| Trust meeting with BoD 09:00 - Nov 3 with 28709 views | IOMDale |
Does anybody know how last night went or are we to wait for an update from the Trust? Because let's be honest, it won't be the BoD releasing information in a rush. |  | | |  |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 08:38 - Nov 9 with 4150 views | TalkingSutty |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 08:19 - Nov 9 by Dalenet |
I don't disagree with most of that. The Board has created a vacuum on communications when there is no need for it. We know they are spending time talking to potential suitors and that is where their focus is, but the existing business suffers if the fanbase drfit away. If you are trying to sell a business, you need to show you have something good to sell.
We have lost 3 Board directors in the past 6 months. None have been replaced as far as I can see. One of those lost Board members was showcased as somebody with strong marketing and customer engagement skills. If a smaller board is now focussed on the sale, who is running the business? Why haven't they tried to recruit onto the Board? Is there a Board member with strong business or communication skills that could manage the day to day and start engaging with the fans? Hoping we don't need new board members because a new owner is on the cards is naive.
I remain worried that we haven't cut our cloth for this league. The Chairmans hoped for "bounce back" doesn't look to be on the cards and we lose more funding in 8 months time. If he can't find a sugar daddy he needs to start talking to the fans about plan B. As shareholders we are in the dark - and as you say - they can't get those comms right either. Murray has to press his Board colleagues to be more open and transparent. I am worried that we will run out of cash anyday. Has the Director's loan been drawndown? Is this the last chance saloon?
I'm still not of the view that the Chairman has to go - but he isn't winning many friends right now and given what he has done to save the club, and using his family's cash to do it, that should be a strong legacy. My plea to him is please don't tarnish that. |
Well you learn something new everyday. Where was it announced that three directors have left in the last 6 months? |  | | |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 08:58 - Nov 9 with 4097 views | TalkingSutty |
Thanks for that, i thought you was referring to the main Directors in the boardroom who purchased the MH shares. I would imagine if a new owner comes into the club they will bring their own people in and most of the current Directors and chairman will stand down. If not then nothing much changes at the club and new ideas aren't implemented properly. The club needs a shake up from top to bottom, i wouldn't be looking at changing the manager though, he's doing a good job. [Post edited 9 Nov 2023 9:07]
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| Trust meeting with BoD on 10:16 - Nov 9 with 3940 views | EllDale |
Just for information - and for comparative purposes - Halifax Town had a fans forum last night.
I didn't go but one of my lads did as his firm do a bit of sponsorship there.
In terms of fanbase they're probably pretty similar to Dale.
They rent the ground from the local authority and the chairman reckons that it costs them £150k per month to keep going yet net income from home games is around 13k. The most they can expect is 39k per month.
The shortfall has to be made up from sponsorship, the odd TV fee and player sales.
He said that they only have three or full fulltime staff. Every other function is done by volunteers and/or directors. He personally hasn't had a holiday for several years.
The club shop is now predominantly online with a popup shop on matchdays run by the supporters club.
They lost last season's leading scorer to Hartlepool (the guy who missed the sitter against us the other week) because he was their highest earner but Hartlepool could pay him more because they had a parachute payment. |  | | |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 10:26 - Nov 9 with 3917 views | James1980 |
Against the back drop of the cost of living crisis and the community trust's work. I think laying off staff could do more harm than good for the club. | |
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| Trust meeting with BoD on 11:08 - Nov 9 with 3838 views | TalkingSutty |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 10:16 - Nov 9 by EllDale |
Just for information - and for comparative purposes - Halifax Town had a fans forum last night.
I didn't go but one of my lads did as his firm do a bit of sponsorship there.
In terms of fanbase they're probably pretty similar to Dale.
They rent the ground from the local authority and the chairman reckons that it costs them £150k per month to keep going yet net income from home games is around 13k. The most they can expect is 39k per month.
The shortfall has to be made up from sponsorship, the odd TV fee and player sales.
He said that they only have three or full fulltime staff. Every other function is done by volunteers and/or directors. He personally hasn't had a holiday for several years.
The club shop is now predominantly online with a popup shop on matchdays run by the supporters club.
They lost last season's leading scorer to Hartlepool (the guy who missed the sitter against us the other week) because he was their highest earner but Hartlepool could pay him more because they had a parachute payment. |
...and they ran rings around us at Spotland last month, also sitting higher in the league. Not everything comes down to money. It's the council who own their ground if I'm not mistaken. We own our ground, unlike many clubs at our level, some of who operate with part time players on a third of our attendances, even in the National League. There's a lot of clubs a lot worse off than us, there is loads of scope for our club to improve if the right people get hold of it. I think our average home attendance is maybe quite a bit higher than Halifax's now but both clubs have always struggled to attract crowds. The figures are frightening, regionalise the leagues and amalgamate local clubs in one stadium would be something that I would welcome. I know many fans wouldn't but I'd rather that than see these clubs go out of business completely. [Post edited 9 Nov 2023 11:19]
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| Trust meeting with BoD on 11:21 - Nov 9 with 3804 views | Dalenet |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 11:08 - Nov 9 by TalkingSutty |
...and they ran rings around us at Spotland last month, also sitting higher in the league. Not everything comes down to money. It's the council who own their ground if I'm not mistaken. We own our ground, unlike many clubs at our level, some of who operate with part time players on a third of our attendances, even in the National League. There's a lot of clubs a lot worse off than us, there is loads of scope for our club to improve if the right people get hold of it. I think our average home attendance is maybe quite a bit higher than Halifax's now but both clubs have always struggled to attract crowds. The figures are frightening, regionalise the leagues and amalgamate local clubs in one stadium would be something that I would welcome. I know many fans wouldn't but I'd rather that than see these clubs go out of business completely. [Post edited 9 Nov 2023 11:19]
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Indeed. I am not sure those Halifax figures can be true - a net number can hide lots of things. But their argument is clear - they can't make ends meet and they can't employ a lot of staff.
Watching some of the Champions League stuff reminds me of how how professional sport in the UK is out of control. Nobody attending the Dortmund v Newcastle game paid more than £20. We charge fans £24 to watch non leagiue football. And very few come.
There was a report the other day on Rugby League. Every single Superleague club loses money each year - from £600k to £2.5m each. The RFL is on deficit and can no longer justify the Big Weekend sporting event. The lower league clubs are all clinging on with their finger tips. Mazeys communication to hornets fans in recent weeks has been sobering and very clear. Rugby Union, for all its wealth is in the same position, and so is county cricket.
The sooner the Football regulator is in situ and the fans are central to the sport, it won't get any better. And there needs to be teeth too. None of the shenanigans to avoid it. Costs across the board have to be cut throughout professional sport | | | |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 11:26 - Nov 9 with 3805 views | TalkingSutty |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 11:21 - Nov 9 by Dalenet |
Indeed. I am not sure those Halifax figures can be true - a net number can hide lots of things. But their argument is clear - they can't make ends meet and they can't employ a lot of staff.
Watching some of the Champions League stuff reminds me of how how professional sport in the UK is out of control. Nobody attending the Dortmund v Newcastle game paid more than £20. We charge fans £24 to watch non leagiue football. And very few come.
There was a report the other day on Rugby League. Every single Superleague club loses money each year - from £600k to £2.5m each. The RFL is on deficit and can no longer justify the Big Weekend sporting event. The lower league clubs are all clinging on with their finger tips. Mazeys communication to hornets fans in recent weeks has been sobering and very clear. Rugby Union, for all its wealth is in the same position, and so is county cricket.
The sooner the Football regulator is in situ and the fans are central to the sport, it won't get any better. And there needs to be teeth too. None of the shenanigans to avoid it. Costs across the board have to be cut throughout professional sport |
Great Post. | | | |
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| Trust meeting with BoD on 12:24 - Nov 9 with 3702 views | judd |
New date set for Thursday 23rd November. The focus group meeting on 30th November will still go ahead, too. |  |
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| Trust meeting with BoD on 12:38 - Nov 9 with 3663 views | Plattyswrinklynuts |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 11:21 - Nov 9 by Dalenet |
Indeed. I am not sure those Halifax figures can be true - a net number can hide lots of things. But their argument is clear - they can't make ends meet and they can't employ a lot of staff.
Watching some of the Champions League stuff reminds me of how how professional sport in the UK is out of control. Nobody attending the Dortmund v Newcastle game paid more than £20. We charge fans £24 to watch non leagiue football. And very few come.
There was a report the other day on Rugby League. Every single Superleague club loses money each year - from £600k to £2.5m each. The RFL is on deficit and can no longer justify the Big Weekend sporting event. The lower league clubs are all clinging on with their finger tips. Mazeys communication to hornets fans in recent weeks has been sobering and very clear. Rugby Union, for all its wealth is in the same position, and so is county cricket.
The sooner the Football regulator is in situ and the fans are central to the sport, it won't get any better. And there needs to be teeth too. None of the shenanigans to avoid it. Costs across the board have to be cut throughout professional sport |
Would be interesting to see the picture at the 4-5th level of German football though… The elephant in the room in this country is & has always been player wages. Good luck to anyone who suggests they take a 50% pay cut… |  | | |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 13:01 - Nov 9 with 3591 views | EllDale |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 11:21 - Nov 9 by Dalenet |
Indeed. I am not sure those Halifax figures can be true - a net number can hide lots of things. But their argument is clear - they can't make ends meet and they can't employ a lot of staff.
Watching some of the Champions League stuff reminds me of how how professional sport in the UK is out of control. Nobody attending the Dortmund v Newcastle game paid more than £20. We charge fans £24 to watch non leagiue football. And very few come.
There was a report the other day on Rugby League. Every single Superleague club loses money each year - from £600k to £2.5m each. The RFL is on deficit and can no longer justify the Big Weekend sporting event. The lower league clubs are all clinging on with their finger tips. Mazeys communication to hornets fans in recent weeks has been sobering and very clear. Rugby Union, for all its wealth is in the same position, and so is county cricket.
The sooner the Football regulator is in situ and the fans are central to the sport, it won't get any better. And there needs to be teeth too. None of the shenanigans to avoid it. Costs across the board have to be cut throughout professional sport |
I suppose that Halifax will also have banked some money for winning the FA Trophy last season.
Cup runs are even more vital at this level. I believe that Hereford received £41k in prize money for beating Dale the other week in the FA Cup which is another reason that the result was a sickener. | | | |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 13:12 - Nov 9 with 3555 views | 442Dale |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 12:24 - Nov 9 by judd |
New date set for Thursday 23rd November. The focus group meeting on 30th November will still go ahead, too. |
Cheers for the update. |  |
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| Trust meeting with BoD on 13:14 - Nov 9 with 3546 views | D_Alien |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 12:38 - Nov 9 by Plattyswrinklynuts |
Would be interesting to see the picture at the 4-5th level of German football though… The elephant in the room in this country is & has always been player wages. Good luck to anyone who suggests they take a 50% pay cut… |
Thanks. They should take a 50% pay cut
I'm not going to go into the obscenity of top level wages, from which the wages at lower levels derive, because an even greater obscenity is that directors should have to re-mortgage their family homes (yes, i have a great deal of sympathy in that regard) or fans on low incomes asked to fork out a disproportionate percentage of it to watch a game of at times very average, boring football - to help maintain that wages structure
I appreciate a lot of costs are loaded into the stadium too, but one of directors at the fans forum remarked along the lines of "we wouldn't have a problem if we didn't have to pay the players". Very tic of course, but there has to be a rebalancing down the line. The bottom line is: do footballers want to earn their living doing just that, and if so, what should be the right level of recompense, or are they prepared to do nothing and price themselves out of a job they're very lucky to be doing |  |
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| Trust meeting with BoD on 13:19 - Nov 9 with 3516 views | TVOS1907 |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 13:01 - Nov 9 by EllDale |
I suppose that Halifax will also have banked some money for winning the FA Trophy last season.
Cup runs are even more vital at this level. I believe that Hereford received £41k in prize money for beating Dale the other week in the FA Cup which is another reason that the result was a sickener. |
£41,000 is for winning in round one. Hereford got £9,375 for defeating Dale.
https://thebootroom.thefa.com/competitions/thefacup/prize-fund |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Trust meeting with BoD on 16:28 - Nov 9 with 3270 views | 49thseason |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 13:14 - Nov 9 by D_Alien |
Thanks. They should take a 50% pay cut
I'm not going to go into the obscenity of top level wages, from which the wages at lower levels derive, because an even greater obscenity is that directors should have to re-mortgage their family homes (yes, i have a great deal of sympathy in that regard) or fans on low incomes asked to fork out a disproportionate percentage of it to watch a game of at times very average, boring football - to help maintain that wages structure
I appreciate a lot of costs are loaded into the stadium too, but one of directors at the fans forum remarked along the lines of "we wouldn't have a problem if we didn't have to pay the players". Very tic of course, but there has to be a rebalancing down the line. The bottom line is: do footballers want to earn their living doing just that, and if so, what should be the right level of recompense, or are they prepared to do nothing and price themselves out of a job they're very lucky to be doing |
The Premiership is part of the wages problem in the lower leagues. They hoover up 1000s of the best youngsters, pay them silly money and them cast 99% of them adrift to find other clubs. Which of these kids is going to willingly accept a massive pay cut to continue their career at another club, especially when there always seem to be clubs prepared to risk their existance on a desperate promotion bid ? Equally when a lower league club finds a gem the clubs higher up will always attempt to prise them away with big money wage offers and derisory offers to the club that has brought them to,the point of being saleable. Its a rigged game and clubs like ours are the victims. |  | | |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 17:27 - Nov 9 with 3177 views | blackdogblue |
A lot of posts talking about Fans Engagement but none I read on this point…
The link above gives the actual output of the Fair Game review for last season (2022/23).
In the opinion of Fair Game, Rochdale were deemed:
* 6th best in League 2 for Financial Sustainability
6th best? How the fook can we be sustainable? |  |
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| Trust meeting with BoD on 12:57 - Nov 10 with 2560 views | Dale_4_Life |
Do the Trust know exactly what the monthly losses are?
More importantly is there a plan beyond the difficult to find investor to reverse the trend?
If it is not stopped there is only one heart breaking outcome. | | | |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 13:12 - Nov 10 with 2515 views | D_Alien |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 12:57 - Nov 10 by Dale_4_Life |
Do the Trust know exactly what the monthly losses are?
More importantly is there a plan beyond the difficult to find investor to reverse the trend?
If it is not stopped there is only one heart breaking outcome. |
It's my understanding that the Trust meeting with the BoD was, in addition to posing questions put by Trust members, intended to try to establish what the monthly losses are, with regular updates. This has been put back for no apparently good reason. Having a conversation with prospective investors - which happened instead - would also be better informed with this financial information
That would be a necessary first step to exploring what plans might be commenced if an investor isn't found | |
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| Trust meeting with BoD on 16:12 - Nov 10 with 2299 views | Dale_4_Life |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 13:12 - Nov 10 by D_Alien |
It's my understanding that the Trust meeting with the BoD was, in addition to posing questions put by Trust members, intended to try to establish what the monthly losses are, with regular updates. This has been put back for no apparently good reason. Having a conversation with prospective investors - which happened instead - would also be better informed with this financial information
That would be a necessary first step to exploring what plans might be commenced if an investor isn't found |
100% agree. | | | |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 19:37 - Nov 12 with 1605 views | RAFCBLUE |
Interesting that National League rules actually prevent a secured loan from being taken from individuals, so despite shareholder approval it's not been utilised. |  |
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| Trust meeting with BoD on 19:44 - Nov 12 with 1582 views | D_Alien |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 19:37 - Nov 12 by RAFCBLUE |
Interesting that National League rules actually prevent a secured loan from being taken from individuals, so despite shareholder approval it's not been utilised. |
What's even more interesting is that the NL rules preventing the utilisation of this loan being taken up should've been informed to shareholders when it became apparent; those shareholders, for instance, who the club deigned to contact and who were therefore able to attend the meeting where the vote to accept the loan proposal was passed
By Christ, it shouldn't have to be dragged out of them by the Trust asking questions on behalf of its members
[Post edited 12 Nov 2023 19:49]
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| Trust meeting with BoD on 19:50 - Nov 12 with 1556 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 19:44 - Nov 12 by D_Alien |
What's even more interesting is that the NL rules preventing the utilisation of this loan being taken up should've been informed to shareholders when it became apparent; those shareholders, for instance, who the club deigned to contact and who were therefore able to attend the meeting where the vote to accept the loan proposal was passed
By Christ, it shouldn't have to be dragged out of them by the Trust asking questions on behalf of its members
[Post edited 12 Nov 2023 19:49]
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Not quite DA.
The National League rules require their sanction, which was withheld.
Other National League clubs have done this but they said no in our specific case.
did not grant permission for it to be taken on a secured basis (despite other clubs within The National League entering into secured loans as recently as September 2023).
So you can't ask the National League unless you have shareholder approval, but you can't take the loan unless they say yes. | |
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| Trust meeting with BoD on 19:58 - Nov 12 with 1534 views | Dalenet |
Well we know that the loan hasn't been taken and the NL didn't approve it as a secured loan. So the club is running without it. How long for? Is an external investor absolutely critical to us surviving this season now? One for next week. All seems a bit desperate. | | | |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 20:20 - Nov 12 with 1499 views | 442Dale |
| Trust meeting with BoD on 19:50 - Nov 12 by RAFCBLUE |
Not quite DA.
The National League rules require their sanction, which was withheld.
Other National League clubs have done this but they said no in our specific case.
did not grant permission for it to be taken on a secured basis (despite other clubs within The National League entering into secured loans as recently as September 2023).
So you can't ask the National League unless you have shareholder approval, but you can't take the loan unless they say yes. |
Where was it stated a club cannot ask whether such a loan would be approved by the National League before a vote is put to shareholders?
How do we know the full details of what other clubs did and how can they be compared to our case?
Should the vote now be put to shareholders again?
Certainly, along with those already noted in this thread, further questions for the Trust to follow up with when they have their meeting.
For reference, a reminder of the following information provided ahead of the shareholder vote:
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2023/july/simongaugerichardknightmessage_2507 | |
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