| Lefty or Righty 10:45 - Jun 1 with 8625 views | Pommyhoop |
Bazza or Disco ?
Brighton or Paul Parker ?
Danny or EssexTaxi ?
Take the test . Answer honestly.
I was surprised with my results.
Apparently I am in the left libertarian quadrant not far from Ghandi.  
Do the test on here..
https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
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| Lefty or Righty on 12:26 - Jun 1 with 1978 views | FredManRave |
I-m a righty although very occassionally I-ll use the lefty. |  |
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| Lefty or Righty on 12:29 - Jun 1 with 1973 views | Hunterhoop |
| Lefty or Righty on 11:45 - Jun 1 by FDC |
Incidentally (and in belated reply to Hunter and his insistence that I'm a liberal), if absolutely pressed on it I'd describe my politics as left-libertarian/libertarian-communist (bottom left corner of the quadrant). Which is where most people who do that quiz end up too.
Which could be because the quiz is flawed, or because a lot people are more left-wing and libertarian than they think they are... |
I've never insisted you're a Liberal. I've just said you are more of a Liberal than you think you are, which you now admit.
You're clearly a believer in Social Liberalism (as am I). We differ economically. I'm an economic liberal who believes that govt intervention is necessary in a number of instances to ensure ones citizens are not harmed unnecessarily. Hence why I'm in the middle economically. Economically, you are for more left wing believing in state ownership and control of many sectors.
That's fine. The above explains why you'll vote Labour and I'll vote Lib Dem. But we're both social liberals.
I do agree with your point about how people often plot more left wing and more libertarian than they think they are. I think this is in part due to a flaw in the survey (where they place the "middle"), and also because people believe in social liberalism and govt intervention (to protect them) a damn sight more than the Conservative party, and yet they still vote Conservative.
The issue in the UK, and it's skewed for so many reasons (ageing electorate looking to protect what they have, right wing written media, business lobbying influence, etc) is that far too many people vote Conservative who should vote Lib Dem. It's ridiculous. I genuinely think MOST Conservative voters, when these do these surveys are much closer aligned ideologically with LDs than anyone else. But the media do an excellent job of restricting their visibility and refusing to let this narrative take hold. |  | | |
| Lefty or Righty on 12:33 - Jun 1 with 1962 views | hopphoops |
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| Lefty or Righty on 12:38 - Jun 1 with 1951 views | DaiHo0p |
| Lefty or Righty on 12:33 - Jun 1 by hopphoops |
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Gandhi - though I'm no pacifist. |  | | |
| Lefty or Righty on 12:43 - Jun 1 with 1946 views | Hunterhoop |
| Lefty or Righty on 11:50 - Jun 1 by TacticalR |
An interesting article which dismisses the concept of 'neoliberalism' as having any explanatory power, while making the point that capitalists don't control capitalism:
'The myth goes like this: During the 1980s, Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, two arch right-wing and highly potent politicians, rose to power in their respective nations, the U.S. and the U.K. They thereafter began to institute what was for the vast majority a vile and destructive political and economic scheme: "neoliberalism." Previous to the instalment of this neoliberal scheme, the working class had experienced relative economic improvement, and capitalists seemed happy too (as if we care). But suddenly, and seemingly without cause (although the failure of Keynesianism was apparent in the unprecedented stagflation of the 1970s), these evil political twins, prompted by wizards who formalized the approach, introduced the nefarious ideology of neoliberalism to the world. As cruel and heartless representatives of the capitalist class (which, indeed, they were), they and their supporters caused the Fall from the supposed Paradise of Keynesian reformism that had preceded them. In this mythological version of reality, neoliberalism is understood merely as a set of essentially unwarranted and unusually brutal policies, an ideological and political formation that was hatched in the brains of evil masterminds conspiring in right-wing think tanks, concocted to dupe and punish the vast majority for the benefit of the rich and powerful.
This narrative sounds cartoonish or religious in character, but only because it is — not because I have made it so. It is a typical leftist personification of world-historical forces in lieu of an actual analysis within political economy. It amounts to what I have elsewhere called "political reductionism," which is similar to what Andrew Kliman has referred to as "political determinism." Kliman describes political determinism as such: "They [Keynesians and social democrats] think that the capitalists [and/or their political representatives] control capitalism - not the other way around - so that the system can become something it' s not once different people with different priorities assume control of it." Thus, if only such people as Reagan and Thatcher had never been elected, or better yet, had never been born...'
Brexit, Trumpism, Sanders, and the Decrepit State of Capitalism: Against Political Determinism
http://www.marxisthumanistinitiative.org/economic-crisis/brexit-trumpism-sanders |
WIth all due respect, Tactical, because normally your excerpts are very interesting, i think that's an entirely irrelevant snippet, that misses the point entirely.
Liberals, Social Democrats, Lefties, aren't all morons. Yes, some talk of Neoliberalism and the economic right like their baddies in a evil lair, which is nonsense.
However, most know that's nonsense and that market forces and consumerism drive capitalism, not the other away around. "Capitalists" and Big Business simply manipulate and make money from the system to a far greater degree than should be permitted and can be prevented.
The point I was making about Neoliberalism, Thatcher/Regan, and why it most certainly exists, is this: economic liberalism was adopted to deliver growth and improvement in living standards after stagnation, which it did,, but deregulation, open markets, globalisation (all which gathered pace through the 90s and into the 00s until the crash), did so with a fundamental tenant of economic liberalism missing (that which the social liberals hold most dear) - free markets except where it causes serous harm, at which point govt intervention is required.
Thatcher, with her whole "their is no such thing as community" rhetoric and Reagan, willingly removed the conscience that goes with economic liberalism, and is needed to go with it for it to work for the majority not the minority. They set the wheels in motion to allow the "Capitalists" and Big Business to manipulate an economically liberal, globalised economy for their gain, more so (but instead of) for the gain of the citizens in country, and absolutely at the expense of certain minority groups of citizens in certain countries (often blue collar workers). They did so because they weren't Social Liberals and didn't see the wider social implications of this. They may have possibly done it because they genuinely didn't care about all citizens.
Either way, Neoliberalism was a reflection of western governments, from Thatcher and Reagan to Blair and Bush, being asleep at the wheel. Broadly the west had strong growth, so why worry about the margins? It's come back to haunt them. Govt's didn't intervene when they really should have. However, In my view, this doesn't mean economic liberalism is flawed....it delivered widespread growth, it was the application of it, in a form now referred to as neoliberalism which was the flaw. As long as the conscience is applied and social liberals have a seat at the table of govt, it will work. And it will work far better for far more people than socialism or Marxism. | | | |
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| Lefty or Righty on 13:09 - Jun 1 with 1904 views | FDC |
| Lefty or Righty on 12:29 - Jun 1 by Hunterhoop |
I've never insisted you're a Liberal. I've just said you are more of a Liberal than you think you are, which you now admit.
You're clearly a believer in Social Liberalism (as am I). We differ economically. I'm an economic liberal who believes that govt intervention is necessary in a number of instances to ensure ones citizens are not harmed unnecessarily. Hence why I'm in the middle economically. Economically, you are for more left wing believing in state ownership and control of many sectors.
That's fine. The above explains why you'll vote Labour and I'll vote Lib Dem. But we're both social liberals.
I do agree with your point about how people often plot more left wing and more libertarian than they think they are. I think this is in part due to a flaw in the survey (where they place the "middle"), and also because people believe in social liberalism and govt intervention (to protect them) a damn sight more than the Conservative party, and yet they still vote Conservative.
The issue in the UK, and it's skewed for so many reasons (ageing electorate looking to protect what they have, right wing written media, business lobbying influence, etc) is that far too many people vote Conservative who should vote Lib Dem. It's ridiculous. I genuinely think MOST Conservative voters, when these do these surveys are much closer aligned ideologically with LDs than anyone else. But the media do an excellent job of restricting their visibility and refusing to let this narrative take hold. |
"which you now admit"
Missed that bit?
You seem to be on a mission to enlighten everyone, revealing that they are all liberals. Are you conflating libertarianism with liberalism?
If you tell me to go and read On Liberty then we can no longer be friends, because a) it's patronising, b) I have, and c) it's crap. [Post edited 1 Jun 2017 13:15]
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| Lefty or Righty on 13:27 - Jun 1 with 1864 views | Metallica_Hoop |
There should have been more on immigration, nation states and the military I'd have been more righty then. |  |
| Beer and Beef has made us what we are - The Prince Regent |
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| Lefty or Righty on 13:27 - Jun 1 with 1864 views | Hunterhoop |
| Lefty or Righty on 13:09 - Jun 1 by FDC |
"which you now admit"
Missed that bit?
You seem to be on a mission to enlighten everyone, revealing that they are all liberals. Are you conflating libertarianism with liberalism?
If you tell me to go and read On Liberty then we can no longer be friends, because a) it's patronising, b) I have, and c) it's crap. [Post edited 1 Jun 2017 13:15]
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I suppose I am on a bit of a mission (whenever these threads emerge on LFW) to highlight that more people are liberals than think they are. So what? Not sure what the problem is here? Everyone is on a mission to convert/defence/attach others political viewpoint as far as I can see! I promise I won't ask anyone to read any books!
You admitted that you were "left/libertarianism". Libertarianism, from a social perspective, which this survey is measuring and referring to (ie. not Libertarianism as an economic and social philosophy), and hence what I thought you were referring to, is very similar to social liberalism. If anything the latter has more of a direct social conscience.
If you meant "left-libertarianism" as it's own distinct ideology encompassing an philosophy on economics, rather than just social themes (as this survey refers), then fine, I accept that's different from liberalism (social or economical).
Personally, I'm not sure of the validity of left-libertarianism. I think it's a bit of an oxymoron best summed up by approach to "the state". Either you want personal automony or state control over your life and decisions. Left-Libertarians tend to side on the personal autonomy side, veering close to anarchists. Perhaps that is you. But it's certainly not Corbyn or McDonnell!!
But we'll leave it there. Being a "slave to wages", I need to get back to work.  | | | |
| Lefty or Righty on 13:36 - Jun 1 with 1840 views | PunteR |
What's happened to the monster raving loony party..? Is that left or right? |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Lefty or Righty on 13:44 - Jun 1 with 1820 views | FDC |
| Lefty or Righty on 13:36 - Jun 1 by PunteR |
What's happened to the monster raving loony party..? Is that left or right? |
They were on Daily Politics yesterday, pretty decent I thought. | | | |
| Lefty or Righty on 13:54 - Jun 1 with 1805 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Lefty or Righty on 12:18 - Jun 1 by Hunterhoop |
Economic Liberalism and Neoliberalism are still very different things though. That's my issue.
You're deliberately, or unintentionally trying to lump Thatcher in with Liberalism when she wasn't Liberal in any sense, her economic approach gave birth to Neoliberalism. She would sit, on this map, towards the top right.
Even classic economic liberalism still held a belief that govt intervention was required to a certain degree to ensure harm wasn't brought. That's a key difference with Thatcher and Neoliberalism.
Equally, a huge part of economic liberalism is about free markets and freedom of movement, ie....if you believe in "Remain", you are, to a degree, an economic liberal.
I'm not surprised where Steve sits, I think it's right. He's clearly never believed in economic liberalism (absolutely reasonable stance), but does believe in social liberalism (libertarianism). He doesn't get as far as socialism/Marxism economically. At present, whether he likes it or not, he's a "liberal" more than he's a "Tory" or a "Corbynista". |
Yes, I am absolutely deliberately doing it, to make a point to Steve about his poison.
I know the difference thanks. I consider myself a liberal!
I was having a cheap dig, and didn't need a lecture about 19th century philosophers in response. |  | | |
| Lefty or Righty on 13:58 - Jun 1 with 1796 views | Toast_R |
The Left - obsessed with diversity as long as it's not diversity of opinion |  | | |
| Lefty or Righty on 14:00 - Jun 1 with 1793 views | DannytheR |
I like to think that wherever we sit on the political spectrum, however divided and antagonistic our deepest rooted philosophies or senses of cultural identity, even when we seem just a step away from outright civil war, we can all unite around hating the LibDems. [Post edited 1 Jun 2017 14:01]
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| Lefty or Righty on 14:04 - Jun 1 with 1784 views | Hunterhoop |
| Lefty or Righty on 14:00 - Jun 1 by DannytheR |
I like to think that wherever we sit on the political spectrum, however divided and antagonistic our deepest rooted philosophies or senses of cultural identity, even when we seem just a step away from outright civil war, we can all unite around hating the LibDems. [Post edited 1 Jun 2017 14:01]
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That made me laugh. | | | |
| Lefty or Righty (n/t) on 14:20 - Jun 1 with 1753 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
[Post edited 1 Jun 2017 14:36]
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| Lefty or Righty on 14:34 - Jun 1 with 1724 views | Dorse |
Just call me Mahatma. |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| Lefty or Righty on 14:40 - Jun 1 with 1701 views | SimonJames |
A few loaded questions in there that made me have to choose Disagree rather than Agree:
So according to the following, I have to move to Wales and grow my own alfalfa sprouts:
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| 100% of people who drink water will die. |
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| Lefty or Righty on 15:00 - Jun 1 with 1668 views | Cliff |
Please to say I appear to be the exact opposite of Thatcher |  | | |
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