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Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 19:17 - Jun 26 by londonlisa2001
The amount received by Wales from the UK government is £15bn ish.
The deficit between tax raised and public spending was estimated by Cardiff University as £13bn. When you add in the taxes that are not apportioned correctly and make cuts on stuff like defence (assuming Wales would not opt in to Trident for example) the deficit could be reduced to about £6bn - £7bn.
That doesn’t make any allowance for any jobs that may move as they support the UK.
There are other possibilities - Wales exports electricity for example, but most infrastructure is English owned.
Wales’ way forward would be via a genuinely different economic focus on green energy, tech etc. But it would be difficult and the people running Wales at the moment are not of the right people to drive it forward. The silly tweet stuff from someone who thinks £6bn solves the problem is utterly stupid and puts thinking people off.
[Post edited 26 Jun 2020 19:33]
Hi Lisa,
By 'most of the infrastructure is English owned' I presume you mean that English taxpayers pay most of the cost because they make up about 85% of the population so pay most of the tax that pays for the infrastructure.
So Wales only 'owns' 5% of the DVLA for example. But Wales also 'owns' 5% of all the infrastructure in England because we paid 5% of the cost of all that infrastructure (according to the way Westminster allocates costs to the Nations and regions). So there'd be a sort of swap type arrangement. We'd keep DVLA, they'd keep whatever.
The jobs situation is similar. About 85% of the work done at DVLA is on behalf of England. But similarly 5% of all the Civil Servants that work in England do work on behalf of Wales. So again there'd be a swap kind of situation (over time). It couldn't all happen overnight.
As regards the value of Welsh water, it's not going to bridge the deficit gap that's for certain. But in years to come (global warming and all that) who knows how valuable it may become.
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Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 18:14 - Jun 27 with 2609 views
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 17:56 - Jun 27 by johnlangy
Hi Lisa,
By 'most of the infrastructure is English owned' I presume you mean that English taxpayers pay most of the cost because they make up about 85% of the population so pay most of the tax that pays for the infrastructure.
So Wales only 'owns' 5% of the DVLA for example. But Wales also 'owns' 5% of all the infrastructure in England because we paid 5% of the cost of all that infrastructure (according to the way Westminster allocates costs to the Nations and regions). So there'd be a sort of swap type arrangement. We'd keep DVLA, they'd keep whatever.
The jobs situation is similar. About 85% of the work done at DVLA is on behalf of England. But similarly 5% of all the Civil Servants that work in England do work on behalf of Wales. So again there'd be a swap kind of situation (over time). It couldn't all happen overnight.
As regards the value of Welsh water, it's not going to bridge the deficit gap that's for certain. But in years to come (global warming and all that) who knows how valuable it may become.
Hi,
No - I meant that the electricity generation infrastructure (the power stations etc) are owned by companies that are non Welsh.
So it’s not quite as easy as saying ‘Wales exports electricity’ and assuming the value of that would find its way to Wales. Similar type of thing as Amazon in Wales not providing a benefit to the Welsh economy (it does obviously with employment, and VAT, but corporation taxes etc are all taken elsewhere). If a company generating electricity in Wales was nationally owned in Wales, then that would be different (a la Welsh Water). But the power generation companies are not nationalised, and are also not even companies with a Welsh headquarters. If you wanted to nationalise the industry, that would cost a lot of money up front.
I agree re public sector jobs.
I agree to an extent about water - it is likely to become more valuable. But if it became a higher price, different ways of doing it would be used instead (there’s a lot of sea water all round England that could be used instead - it’s not a landlocked country which would give Wales more negotiating power).
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Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 18:59 - Jun 27 with 2595 views
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 16:48 - Jun 27 by Kilkennyjack
See Johns post above and you will have your answer.
A Wales as ‘Wales-shire’ or ‘Greater England’ model will always be hand out dependent. A Wales as a modern European democracy within Europe will have all the levers not to be hand out dependent.
Its the current arrangements - that you want to perpetuate - which puts Wales in a model that cannot work.
Getting rid of Trident will save £205 billion alone, so Wales saving will be £10 billion ?
Wales already produces twice as much energy as it uses. Wales generated an estimated 30.2 TWh of electricity in 2018, while consuming approximately 14.9 TWh(1). This means that Wales generates twice as much electricity as it consumes and is a net exporter of electricity to England, Ireland and the wider European electricity network. The equivalent of 48% of Wales' electricity consumption was met from renewable sources in 2017. Like water, power is quite important.
Thats very simplistic to scrap our nuclear deterrent and absorb the cost into your new Welsh budget.
Based on an assumption that the majority of us wish to scrap our nuclear weapons ( Although I'm sure that we all wish they'd never been invented)
if nuclear weapons are about and in the hands of rogue countries and nutters which of course they are I personally want the best and biggest nuclear weapons available as some sort of protection and I'm sure that most people probably do also given the circumstances as described.
You see the problem with romantic fantasists is that they never get deterred by knowing that they are in a minority as demonstrated over and over again at the ballot box and they tend to just carry on in their own little fantasy world creating imaginary scenarios in their own little heads that bear no relation to reality.
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Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 19:04 - Jun 27 with 2585 views
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 18:59 - Jun 27 by BarrySwan
Thats very simplistic to scrap our nuclear deterrent and absorb the cost into your new Welsh budget.
Based on an assumption that the majority of us wish to scrap our nuclear weapons ( Although I'm sure that we all wish they'd never been invented)
if nuclear weapons are about and in the hands of rogue countries and nutters which of course they are I personally want the best and biggest nuclear weapons available as some sort of protection and I'm sure that most people probably do also given the circumstances as described.
You see the problem with romantic fantasists is that they never get deterred by knowing that they are in a minority as demonstrated over and over again at the ballot box and they tend to just carry on in their own little fantasy world creating imaginary scenarios in their own little heads that bear no relation to reality.
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 18:59 - Jun 27 by BarrySwan
Thats very simplistic to scrap our nuclear deterrent and absorb the cost into your new Welsh budget.
Based on an assumption that the majority of us wish to scrap our nuclear weapons ( Although I'm sure that we all wish they'd never been invented)
if nuclear weapons are about and in the hands of rogue countries and nutters which of course they are I personally want the best and biggest nuclear weapons available as some sort of protection and I'm sure that most people probably do also given the circumstances as described.
You see the problem with romantic fantasists is that they never get deterred by knowing that they are in a minority as demonstrated over and over again at the ballot box and they tend to just carry on in their own little fantasy world creating imaginary scenarios in their own little heads that bear no relation to reality.
Now i think about it you are right ....
I mean when you think about all the European nations who dont have (or pay for) nuclear weapons, and how they are always being attacked by evil regimes who do have nuclear arms ... must happen all the time ... right ?
Wrong.
None of the following have nuclear weapons .... Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Ireland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Malta, Slovakia, Turkey, Holland, Luxembourg, Belgium, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, Greece, Croatia, Serbia, etc etc
I have no idea how they all stay so safe for so long, and spend their money on their real priorities.
The UK is barking.
Beware of the Risen People
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Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 23:20 - Jun 27 with 2533 views
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 19:57 - Jun 27 by Kilkennyjack
Now i think about it you are right ....
I mean when you think about all the European nations who dont have (or pay for) nuclear weapons, and how they are always being attacked by evil regimes who do have nuclear arms ... must happen all the time ... right ?
Wrong.
None of the following have nuclear weapons .... Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Ireland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Malta, Slovakia, Turkey, Holland, Luxembourg, Belgium, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, Greece, Croatia, Serbia, etc etc
I have no idea how they all stay so safe for so long, and spend their money on their real priorities.
The UK is barking.
That's great news, that's put my mind at rest thankfully
Plaid Cymru's defence policy in an independent Wales is presumably a guarantee against nasty people using nuclear weapons against us, that, is very reassuring to be honest.
I suppose that they can always threaten a rogue state or terrorists with access to nuclear weapons with retaliation from the newly formed Wales defence force, no doubt armed with broom handles and kitted out in ill fitting army and navy castoffs complete with dodgy taches just like their predecessors who looked so impressive in that old grainy tv footage that's shown every time someone mentions an investiture.
[Post edited 27 Jun 2020 23:21]
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Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 23:36 - Jun 27 with 2523 views
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 19:57 - Jun 27 by Kilkennyjack
Now i think about it you are right ....
I mean when you think about all the European nations who dont have (or pay for) nuclear weapons, and how they are always being attacked by evil regimes who do have nuclear arms ... must happen all the time ... right ?
Wrong.
None of the following have nuclear weapons .... Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Ireland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Malta, Slovakia, Turkey, Holland, Luxembourg, Belgium, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, Greece, Croatia, Serbia, etc etc
I have no idea how they all stay so safe for so long, and spend their money on their real priorities.
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 00:18 - Jun 28 by raynor94
Fair play that did make me smile, Kilks has had a mare again
You cant have your own facts, see ...
Its a fact ..... almost all European counties do not have nuclear weapons Its a fact ..... that these European counties have never been attacked by a nuclear state Its a fact ...... that indy wales would be exactly the same Its a fact ....... that the real threats are now non nuclear, see London Bridge, Manchester, Reading etc Its a fact ....... that indy wales might chose to be part of a nuclear NATO if it wanted Its a fact ........ that UK could find better use for £205 billion than nuclear weapons (think NHS)
Now i know you are a bit twp ...and you are having a mare on this thread .... but even you can see the above logic shirley ? Or has the Daily Fail and BBC combo replaced your brains with a union jack ?
Educate yourself. Dont be a yoon.
Beware of the Risen People
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Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 23:25 - Jun 29 with 2333 views
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 19:57 - Jun 27 by Kilkennyjack
Now i think about it you are right ....
I mean when you think about all the European nations who dont have (or pay for) nuclear weapons, and how they are always being attacked by evil regimes who do have nuclear arms ... must happen all the time ... right ?
Wrong.
None of the following have nuclear weapons .... Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Ireland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Malta, Slovakia, Turkey, Holland, Luxembourg, Belgium, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, Greece, Croatia, Serbia, etc etc
I have no idea how they all stay so safe for so long, and spend their money on their real priorities.
The UK is barking.
Say the uk scrapped trident. Do you think those countries mentioned would be happy that France would be the only nuclear capable nation? You think France would be happy with it? Paints a massive target on la France if they’re the only country in Europe with nuclear weapons. I know Germany would be very unhappy about it.
Boycott Shampoo......Demand Real Poo!!!
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Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 19:18 - Jun 30 with 2184 views
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 18:53 - Jun 30 by Vincent_Vega
Say the uk scrapped trident. Do you think those countries mentioned would be happy that France would be the only nuclear capable nation? You think France would be happy with it? Paints a massive target on la France if they’re the only country in Europe with nuclear weapons. I know Germany would be very unhappy about it.
The UK should scrap Trident because its the right thing to do.
Teachers, nurses, police and conventional forces are much better value for money.
Having a nuclear weapon did not prevent modern conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. Having a nuclear weapon did not stop the dreadful events we have seen on UK streets.
Whats the point ? 🤷â€â™‚ï¸ You cant ever use it cos millions could die as a result.
Into a museum they should go.
Beware of the Risen People
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Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 09:31 - Jul 1 with 2141 views
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 19:57 - Jun 27 by Kilkennyjack
Now i think about it you are right ....
I mean when you think about all the European nations who dont have (or pay for) nuclear weapons, and how they are always being attacked by evil regimes who do have nuclear arms ... must happen all the time ... right ?
Wrong.
None of the following have nuclear weapons .... Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Ireland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Malta, Slovakia, Turkey, Holland, Luxembourg, Belgium, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, Greece, Croatia, Serbia, etc etc
I have no idea how they all stay so safe for so long, and spend their money on their real priorities.
The UK is barking.
Possibly most of them are NATO members and are protected by NATO.
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 19:18 - Jun 30 by Kilkennyjack
The UK should scrap Trident because its the right thing to do.
Teachers, nurses, police and conventional forces are much better value for money.
Having a nuclear weapon did not prevent modern conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. Having a nuclear weapon did not stop the dreadful events we have seen on UK streets.
Whats the point ? 🤷â€â™‚ï¸ You cant ever use it cos millions could die as a result.
Into a museum they should go.
Yes in a utopian society all nukes would be decommissioned, but we’re not in a social utopia are we?
I would be happy for all nukes to go. Terrible weapons and should the worst happen I’d probably stand outside to take the blast as there’s no point in living in the aftermath.
However the probability of a naughty nation developing WMD’s to use on the west increases if the west and Russia disarms. Should that happen you can’t just go to the nuclear missile shop. It takes years to manufacture such weapons and by then, we’d be ash.
Put it this way, my Apple Watch is 50meters waterproof. I will never dive to 50meters, but it’s good to know it’s there.
Boycott Shampoo......Demand Real Poo!!!
1
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 13:25 - Jul 1 with 2101 views
The biggest problem with Kilks versions of the future is, they all seem to be with nationalised industries at the heart of Wales, nationalised water and electricity, think about it. How do we buy the infrastrcuture and/or build new infrastructure to cope?
Then consider our applicatioin to join the EU, they have rules against state aid and would they even consider our joining if we were a full on nationalised state?
Our economy would have to be in a certain position too but if we were to invest heavily we would have had to borrow heavily also, we might have a massive deficit which would surely see our joining blocked?
I also take issue with the idea that rich EU countries help the poor countries. Yes there have been loans/bailouts but recently Germany railed against more help and just look at what the EU did to Greece and other Southern European countries have been suffering too. The richer countries have always protected themselves. Germany's economy isn't exposed, in fact it gains from all the help it's given.
Ebo, I take your point about the Bojo promises not coming to Wales but again, is devolution the problem not the cure? When Bojo did promise Wales money, Drakeford turned it down if it came with a condition on where it was spent. So if Bojo planned on saying Wales would get it's 5% of the promised money but thought Drakeford would turn it down for the same reason, maybe he'd just say don't bother offering? Maybe they had talks (the Senedd and Bojo) and that's already happened? We know there's one big thing Bojo and Trump have in common, they are narcissists and love to be loved. maybe Bojo didn't like Drakers turning down the first offer so is just ignoring the Senedd?
All things are possible, specially when you're dealing with a knee jerk reaction politician like Bojo.
I see Drakeford is telling people they cannot cross the border into England to enjoy the greater freedom allowed there. Meanwhile the welsh Assembly owned airport allows Ryanair flights to take off which are clearly travelling more than his 5 mile, rule, regulation, law or whatever he calls it. Does he really believe people who live near the border are not going to have a drink in a beer garden.
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 08:42 - Jul 4 by felixstowe_jack
I see Drakeford is telling people they cannot cross the border into England to enjoy the greater freedom allowed there. Meanwhile the welsh Assembly owned airport allows Ryanair flights to take off which are clearly travelling more than his 5 mile, rule, regulation, law or whatever he calls it. Does he really believe people who live near the border are not going to have a drink in a beer garden.
It’s the commie mentality within him don’t forget he is on the corbynista wing of labour.
This control is very attractive to him, imagine if he had more powers? I don’t want to
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Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 10:36 - Jul 4 with 1956 views
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 09:59 - Jul 1 by Vincent_Vega
Yes in a utopian society all nukes would be decommissioned, but we’re not in a social utopia are we?
I would be happy for all nukes to go. Terrible weapons and should the worst happen I’d probably stand outside to take the blast as there’s no point in living in the aftermath.
However the probability of a naughty nation developing WMD’s to use on the west increases if the west and Russia disarms. Should that happen you can’t just go to the nuclear missile shop. It takes years to manufacture such weapons and by then, we’d be ash.
Put it this way, my Apple Watch is 50meters waterproof. I will never dive to 50meters, but it’s good to know it’s there.
You never know - it may come in handy when you’re 50m down and need to check on the football scores (assuming you can get a signal). Failing that, at least you’ll know the exact time of your death...
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Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 10:55 - Jul 4 with 1946 views
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 08:42 - Jul 4 by felixstowe_jack
I see Drakeford is telling people they cannot cross the border into England to enjoy the greater freedom allowed there. Meanwhile the welsh Assembly owned airport allows Ryanair flights to take off which are clearly travelling more than his 5 mile, rule, regulation, law or whatever he calls it. Does he really believe people who live near the border are not going to have a drink in a beer garden.
Does anyone listen to Drakeford?
People have been travelling more than 5 miles, people are going to England in caravans, people will go to Bristol airport to go on holiday, people are sensibly sitting in their gardens with friends having a drink, tradesmen are going into peoples houses for non emergency work, people are booking holidays in England because they are not clear what’s happening in Wales are just some examples of what’s happening in the real world.
Drakeford has no worries about the real world a civil servant with a decent pension to look forward to when we finally are rid of the dithering idiot.
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Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 11:48 - Jul 4 with 1928 views
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 21:01 - Jun 28 by Kilkennyjack
You cant have your own facts, see ...
Its a fact ..... almost all European counties do not have nuclear weapons Its a fact ..... that these European counties have never been attacked by a nuclear state Its a fact ...... that indy wales would be exactly the same Its a fact ....... that the real threats are now non nuclear, see London Bridge, Manchester, Reading etc Its a fact ....... that indy wales might chose to be part of a nuclear NATO if it wanted Its a fact ........ that UK could find better use for £205 billion than nuclear weapons (think NHS)
Now i know you are a bit twp ...and you are having a mare on this thread .... but even you can see the above logic shirley ? Or has the Daily Fail and BBC combo replaced your brains with a union jack ?
Educate yourself. Dont be a yoon.
Tell that to the Ukrainian and the Crimea which have both been invaded by Russia in the last few years.
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 18:53 - Jun 30 by Vincent_Vega
Say the uk scrapped trident. Do you think those countries mentioned would be happy that France would be the only nuclear capable nation? You think France would be happy with it? Paints a massive target on la France if they’re the only country in Europe with nuclear weapons. I know Germany would be very unhappy about it.
Do you honestly think France is less of a target because we have nukes too? I don't think it works that way. Ourselves and France could ditch nukes and agree to pay a percentage to the USA for, lets call it protection, we would still be targets for the lunatics.
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 12:14 - Jul 4 by Catullus
Do you honestly think France is less of a target because we have nukes too? I don't think it works that way. Ourselves and France could ditch nukes and agree to pay a percentage to the USA for, lets call it protection, we would still be targets for the lunatics.
I was referring to another nuclear capable nation say the ruskies (could be anyone of the worlds nuclear club)for example. Think about it now. Your a nuclear nation wanting to kick off, now nuking pretty much guarantees MAD (mutually assured destruction) so if you launch you want to knock out as many targets that have the capability to nuke you before they do. With that in mind would you rather just really on one nation in Europe or 2. And the protection money idea, if the ruskies knocked out the USA (unlikely I know but it’s all hypothetical) that’s no retaliatory strike capability for the west thus making nuclear war MORE likely to happen if The uk or France gave up their nukes not less.
But what do I know I’m just a moron on PS with too much time on his hands
Boycott Shampoo......Demand Real Poo!!!
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Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 17:06 - Jul 4 with 1869 views
Scrap the ineffective Senedd-Welsh Assembly on 15:30 - Jul 4 by Vincent_Vega
I was referring to another nuclear capable nation say the ruskies (could be anyone of the worlds nuclear club)for example. Think about it now. Your a nuclear nation wanting to kick off, now nuking pretty much guarantees MAD (mutually assured destruction) so if you launch you want to knock out as many targets that have the capability to nuke you before they do. With that in mind would you rather just really on one nation in Europe or 2. And the protection money idea, if the ruskies knocked out the USA (unlikely I know but it’s all hypothetical) that’s no retaliatory strike capability for the west thus making nuclear war MORE likely to happen if The uk or France gave up their nukes not less.
But what do I know I’m just a moron on PS with too much time on his hands
Again, I don't think it'll work that way. If the Russian attacked the USA then MAD is guaranteed anyway. As long as Europe and the USA stand together in NATO the Russians won't nuke us.
NATO is the key, not our individual ownership of nukes. More important than us having our own nukes is having stable government across Europe and the USA. Trump and the EU are more of a concern to me than keeping our own nukes.
If any rogue nation nuked the UK (with enough force to cripple us) then other Euro countries would strike back too because the fallout would hit them badly. That's the problem with nukes, it's not surgical, it's scatter gun, the target and anything near by get hit too. Again, if tht happened we have NATO too.
Having enough firepower (between us) to literally destroy the planet a few times over is mad in itself, sanity has to start creping in somewhere. We have so much damage to repair already, is spending more money on something that will never be used (and if it is used nothing matters anyway) really a great idea?
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