| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. 20:14 - Feb 19 with 17678 views | exiledclaseboy |
F*ck me get on with it. Everyone knows you're going to come out with something fairly meaningless that you'll hail as a triumph before your Cabinet members start scratching each other's eyes out from now until all eternity. [Post edited 19 Feb 2016 20:22]
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 23:20 - Feb 20 with 1367 views | exiledclaseboy |
Righties should love the EU. All those white, Northern European types clubbing together for the greater good. Manna from heaven for them. | |
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| Cameron's EU on 23:23 - Feb 20 with 1364 views | Kerouac |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 21:31 - Feb 20 by londonlisa2001 |
Sorry I down arrowed you in error when I didn't mean to (although actually I don't agree with your post).
I certainly agree that there are many reasons why people may want out - as I've already said, I am unsure. There are also many examples given by UKIP of reasons why they want out that are perfectly reasonable. However, UKIP is chock full of racists and bigots - they try to hush them up, but one only had to listen to Paul Nuttall on QT a few weeks ago to understand his motivation. He just doesn't like Asians (on that occasion, he didn't like the fact they were voting for someone other than UKIP and was desperately trying to find a reason for ignoring them without saying 'it's because they're Asian').
Likewise that awful Geoffrey Bloom and many many more. I also have to say in my experience which may be unique of course, I have never met anyone that votes UKIP who actually just doesn't like foreigners or other races much.
So while I think it's correct that many people want to or may want to come out of th EU for many reasons that have little or nothing to do with race or immigration, I think UKIP is for me at least, one of the reasons I may vote to stay in. |
So let me get this correct....
Even if your analysis of the question leads you to conclude that it makes more sense to vote out...
you'll still vote in because other people who have reached the same conclusion, who may or may not be bigots/xenophobes/racists, will be voting the same as you and you don't like them?
When I vote Lib Dem I do it because of what they stand for and because their agenda most closely matches mine.
There is party policy I disagree on and therefore it is true that there are many Lib Dems who hold different opinions to my own.
I couldn't give 2 fugs why the other people who vote Lib Dem choose to do so!
Which is the correct method of concluding who to vote for?
On the basis of what everybody else is doing? Peer pressure?
Or reason and critical analysis?
By the way, which part of my post did you disagree with?
The only point I made was that just because you disagree with someone's political stance on an issue it is not right to label those people ( people who you don't know the first thing about never mind their thoughts concerning race) as "racists".
These tactics can not be a substitute for political debate.
CALLING PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THE POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC UNION BETWEEN THE UK & THE EU A "RACIST" IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF BEING A "BIGOT".
For christ sakes is it too much to expect of those who want us to stay in to actually make a coherent, detailed, political argument in support of their viewpoint?
They'd be knocking at an open door here as I used to believe the EU was a good idea.
The evidence before me and the poverty of the arguments in favour (usually a heap load of empty rhetoric) is the very thing that has driven me into the "out" camp. [Post edited 21 Feb 2016 0:35]
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| Cameron's EU on 23:53 - Feb 20 with 1325 views | Swanseajill |
I'm not interested in politics, few politicians tells it as it is, and generally leave out the nasty bits they don't want you to hear.
But I am interested in what will happen to my grandchildren.
No one on here can dispute the fact that the NHS is....overwhelmed. Too many patients for them to deal with, and I couldn't give a monkey's uncle what colour or creed they are, only that this country is too small to open its borders to all Europeans.
Since the last referendum when I voted No to *A Common Market* .Manufacturing has declined even further in the last 40 years.
During the early years after the first referendum, people in the UK expected our manufacturing to increase with the common market becoming our outlet. It was all bunkum spun by the politicians of the day. The vote was close 40 years ago, I don't think it will be this time. |  | | |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 00:17 - Feb 21 with 1293 views | Joe_bradshaw |
If anyone fancies a flutter the current odds are:
Stay. 2/7
Leave 5/2 |  |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 00:30 - Feb 21 with 1275 views | Highjack |
Ive always been naturally eurosceptic so I will be voting leave.
Our democracy is far from perfect and we moan a lot about them but at least we elect and know who our MPs are and they are sort of accountable.
The fact we have so much legislation forced upon us by anonymous, unaccountable entities that we don't elect and have no say about doesn't sit right with me in any sense. |  |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 06:29 - Feb 21 with 1220 views | dgt73 |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 23:20 - Feb 20 by exiledclaseboy |
Righties should love the EU. All those white, Northern European types clubbing together for the greater good. Manna from heaven for them. |
And and of course that's what the EU is isn't it. |  |
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| Cameron's EU on 06:34 - Feb 21 with 1219 views | dgt73 |
| Cameron's EU on 23:06 - Feb 20 by Kilkennyjack |
What i said is true.
I think you are just too dull to understand.
I guess school was difficult and embarrassing for you. What a div. |
What you said is a figment of your imagination.
You support Irish , Scottish independence but hate the idea of British independence.
You can always leave in the event of Brexit and move to the ROI. [Post edited 21 Feb 2016 6:50]
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| Cameron's EU on 06:40 - Feb 21 with 1217 views | dgt73 |
| Cameron's EU on 23:23 - Feb 20 by Kerouac |
So let me get this correct....
Even if your analysis of the question leads you to conclude that it makes more sense to vote out...
you'll still vote in because other people who have reached the same conclusion, who may or may not be bigots/xenophobes/racists, will be voting the same as you and you don't like them?
When I vote Lib Dem I do it because of what they stand for and because their agenda most closely matches mine.
There is party policy I disagree on and therefore it is true that there are many Lib Dems who hold different opinions to my own.
I couldn't give 2 fugs why the other people who vote Lib Dem choose to do so!
Which is the correct method of concluding who to vote for?
On the basis of what everybody else is doing? Peer pressure?
Or reason and critical analysis?
By the way, which part of my post did you disagree with?
The only point I made was that just because you disagree with someone's political stance on an issue it is not right to label those people ( people who you don't know the first thing about never mind their thoughts concerning race) as "racists".
These tactics can not be a substitute for political debate.
CALLING PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THE POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC UNION BETWEEN THE UK & THE EU A "RACIST" IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF BEING A "BIGOT".
For christ sakes is it too much to expect of those who want us to stay in to actually make a coherent, detailed, political argument in support of their viewpoint?
They'd be knocking at an open door here as I used to believe the EU was a good idea.
The evidence before me and the poverty of the arguments in favour (usually a heap load of empty rhetoric) is the very thing that has driven me into the "out" camp. [Post edited 21 Feb 2016 0:35]
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Good post. The idea you vote against the way you want to, because you disagree with how others think who will vote the way you want to - is ridiculous. That's Lisa for you. Pmsl [Post edited 21 Feb 2016 8:11]
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 12:24 - Feb 21 with 1146 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
Well coming from the looney left ,at the moment I'm staying in the EU , wales gets a lot out of the EU .
Westminster will f@ck us over.
Much more workers rights also in the EU ,altough these c@nts in charge of the UK are doing the best to slowly dismantle that . |  |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 12:36 - Feb 21 with 1138 views | VetchitBack |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 20:26 - Feb 19 by londonlisa2001 |
The more this goes on, the more utterly convinced I am that the vote will be to come out.
And it's almost totally to do with people wanting to smack his smug face (well, plus lots just don't like foreigners very much)!! |
Well at least you've captured the nuanced and thoughtful angle the "in" lot will probably take.
To be fair even the BBC are no longer pretending it's just Farage and his merry band of racists who want out. It encapsulates democrats (no US meaning) from across the political spectrum.
Hugh Gaitskill's comments from around 1962 remain as apt today.
The Tories are and have always been the most enthusiastic Europhiles whilst pretending otherwise to the British public. Well those and people who are ideologically opposed to the nation state obviously. |  |
| The orthodox are always orthodox, regardless of the orthodoxy.
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 13:37 - Feb 21 with 1077 views | blueytheblue |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 12:36 - Feb 21 by VetchitBack |
Well at least you've captured the nuanced and thoughtful angle the "in" lot will probably take.
To be fair even the BBC are no longer pretending it's just Farage and his merry band of racists who want out. It encapsulates democrats (no US meaning) from across the political spectrum.
Hugh Gaitskill's comments from around 1962 remain as apt today.
The Tories are and have always been the most enthusiastic Europhiles whilst pretending otherwise to the British public. Well those and people who are ideologically opposed to the nation state obviously. |
Eh?
Tories support the common market. The trading block. Most people don't have a problem with that.
What people have a problem with is the socialist experiment of taking diverse peoples with different cultures, justice system, financial system et al and trying to make a "United States of Europe", ignoring the differences between nations in Europe and states in America.
That's why there's the farcical Euro with people like the Greeks deliberately and cynically lying to gain the benefits of being in the Euro; benefits basically being getting everyone else to pick up the tab. |  |
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| Cameron's EU on 13:44 - Feb 21 with 1067 views | Davillin |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 21:50 - Feb 20 by dgt73 |
And what are these facts ? Can't wait to hear them. |
Kilkenny's post -- "Closer European ties have kept people safe - yep thats a fact" -- was written "tongue-in-cheek," if I'm not mistaken.
It's come to a pretty pass when a Yank has to explain Scottish humour to an Englishman. Oh, wait, "Irish humour." It's easy to confuse the two. [Post edited 21 Feb 2016 13:50]
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 13:49 - Feb 21 with 1049 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 13:37 - Feb 21 by blueytheblue |
Eh?
Tories support the common market. The trading block. Most people don't have a problem with that.
What people have a problem with is the socialist experiment of taking diverse peoples with different cultures, justice system, financial system et al and trying to make a "United States of Europe", ignoring the differences between nations in Europe and states in America.
That's why there's the farcical Euro with people like the Greeks deliberately and cynically lying to gain the benefits of being in the Euro; benefits basically being getting everyone else to pick up the tab. |
Socialist experiment? Really? | |
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| Cameron's EU on 13:58 - Feb 21 with 1032 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Cameron's EU on 23:23 - Feb 20 by Kerouac |
So let me get this correct....
Even if your analysis of the question leads you to conclude that it makes more sense to vote out...
you'll still vote in because other people who have reached the same conclusion, who may or may not be bigots/xenophobes/racists, will be voting the same as you and you don't like them?
When I vote Lib Dem I do it because of what they stand for and because their agenda most closely matches mine.
There is party policy I disagree on and therefore it is true that there are many Lib Dems who hold different opinions to my own.
I couldn't give 2 fugs why the other people who vote Lib Dem choose to do so!
Which is the correct method of concluding who to vote for?
On the basis of what everybody else is doing? Peer pressure?
Or reason and critical analysis?
By the way, which part of my post did you disagree with?
The only point I made was that just because you disagree with someone's political stance on an issue it is not right to label those people ( people who you don't know the first thing about never mind their thoughts concerning race) as "racists".
These tactics can not be a substitute for political debate.
CALLING PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THE POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC UNION BETWEEN THE UK & THE EU A "RACIST" IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF BEING A "BIGOT".
For christ sakes is it too much to expect of those who want us to stay in to actually make a coherent, detailed, political argument in support of their viewpoint?
They'd be knocking at an open door here as I used to believe the EU was a good idea.
The evidence before me and the poverty of the arguments in favour (usually a heap load of empty rhetoric) is the very thing that has driven me into the "out" camp. [Post edited 21 Feb 2016 0:35]
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Um, no - it was a vaguely humorous remark indicating that they turn me against the out argument not towards it because I think a lot of them are fruitcakes.and I singled out Paul Nuttall and Godfrey Bloom (although for some reason that seemed to correct to Geoffrey)!
I had already stated my genuine (current) uncertainty about which way to vote and the reasons for it on both sides in the previous more serious post which you responded to, so didn't bother repeating any of them.
And the part of your post I disagreed with was that you had responded to someone else criticising UKIP by taking it as a criticism of an 'out' vote in general - I think the two things are very different which was a distinction I was attempting (obviously unsuccessfully) to draw. | | | |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 13:59 - Feb 21 with 1032 views | trampie |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 13:37 - Feb 21 by blueytheblue |
Eh?
Tories support the common market. The trading block. Most people don't have a problem with that.
What people have a problem with is the socialist experiment of taking diverse peoples with different cultures, justice system, financial system et al and trying to make a "United States of Europe", ignoring the differences between nations in Europe and states in America.
That's why there's the farcical Euro with people like the Greeks deliberately and cynically lying to gain the benefits of being in the Euro; benefits basically being getting everyone else to pick up the tab. |
Socialists didn't want it, it was the Tories that wanted it and took us into it. |  |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:00 - Feb 21 with 1030 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 12:36 - Feb 21 by VetchitBack |
Well at least you've captured the nuanced and thoughtful angle the "in" lot will probably take.
To be fair even the BBC are no longer pretending it's just Farage and his merry band of racists who want out. It encapsulates democrats (no US meaning) from across the political spectrum.
Hugh Gaitskill's comments from around 1962 remain as apt today.
The Tories are and have always been the most enthusiastic Europhiles whilst pretending otherwise to the British public. Well those and people who are ideologically opposed to the nation state obviously. |
Huh? I said wanting to smack Cameron's smug face was a reason to vote out and a perfectly justifiable one. In my opinion, his charade has actually made me more likely to vote out than if we'd stayed as we were. | | | |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:02 - Feb 21 with 1029 views | blueytheblue |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 13:59 - Feb 21 by trampie |
Socialists didn't want it, it was the Tories that wanted it and took us into it. |
So what the EU is now is what the common market was at the time of the original referendum? Of course not.
Socialists didn't want the common trading block. Political, economic, justice integration absolutely they do. | |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:03 - Feb 21 with 1026 views | blueytheblue |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 13:49 - Feb 21 by exiledclaseboy |
Socialist experiment? Really? |
Really. Who else wants to harmonise everyone across Europe whilst ignoring the bleeding obvious, ie the differences are far too big to have a "one size fits all" approach. | |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:09 - Feb 21 with 998 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:03 - Feb 21 by blueytheblue |
Really. Who else wants to harmonise everyone across Europe whilst ignoring the bleeding obvious, ie the differences are far too big to have a "one size fits all" approach. |
So who are the socialists who have been actively pushing further integration over the last three decades? Heath? Thatcher? Major? Blair? Chirac? Merkel? Kohl? The only real socialists involved were Mitterrand and now Hollande. | |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:21 - Feb 21 with 982 views | blueytheblue |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:09 - Feb 21 by exiledclaseboy |
So who are the socialists who have been actively pushing further integration over the last three decades? Heath? Thatcher? Major? Blair? Chirac? Merkel? Kohl? The only real socialists involved were Mitterrand and now Hollande. |
That implies national leaders necessarily have the power in the EU. | |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:23 - Feb 21 with 976 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:21 - Feb 21 by blueytheblue |
That implies national leaders necessarily have the power in the EU. |
Oh right. Well if they don't, who does? | |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:26 - Feb 21 with 969 views | blueytheblue |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:23 - Feb 21 by exiledclaseboy |
Oh right. Well if they don't, who does? |
I'd posit the Eu as an organisation has become so large and bloated that it's become the big entity in it's own right. The institutions and people running them certainly appear more socialist in nature. | |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:27 - Feb 21 with 968 views | trampie |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:02 - Feb 21 by blueytheblue |
So what the EU is now is what the common market was at the time of the original referendum? Of course not.
Socialists didn't want the common trading block. Political, economic, justice integration absolutely they do. |
Michael Foot and Tony Benn were against the Common Market. | |
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