| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 22:32 - Apr 19 with 1836 views | NotLoyal |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 13:51 - Apr 19 by Sirjohnalot |
Hi. NL, if you look at my post I said ‘he threatened to pervert the course of justice’ which is exactly
what he did.
If he is not sacked every single time he is in a trial and he says the defendant had done something which is disputed, it will be suggested to him that he is simply making it up. If and when he denies it this clip will be played to him. He will be fatal to any prosecution case going forward if his evidence is pivotal.
Of course it’s true that the whole clip needs to be watched and put into context but had the other guy done anything wrong, surely he’d have said that rather than ‘I’ll make it up, who will they believe ?’
That would be the basis of every speech that Counsel would make to every jury in any case he’s involved in. All you need is an element of doubt, ladies and gentlemen.......’I will make it up, who are they going to believe ? Well, do you believe him ? ‘ |
Thanks for your reply.
I was unsure as to what justice he threatened to pervert as my assumption was there needed to be an offence to actually pervert, which at that point there wasn't. As you stated you did say threaten, which is what he did. Granted. However after reflection I suppose if he did make something up, say a public order offence and then attempted to fabricate evidence in his statement the moment he signed it as the truth he is committing the act., or even a criminal attempt, going more than merely preparatory to achieve his aim of perverting the course of justice.
My interest stems from the first 6 years after leaving the services I trained as a paralegal, diploma etc so I spent many hours in a variety of northern ireland police stations, on the alleged right side. Also the usual office work, be that prepping bundles for criminal and civil work. Thank you again for your response. |  |
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| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 22:42 - Apr 19 with 1805 views | NotLoyal |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 13:10 - Apr 19 by Joe_bradshaw |
He threatened to pervert justice by making a false allegation of lawbreaking. That isn’t the same as carrying the threat out but, coming from an officer of the law to a member of the public is totally unacceptable. He should be disciplined for this and any mitigating circumstances such as what happened beforehand should be taken into account. Let justice take its course. |
Problem is as has been discussed threatening is not an offence, my point was he wasn't perverting the course of justice. And he wasn't.
That aside, yes absolutely he should be disciplined, not sacked, offered training or guidance and perhaps he will be a better copper for it. My sympathies are irrelevant, but he shouldn't be treated any differently if he does get disciplined, even though he will be. We expect a lot from the police and this heat of the moment comment highlights just how much we expect, can't put a foot wrong. Is it 35 years they do now before retirement? Fck me, imagine that hanging over your head every day, one false move and your down the road or subjected to discipline for doing what 99% of the public haven't got the bottle or intelligence to think about let alone do. | |
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| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 22:55 - Apr 19 with 1783 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 22:42 - Apr 19 by NotLoyal |
Problem is as has been discussed threatening is not an offence, my point was he wasn't perverting the course of justice. And he wasn't.
That aside, yes absolutely he should be disciplined, not sacked, offered training or guidance and perhaps he will be a better copper for it. My sympathies are irrelevant, but he shouldn't be treated any differently if he does get disciplined, even though he will be. We expect a lot from the police and this heat of the moment comment highlights just how much we expect, can't put a foot wrong. Is it 35 years they do now before retirement? Fck me, imagine that hanging over your head every day, one false move and your down the road or subjected to discipline for doing what 99% of the public haven't got the bottle or intelligence to think about let alone do. |
Yep, that’s spot on, at the top of every statement there’s a paragraph along the lines of ‘if you write anything in this statement that is untrue or knowingly false, you commit an offence’, which is what he threatened to do.
He’ll be suspended, and go before a disciplinary panel, the whole footage will need to be looked at to see the lead up to it, not just the part that we’ve seen.
Doing my job for 15 years, I’ve come across half a dozen dodgy coppers, they were hated by their colleagues, one of whom was so bad, I called three officers as defence witnesses to give evidence against him.
If this chap has lost his temper against some little scroat, I feel really sorry for him but the ‘good old days’ where police could run amok resulted in miscarriages of justice like the Birmingham 6, Guildford 4, Cardiff 3, Craig and Bentley. Can never go back to those days.
Hope you have a lovely evening and keep safe |  | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 08:53 - Apr 20 with 1675 views | Jinxy |
The police officer, a person in a position of authority, probably effected a desired outcome (from his perspective) from the threat, not the act, of perverting the course of justice. So the threat changed the course of events (even if well intentioned) - not a million miles away from an act of doing so, in my view. At some point down the line maybe his defence rep would lean towards misconduct vs gross misconduct?
His line managers would probably be concerned that he was compelled to act in such a way during these days of smart phone videoing, social media and so on, as well as losing his rag far too easily (even given these strange times). Perhaps his kind would have done far worse during the incident, if unequivocal evidence gathering were not to be so readily available. |  | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 09:09 - Apr 20 with 1660 views | Best_loser |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 08:53 - Apr 20 by Jinxy |
The police officer, a person in a position of authority, probably effected a desired outcome (from his perspective) from the threat, not the act, of perverting the course of justice. So the threat changed the course of events (even if well intentioned) - not a million miles away from an act of doing so, in my view. At some point down the line maybe his defence rep would lean towards misconduct vs gross misconduct?
His line managers would probably be concerned that he was compelled to act in such a way during these days of smart phone videoing, social media and so on, as well as losing his rag far too easily (even given these strange times). Perhaps his kind would have done far worse during the incident, if unequivocal evidence gathering were not to be so readily available. |
At the very least he should be transferred to a desk job
He can't be dealing with the general public ever again
He is exactly the wrong kind of person for that |  | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 09:14 - Apr 20 with 1654 views | dickythorpe |
Gee, none of us have had a bad day in work......where's all this "understanding" stress and "support" mental issues gone? |  | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 10:25 - Apr 20 with 1612 views | Witneyjack |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 17:39 - Apr 19 by londonlisa2001 |
Because when he said to the police officer ‘what have I done’ the reply was ‘I’ll make something up’.
If he had done something the police officer would have said what it was.
And in making the official apology the Lancashire Police would have let it slip out that the bloke was suspected of doing something if he had been. As happens in all cases where the police are accused of something - it’s leaked to the local press.
It actually doesn’t matter if he did anything anyway. The police officer should be sacked for the words ‘who do you think they’ll believe’. |
I try not to get involved in these posts for obvious reasons. Your last sentence is astonishing really. British justice is based on 'innocence until proven guilty' and yet you are assuming guilt based on a short video clip.
I don't know the full circumstances but agree he hasn't covered himself in glory. However , suggesting he should be sacked based on that short clip is ridiculous and goes against the whole ethos of our legal system.
Let there be a full investigation, including speaking to all witnesses and then the officer will be dealt with accordingly.
Everybody is entitled to a fair investigation, including Police Officers.
As for the statement that all the officer's cases would be scrutinised,that is not necessarily true. On each case file , all officers involved have to declare any disciplinary or criminal findings of guilt against them. So if following an enquiry into this incident he has no case to answer, then he would have no guilty imcidents to declare.
I'm not defending (or attacking) this officer but am defending his entitlement to a full and fair hearing and more importantly, defending our Criminal Justice system. |  | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 10:35 - Apr 20 with 1604 views | JackSomething |
I tend to think that if we were all put in a confrontational situation and didn't know we were being filmed, a large proportion of us would react in a way that we'd be ashamed of after the fact. The police are of course expected to behave above reproach in those situations and are trained to do so. I tip my hat to them as I couldn't do it.
Having said that, wouldn't the officer have had a bodycam filming all this? If so, the fact that the force have formally apologised to the person involved would surely suggest that the officer was very much in the wrong? Otherwise the video would have been leaked by now, just as the video of a pissed up Dean Saunders was leaked. |  |
| You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help. |
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| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 11:28 - Apr 20 with 1564 views | Highjack |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 10:25 - Apr 20 by Witneyjack |
I try not to get involved in these posts for obvious reasons. Your last sentence is astonishing really. British justice is based on 'innocence until proven guilty' and yet you are assuming guilt based on a short video clip.
I don't know the full circumstances but agree he hasn't covered himself in glory. However , suggesting he should be sacked based on that short clip is ridiculous and goes against the whole ethos of our legal system.
Let there be a full investigation, including speaking to all witnesses and then the officer will be dealt with accordingly.
Everybody is entitled to a fair investigation, including Police Officers.
As for the statement that all the officer's cases would be scrutinised,that is not necessarily true. On each case file , all officers involved have to declare any disciplinary or criminal findings of guilt against them. So if following an enquiry into this incident he has no case to answer, then he would have no guilty imcidents to declare.
I'm not defending (or attacking) this officer but am defending his entitlement to a full and fair hearing and more importantly, defending our Criminal Justice system. |
"However , suggesting he should be sacked based on that short clip is ridiculous and goes against the whole ethos of our legal system. "
No it doesn't because even though his behaviour might not amount to a criminal offence it certainly puts into question his competence to do the role and to uphold the standards of the organisation he represents.
You would expect a doctor to be struck off if he/she/they acted in a dodgy manner. You would expect a bus driver to be sacked if he threatened his passengers that he was going to drive off a cliff. |  |
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| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 11:38 - Apr 20 with 1553 views | Best_loser |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 10:25 - Apr 20 by Witneyjack |
I try not to get involved in these posts for obvious reasons. Your last sentence is astonishing really. British justice is based on 'innocence until proven guilty' and yet you are assuming guilt based on a short video clip.
I don't know the full circumstances but agree he hasn't covered himself in glory. However , suggesting he should be sacked based on that short clip is ridiculous and goes against the whole ethos of our legal system.
Let there be a full investigation, including speaking to all witnesses and then the officer will be dealt with accordingly.
Everybody is entitled to a fair investigation, including Police Officers.
As for the statement that all the officer's cases would be scrutinised,that is not necessarily true. On each case file , all officers involved have to declare any disciplinary or criminal findings of guilt against them. So if following an enquiry into this incident he has no case to answer, then he would have no guilty imcidents to declare.
I'm not defending (or attacking) this officer but am defending his entitlement to a full and fair hearing and more importantly, defending our Criminal Justice system. |
It's clear on the video what he said
Circumstances don't come into it
Threaten to use false charges, it's on video
His career is over | | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 11:39 - Apr 20 with 1548 views | Darran |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 10:25 - Apr 20 by Witneyjack |
I try not to get involved in these posts for obvious reasons. Your last sentence is astonishing really. British justice is based on 'innocence until proven guilty' and yet you are assuming guilt based on a short video clip.
I don't know the full circumstances but agree he hasn't covered himself in glory. However , suggesting he should be sacked based on that short clip is ridiculous and goes against the whole ethos of our legal system.
Let there be a full investigation, including speaking to all witnesses and then the officer will be dealt with accordingly.
Everybody is entitled to a fair investigation, including Police Officers.
As for the statement that all the officer's cases would be scrutinised,that is not necessarily true. On each case file , all officers involved have to declare any disciplinary or criminal findings of guilt against them. So if following an enquiry into this incident he has no case to answer, then he would have no guilty imcidents to declare.
I'm not defending (or attacking) this officer but am defending his entitlement to a full and fair hearing and more importantly, defending our Criminal Justice system. |
Great post D. |  |
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| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:16 - Apr 20 with 1512 views | Witneyjack |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 11:38 - Apr 20 by Best_loser |
It's clear on the video what he said
Circumstances don't come into it
Threaten to use false charges, it's on video
His career is over |
Ah ok | | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:18 - Apr 20 with 1507 views | Witneyjack |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 11:28 - Apr 20 by Highjack |
"However , suggesting he should be sacked based on that short clip is ridiculous and goes against the whole ethos of our legal system. "
No it doesn't because even though his behaviour might not amount to a criminal offence it certainly puts into question his competence to do the role and to uphold the standards of the organisation he represents.
You would expect a doctor to be struck off if he/she/they acted in a dodgy manner. You would expect a bus driver to be sacked if he threatened his passengers that he was going to drive off a cliff. |
That's why I mentioned disciplinary offences. I would expect people to be sacked AFTER a full investigation and hearing finding the complaints proven. | | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:19 - Apr 20 with 1505 views | Jackinexile1 |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:16 - Apr 20 by Witneyjack |
Ah ok |
Could you give an example of what would justify his behaviour shown in the video? What would make that acceptable resulting in him having done nothing wrong and no case to answer for... |  | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:22 - Apr 20 with 1492 views | Witneyjack |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:19 - Apr 20 by Jackinexile1 |
Could you give an example of what would justify his behaviour shown in the video? What would make that acceptable resulting in him having done nothing wrong and no case to answer for... |
My point is he is entitled to a full investigation including all witnesses and other video footage and then a chance to explain himself.
It's not my place to defend or excuse him, that's his place. | | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:27 - Apr 20 with 1481 views | Highjack |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:18 - Apr 20 by Witneyjack |
That's why I mentioned disciplinary offences. I would expect people to be sacked AFTER a full investigation and hearing finding the complaints proven. |
Of course, but the concept of innocent until proven guilty can only really apply to criminal charges. Going by the footage here this guy doesn’t have a leg to stand on in any disciplinary action. Whatever comes before or after in the footage is irrelevant. | |
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| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:51 - Apr 20 with 1447 views | chad |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:19 - Apr 20 by Jackinexile1 |
Could you give an example of what would justify his behaviour shown in the video? What would make that acceptable resulting in him having done nothing wrong and no case to answer for... |
Tourettes ¯_(ツ)_/¯ |  | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:51 - Apr 20 with 1447 views | Jinxy |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:22 - Apr 20 by Witneyjack |
My point is he is entitled to a full investigation including all witnesses and other video footage and then a chance to explain himself.
It's not my place to defend or excuse him, that's his place. |
I don't think many, if any on here would condone no formal process - I certainly wouldn't. I do though hope a process will be forthcoming, and all that I, and presumably most others on here, am merely doing is offering an opinion of the desired outcome, i.e. he should be sacked, reprimanded, or no action taken etc.. Given an apology has already been offered, I think wrongdoing has already been accepted by the police force, so it's highly likely they will formally investigate - hopefully anyway!
Everyone is entitled to a fair trial, and opinion for that matter. | | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:55 - Apr 20 with 1435 views | Witneyjack |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:27 - Apr 20 by Highjack |
Of course, but the concept of innocent until proven guilty can only really apply to criminal charges. Going by the footage here this guy doesn’t have a leg to stand on in any disciplinary action. Whatever comes before or after in the footage is irrelevant. |
In disciplinary proceedings it is based on balance of probability, but still following a hearing.
'Whatever comes before or after in the footage is irrelevant.'
Is it? For example, what if the driver had said ( but not shown) " Im going to tell everyone that you assaulted me" ? It could be argued that the officer's comment about making up an offence was a hypothetical reply.
As I have said elsewhere, I am not here to defend him but ALL the evidence should be heard not just a video clip posted online. Then and only then should any sanction be imposed based on the decision of the overseeing panel. | | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:56 - Apr 20 with 1432 views | monmouth |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:22 - Apr 20 by Witneyjack |
My point is he is entitled to a full investigation including all witnesses and other video footage and then a chance to explain himself.
It's not my place to defend or excuse him, that's his place. |
He is entitled to whatever the police investigation and disciplinary hearing process is, no more and no less. Anything else would lead to an employment tribunal that he would win.
So yes, due process must be followed. |  |
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| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 13:43 - Apr 20 with 1399 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 10:25 - Apr 20 by Witneyjack |
I try not to get involved in these posts for obvious reasons. Your last sentence is astonishing really. British justice is based on 'innocence until proven guilty' and yet you are assuming guilt based on a short video clip.
I don't know the full circumstances but agree he hasn't covered himself in glory. However , suggesting he should be sacked based on that short clip is ridiculous and goes against the whole ethos of our legal system.
Let there be a full investigation, including speaking to all witnesses and then the officer will be dealt with accordingly.
Everybody is entitled to a fair investigation, including Police Officers.
As for the statement that all the officer's cases would be scrutinised,that is not necessarily true. On each case file , all officers involved have to declare any disciplinary or criminal findings of guilt against them. So if following an enquiry into this incident he has no case to answer, then he would have no guilty imcidents to declare.
I'm not defending (or attacking) this officer but am defending his entitlement to a full and fair hearing and more importantly, defending our Criminal Justice system. |
What goes against the whole ethos of our legal system is a police officer threatening to make up a charge and saying ‘who do you think they’ll believe, me or you’?
There is nothing that can have happened that changes that sentence. There are plenty of things that may have understandably made the police officer angry, or frustrated, but not that. And it was so automatic as well. Instant response. I’d be surprised if that was the first time he’s said that.
It’s awful for all sorts of reasons, but not least because the police officer wouldn’t have said that, for example, to me. Not a chance in hell. He wouldn’t have said it to anyone that he viewed as more likely to have any degree of social standing. He’s saying it to someone that he views as powerless and unable to fight back. In other words, he’s a bully.
I’m not anti police by any stretch of the imagination - the majority do a wonderful job in sometimes awful circumstances. But these incidents are shameful.
I’m sure that there will be a full investigation, and rightly so, but I find it alarming, genuinely, that anyone can think what’s been said is anything other than completely unacceptable. |  | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 13:49 - Apr 20 with 1387 views | Darran |
Dramaqueenery,I fuçking hate it. | |
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| Police caught on camera threatening to on 13:52 - Apr 20 with 1377 views | chad |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 12:55 - Apr 20 by Witneyjack |
In disciplinary proceedings it is based on balance of probability, but still following a hearing.
'Whatever comes before or after in the footage is irrelevant.'
Is it? For example, what if the driver had said ( but not shown) " Im going to tell everyone that you assaulted me" ? It could be argued that the officer's comment about making up an offence was a hypothetical reply.
As I have said elsewhere, I am not here to defend him but ALL the evidence should be heard not just a video clip posted online. Then and only then should any sanction be imposed based on the decision of the overseeing panel. |
I don’t think your example is very realistic, in fact I would go as far as to say there is no way that could be realistically asserted to have been hypothetical, given the part of the conversation before the threat, that was recorded along with it.
Of course as I have stated before, certainly he should have a fair hearing (there is no question of that) as however unequivocal and realistic that clip seems, it could for e.g. have been staged, but given Lancs apology that seems a v.remote possibility.
Any mitigation would have to be something seriously off the wall I would have thought, before they think it acceptable in any way, for an officer to openly threaten to behave corruptly to fit up a member of the public. | | | |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 14:11 - Apr 20 with 1346 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Police caught on camera threatening to "make up a charge" on 13:49 - Apr 20 by Darran |
Dramaqueenery,I fuçking hate it. |
That’s like David and Victoria Beckham saying they hate publicity. | | | |
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