| Communism or Fascism. 08:08 - Jun 8 with 7491 views | ItchySphincter |
Which one is your favourite? |  |
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| Communism or Fascism. on 09:31 - Jun 8 with 4373 views | Professor |
Theoretically Communism, but it never works. Strangely Fascism can. Both Mussolini and Hitler were successful leaders for the majority of their fellow countrymen (or Germans in the case of the Austrian, Hitler). Problems come from removal of freedoms that lead to oppression (such as Franco in Spain), expansion or in the case of Nazism a belief in a master race that led to the slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and the disabled, coupled with the belief that Slavonic people were sub-human. Economically, Hitler pulled Germany out of the mire post-WW1 with a very socialist approach of investment in building an infrastructure (autobahns and railway) and industry (including the VW Beetle) which turned into a successful industry fuelling expansion and ultimately war.
Communism never really works on a national level mainly as those in power don't really follow its principles and don't live as comrades or communards and ultimately often become brutal dictators.
About four years ago I went to the 'Red Terror' museum in Meskel Square in Addis Ababa. The Derg regime in Ethiopia was perhaps the most brutal with murders and imprisonment along with systematically ignoring rebellious regions such as Tigray. The 1984 famine was a mix of natural disaster and political decisions.The museum is a remarkable place in one of the old Derg prisons. There are guides working there who were prisoners of the Derg who showed us graphically how they were restrained and tortured. The most harrowing is a pillar of skulls of unidentified 'disappeared' from a mass grave of several hundred thousand host outside the city. I am sure those who have visited Auschwitz are moved in the same way of the actions of fascism.
So I favour neither, though probably a fascist regime would be more bearable to live in. |  | | |
| Communism or Fascism. on 09:43 - Jun 8 with 4363 views | Private_Partz |
| Communism or Fascism. on 09:31 - Jun 8 by Professor |
Theoretically Communism, but it never works. Strangely Fascism can. Both Mussolini and Hitler were successful leaders for the majority of their fellow countrymen (or Germans in the case of the Austrian, Hitler). Problems come from removal of freedoms that lead to oppression (such as Franco in Spain), expansion or in the case of Nazism a belief in a master race that led to the slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and the disabled, coupled with the belief that Slavonic people were sub-human. Economically, Hitler pulled Germany out of the mire post-WW1 with a very socialist approach of investment in building an infrastructure (autobahns and railway) and industry (including the VW Beetle) which turned into a successful industry fuelling expansion and ultimately war.
Communism never really works on a national level mainly as those in power don't really follow its principles and don't live as comrades or communards and ultimately often become brutal dictators.
About four years ago I went to the 'Red Terror' museum in Meskel Square in Addis Ababa. The Derg regime in Ethiopia was perhaps the most brutal with murders and imprisonment along with systematically ignoring rebellious regions such as Tigray. The 1984 famine was a mix of natural disaster and political decisions.The museum is a remarkable place in one of the old Derg prisons. There are guides working there who were prisoners of the Derg who showed us graphically how they were restrained and tortured. The most harrowing is a pillar of skulls of unidentified 'disappeared' from a mass grave of several hundred thousand host outside the city. I am sure those who have visited Auschwitz are moved in the same way of the actions of fascism.
So I favour neither, though probably a fascist regime would be more bearable to live in. |
A very well reason argument.
I always think Communism fails due to human nature. Those at the top can't resist the gravy train, become power crazy, and it all falls to bits. Fascism is driven by the same although obvious from the off.
One extreme is virtually as bad as the other resulting in untold suffering and deaths.
I am sure a well know poster on here will dig shortly out his story books to try and argue that supporting the Labour Manifesto will lead to armageddon. |  |
| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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| Communism or Fascism. on 09:45 - Jun 8 with 4360 views | moonie |
Human beings are not born equal .
It's againgst basic human nature to expect pure communism to work.
All great communist leaders were as avaricious, greedy and self centred as is possible to be .
Their lives,their wealth evidence that
I like order so a good dictator ,if it's possible, would do for me
And a briilIant post ,Paul. Your writing is just fine [Post edited 8 Jun 2018 9:48]
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| Communism or Fascism. on 09:51 - Jun 8 with 4345 views | dickythorpe |
Good thread. |  | | |
| Communism or Fascism. on 09:51 - Jun 8 with 4345 views | Professor |
| Communism or Fascism. on 09:43 - Jun 8 by Private_Partz |
A very well reason argument.
I always think Communism fails due to human nature. Those at the top can't resist the gravy train, become power crazy, and it all falls to bits. Fascism is driven by the same although obvious from the off.
One extreme is virtually as bad as the other resulting in untold suffering and deaths.
I am sure a well know poster on here will dig shortly out his story books to try and argue that supporting the Labour Manifesto will lead to armageddon. |
Thank You.
Yes we are not truly altruistic so there is always a sense of selfishness and greed that makes you want more-which is why communism fails. Equally unchecked greed leads to the type of capitalism that has lead to the recent financial mess-not so much to do with the Blair/Brown government which (Iraq aside) may well look like a golden period in retrospect. I am inclined to socialism but in moderation. "Sweet moderation, heart of this nation" as an Essex-born folk singer once said. | | | |
| Communism or Fascism. on 09:53 - Jun 8 with 4341 views | Professor |
| Communism or Fascism. on 09:51 - Jun 8 by Professor |
Thank You.
Yes we are not truly altruistic so there is always a sense of selfishness and greed that makes you want more-which is why communism fails. Equally unchecked greed leads to the type of capitalism that has lead to the recent financial mess-not so much to do with the Blair/Brown government which (Iraq aside) may well look like a golden period in retrospect. I am inclined to socialism but in moderation. "Sweet moderation, heart of this nation" as an Essex-born folk singer once said. |
...and I too possess some of that sense of greed. A modicum is needed to succeed but not to extent that you shaft all to get there, | | | |
| Communism or Fascism. on 09:53 - Jun 8 with 4341 views | dickythorpe |
Could someone define Capitalism for me? Thanks in advance. | | | |
| Communism or Fascism. on 09:56 - Jun 8 with 4332 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
Depends what floats your boat
You would need to stay away from the temptation of greed to be a great communist. |  |
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| Communism or Fascism. on 09:56 - Jun 8 with 4332 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| Communism or Fascism. on 09:51 - Jun 8 by Professor |
Thank You.
Yes we are not truly altruistic so there is always a sense of selfishness and greed that makes you want more-which is why communism fails. Equally unchecked greed leads to the type of capitalism that has lead to the recent financial mess-not so much to do with the Blair/Brown government which (Iraq aside) may well look like a golden period in retrospect. I am inclined to socialism but in moderation. "Sweet moderation, heart of this nation" as an Essex-born folk singer once said. |
What do you think of the Scandinavian model of moderate socialism, Prof? |  |
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| Communism or Fascism. on 10:03 - Jun 8 with 4323 views | Professor |
| Communism or Fascism. on 09:53 - Jun 8 by dickythorpe |
Could someone define Capitalism for me? Thanks in advance. |
In simple terms it is industry or services undertaken for private gain rather than for the benefit of a state or its people.
Of course that does not mean that capitalism does not provide and advantage to a country, it clearly does in terms of taxation etc. The problem is when capitalism completely excludes this. Of course the argument is the USA is a nation founded on the basis of not wanting to pay tax, not for liberty.
There are countries that are very rich though capitalism, yet are also very socialist in terms of society. One could argue most Northen European countries fit the latter. The issue is that fewer people are very rich in these countries. | | | |
| Communism or Fascism. on 10:08 - Jun 8 with 4311 views | moonie |
Paul.You are more intelligent and educated than most so it's your right to have greater individual wealth ,if that is the right word. You deserve it and those who are idle,feckless and utterly uninterested in education and working deserve to be at the bottom of the wealth ladder.
People have to be rewarded properly .
People have to be brave enough to start businesses to employ people and keep society vibrant | | | |
| Communism or Fascism. on 10:09 - Jun 8 with 4310 views | Professor |
| Communism or Fascism. on 09:56 - Jun 8 by Joe_bradshaw |
What do you think of the Scandinavian model of moderate socialism, Prof? |
It, or indeed the more moderate approach of Germany, are what I would favour in a developed economy. It works fairly well as it is accepted by most. I think it struggles to be accepted in the UK as we look to our fellow anglophones across the Atlantic more and accept/encourage the desire to 'make it big' whereas most of Northern Europe accept higher taxation for a 'greater good'.
That is not to preclude individuals being more successful than others but more a narrowing of divides. I think we have gone too far to go down this road now. I can't see us getting a moderate government in the near future either. Corbyn and May are both disasters. | | | |
| Communism or Fascism. on 10:14 - Jun 8 with 4304 views | moonie |
We are still stuck in class war ,Paul.
We have people branded " wording class" T birth and no matter how much they achieve in later life ,they will always be such and not afforded respect by those born of a higher class .
Until, everyone in this country accepts that and we rid ourselves of this grotesque style of monarchy and have the aristocracy brought to book then we ll always be fooked up.
We need to free our kids of the bonds of the past whatever social class it might be | | | |
| Communism or Fascism. on 10:18 - Jun 8 with 4299 views | Professor |
| Communism or Fascism. on 10:14 - Jun 8 by moonie |
We are still stuck in class war ,Paul.
We have people branded " wording class" T birth and no matter how much they achieve in later life ,they will always be such and not afforded respect by those born of a higher class .
Until, everyone in this country accepts that and we rid ourselves of this grotesque style of monarchy and have the aristocracy brought to book then we ll always be fooked up.
We need to free our kids of the bonds of the past whatever social class it might be |
Well said.
My Welsh accent does me no favours even in the University of Liverpool. God forbid anyone in a senior management position here would have a Scouse accent. My good friend and colleague next door, Professor Williams has also achieved through hard work, There are few female Scouse Professors. The barriers to achievement are still there. God, how the Dutch or Swedish model of Monarchy would bring such a boost, | | | |
| Communism or Fascism. on 10:21 - Jun 8 with 4295 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
Let’s not get communism and socialism tarred with the same brush here ,many ill informed think it’s the same . | |
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| Communism or Fascism. on 10:24 - Jun 8 with 4285 views | Loyal |
| Communism or Fascism. on 10:21 - Jun 8 by oh_tommy_tommy |
Let’s not get communism and socialism tarred with the same brush here ,many ill informed think it’s the same . |
The same could be said for fascism and right wing. |  |
| Nolan sympathiser, clout expert, personal friend of Leigh Dineen, advocate and enforcer of porridge swallows.
The official inventor of the tit w@nk. | | Poll: | Who should be Swansea number 1 |
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| Communism or Fascism. on 10:25 - Jun 8 with 4283 views | Professor |
| Communism or Fascism. on 10:21 - Jun 8 by oh_tommy_tommy |
Let’s not get communism and socialism tarred with the same brush here ,many ill informed think it’s the same . |
It's not, you are right. One can be a capitalist and a socialist at the same time, but not a capitalist and communist. Most Marxist countries were/are not socialist, whereas many Fenno-scandanavian countries are. | | | |
| Communism or Fascism. on 10:31 - Jun 8 with 4272 views | moonie |
This has bee the most uplifting exchange Ive seen on here in ages.
Sensible people commenting as it really is.
No ideology is better than any other unless you think it's so.
Accents, btw, are this countries give away as regards what is seen as intelligent,smart or cultural.
If you sound " posh" still ,you are seen as in some way better than another ,just be iss of how you speak .
And it's 2018 | | | |
| Communism or Fascism. on 10:35 - Jun 8 with 4262 views | Lohengrin |
| Communism or Fascism. on 10:21 - Jun 8 by oh_tommy_tommy |
Let’s not get communism and socialism tarred with the same brush here ,many ill informed think it’s the same . |
For the entertainment of somebody who isn’t ill-informed try and gather the disparate strands of Socialist thought into a cohesive whole and have a bash at where you think the writings of Blatchford differs in its essentials from those of Lenin or where in the dialectic Wheatley would sharply diverge from Trotsky?
Rest easy, Tom. I’m pulling your leg, son.  |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Communism or Fascism. on 11:20 - Jun 8 with 4226 views | omarjack |
Communism is a form fascism..just it empathises on grinding down populations in the name of equality..while right-wing fascism grinds down populations for the opposite reasons.. |  |
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| Communism or Fascism. on 11:34 - Jun 8 with 4211 views | Lohengrin |
| Communism or Fascism. on 11:20 - Jun 8 by omarjack |
Communism is a form fascism..just it empathises on grinding down populations in the name of equality..while right-wing fascism grinds down populations for the opposite reasons.. |
You’re going to have to elaborate on that, spell out these “reasons.” | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Communism or Fascism. on 11:39 - Jun 8 with 4202 views | omarjack |
| Communism or Fascism. on 11:34 - Jun 8 by Lohengrin |
You’re going to have to elaborate on that, spell out these “reasons.” |
Well as I said communism empathises on "equality" right?
Right-wing fascism (or Nazism) empathises on the opposite of equality amongst the people..it's usually the "elite race" that grinds down the populations of the "inferior races" either killing them,stripping their fortunes or deporting them etc..
Communism is bad for everyone..Nazism is only good for the "the average person"..in the West, it's White straight people from Christian heritage. [Post edited 8 Jun 2018 11:40]
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| Communism or Fascism. on 11:53 - Jun 8 with 4178 views | Shaky |
There is a widespread misunderstanding of the nature of Communism that is also clearly in evidence here.
For starters Communism was never anything resembling a comprehensive economic or social theory.
it was instead largely a social and economic criticism of a specific form of capitalism, namely the sort of thing that existed in newly industrialised countries in the first half on the 19th century.
And frankly, if you are aware of workers' conditions in those circumstances and were not appalled by them and condemned them without qualification, you're a bit of a monster.
On top of that Marx and Engels for some reason concocted a bit of outright nonsense. They in essence made a prophecy that due to the social and economic hardships and contradictions caused by early 19th century capitalism, factory workers would rise up and a revolution would ensue.
It turns out that never really came to pass, even in Russia and China which were agrarian countries.
However, what remained was the perfectly valid criticism of 19th century capitalism. But contrary to Marx's prophecy of revolution this was largely addressed by piecemeal social change, as the planks of the Communist Manifesto were gradually incorporated into mainstream politics.
Here is an excellent summary of the Communist Manifesto written by some nutjob American right-winger, arguing that the US is now a Marxist state.
http://laissez-fairerepublic.com/tenplanks.html
Of course it isn't, it is just that the all too reasonable bits of the Communist Manifesto have been incorporated into polite society, while the abhorrent stain on humanity that was 19th century capitalism was been eradicated -- at least in what we might refer to as the civilised world. |  |
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| Communism or Fascism. on 12:00 - Jun 8 with 4168 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
| Communism or Fascism. on 10:35 - Jun 8 by Lohengrin |
For the entertainment of somebody who isn’t ill-informed try and gather the disparate strands of Socialist thought into a cohesive whole and have a bash at where you think the writings of Blatchford differs in its essentials from those of Lenin or where in the dialectic Wheatley would sharply diverge from Trotsky?
Rest easy, Tom. I’m pulling your leg, son. |
I nearly bit half way through 😀 | |
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| Communism or Fascism. on 12:03 - Jun 8 with 4163 views | Bobby_Fischer |
| Communism or Fascism. on 09:31 - Jun 8 by Professor |
Theoretically Communism, but it never works. Strangely Fascism can. Both Mussolini and Hitler were successful leaders for the majority of their fellow countrymen (or Germans in the case of the Austrian, Hitler). Problems come from removal of freedoms that lead to oppression (such as Franco in Spain), expansion or in the case of Nazism a belief in a master race that led to the slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and the disabled, coupled with the belief that Slavonic people were sub-human. Economically, Hitler pulled Germany out of the mire post-WW1 with a very socialist approach of investment in building an infrastructure (autobahns and railway) and industry (including the VW Beetle) which turned into a successful industry fuelling expansion and ultimately war.
Communism never really works on a national level mainly as those in power don't really follow its principles and don't live as comrades or communards and ultimately often become brutal dictators.
About four years ago I went to the 'Red Terror' museum in Meskel Square in Addis Ababa. The Derg regime in Ethiopia was perhaps the most brutal with murders and imprisonment along with systematically ignoring rebellious regions such as Tigray. The 1984 famine was a mix of natural disaster and political decisions.The museum is a remarkable place in one of the old Derg prisons. There are guides working there who were prisoners of the Derg who showed us graphically how they were restrained and tortured. The most harrowing is a pillar of skulls of unidentified 'disappeared' from a mass grave of several hundred thousand host outside the city. I am sure those who have visited Auschwitz are moved in the same way of the actions of fascism.
So I favour neither, though probably a fascist regime would be more bearable to live in. |
Spot on. |  |
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