down to the new owners to do. As fans we can just turn up, buy our season tickets, support the club financially as we see fit and enjoy the football hopefully. [Post edited 2 Mar 12:21]
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I think it’s not fair to say it’s the Americans who are playing hardball.
The board have stated the club will go bust and we need to get the cash in fast. They feel this approach will attract investors. If that is what you mean by hard ball it’s the BoD not the investors.
The problem is time there is no money left and we will struggle past March.
I don’t think that situation will change. For me the hard ball part for me was this approach could have been suggested months ago and not when we got to the wire. | | | |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 14:27 - Mar 2 with 1153 views | TalkingSutty |
| Fans' Forum Tomorrow on 13:26 - Mar 2 by wozzrafc |
I think it’s not fair to say it’s the Americans who are playing hardball.
The board have stated the club will go bust and we need to get the cash in fast. They feel this approach will attract investors. If that is what you mean by hard ball it’s the BoD not the investors.
The problem is time there is no money left and we will struggle past March.
I don’t think that situation will change. For me the hard ball part for me was this approach could have been suggested months ago and not when we got to the wire. |
Apologies, i thought it was the Chairman who suggested the shareholder set up in the club was stopping investors investing and the American investment was dependent on the vote at the EGM, they have stipulated it? I didnt know it was a proposal from our BOD. If that's what all the investors seem to be asking for then fair enough, the Trust and Trust Director will no doubt be able to confirm that. Anyway, at least we have one investor who has put themselves forward. [Post edited 2 Mar 14:40]
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