| Shares 22:35 - Jun 19 with 4423 views | Tappers |
We all know the new board wants fans to buy shares so whos in and how much you think we need ,not sure how much we need to have any say [Post edited 19 Jun 2021 22:39]
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| Shares on 22:52 - Jun 19 with 4358 views | James1980 |
Over 90% said they would purchase shares. | |
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| Shares on 00:17 - Jun 20 with 4235 views | 49thseason |
I think there are plenty of people who will buy some shares if they are in sensibly sized blocks depending on what the price is. I think £6 each is a bit steep and it would be interesting to know what price the newcomers to the board are paying. If its £2 then blocks of 50 shares would seem sensible.
I also think the Trust need to prepare for this by asking the people who buy the new shares to register them with the trust to avoid the work they have recently done to find shareholders should the need ever arise again. They might also ask people to put the donation of their shares to the trust in their wills if they do not have relatives who would be interested to own them. At least then they would continue to be active shares working for the benefit of the club and not forgotten in a drawer. |  | | |
| Shares on 09:54 - Jun 20 with 3966 views | boromat |
Lots of balancing acts I should imagine when coming up with a price, quantity and how to qualify. Don't envy them as you'll never please everyone. I'm just glad they're taking the recent fan involvement to give it a go and offer shares to the fan base. Lets see how much we can raise. | |
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| Shares on 09:56 - Jun 20 with 3963 views | electricblue |
| Shares on 22:52 - Jun 19 by James1980 |
Over 90% said they would purchase shares. |
Is there an actual figure of who voted yes!
If there is almost 400k in shares its going to take quite a lot of buyers to reach the £1m figure...... |  |
| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| Shares on 11:00 - Jun 20 with 3869 views | ncfc_chalky |
| Shares on 09:56 - Jun 20 by electricblue |
Is there an actual figure of who voted yes!
If there is almost 400k in shares its going to take quite a lot of buyers to reach the £1m figure...... |
If you touch the pie ^^^ it says 55 Yes and 5 No but not everyone who would be willing to buy shares post on here so I would imagine the actual number to be higher |  |
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| Shares on 12:06 - Jun 20 with 3754 views | Dalenet |
| Shares on 11:00 - Jun 20 by ncfc_chalky |
If you touch the pie ^^^ it says 55 Yes and 5 No but not everyone who would be willing to buy shares post on here so I would imagine the actual number to be higher |
We've been here before. R17ale will remember the details. but we were offered shares around 13 years ago when Chris was a newish Chairman. The take up was very low. They offered the shareholders access to a Shareholders annual event (dinner or something) but not sure whether that has ever been a motivating factor.
Yes things have changed and if the new board are clear about the forward plans, the state the club is in, and offers new shares to existing shareholders and fans on a consistent price basis I am sure take up will be higher. Will we get lots of fans having a punt with a small sum (say £100) or will we see a smaller number of fans prepared to put £1000+ in? I have no idea. But the cost of delivering a share scheme means it has to be worth the club's while. Surely there is no point in doing this unless a couple of million could be raised. Maybe it could be a share offer, with a top up bond deal for those prepared to offer more, repaid over 10 years? The Board need to be creative in what could be a once in a generation opportunity to engage the fan base for the good of the club. [Post edited 20 Jun 2021 12:19]
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| Shares on 13:35 - Jun 20 with 3607 views | Shun |
| Shares on 11:00 - Jun 20 by ncfc_chalky |
If you touch the pie ^^^ it says 55 Yes and 5 No but not everyone who would be willing to buy shares post on here so I would imagine the actual number to be higher |
We don’t want to know about your pie-touching habits, chalky!
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| Shares on 13:46 - Jun 20 with 3592 views | ncfc_chalky |
Out of interest,if somebody bought 200 shares at £3 each would £600 be the amount that they paid or would there be other add ones? | |
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| Shares on 15:29 - Jun 20 with 3478 views | 49thseason |
That would be it unless the club makes some sort of charge for adding you to the Shareholders register (probably won't). You should receive a shares certificate. If they were smart they would get some fancy certificates printed so that you could frame it and hang it in the loo or your shed and maybe charge a couple of quid for that, but there shouldn't be any other charges.
You can't put Private Company Shares in a stocks and shares ISA so if you sold them for a profit (as if!) you will be liable for tax on the profits. | | | |
| Shares on 18:15 - Jun 20 with 3315 views | James1980 |
Club could put out a message asking supporters to pledge what they would be willing to 'invest' | |
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| Shares on 19:14 - Jun 20 with 3236 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Shares on 12:06 - Jun 20 by Dalenet |
We've been here before. R17ale will remember the details. but we were offered shares around 13 years ago when Chris was a newish Chairman. The take up was very low. They offered the shareholders access to a Shareholders annual event (dinner or something) but not sure whether that has ever been a motivating factor.
Yes things have changed and if the new board are clear about the forward plans, the state the club is in, and offers new shares to existing shareholders and fans on a consistent price basis I am sure take up will be higher. Will we get lots of fans having a punt with a small sum (say £100) or will we see a smaller number of fans prepared to put £1000+ in? I have no idea. But the cost of delivering a share scheme means it has to be worth the club's while. Surely there is no point in doing this unless a couple of million could be raised. Maybe it could be a share offer, with a top up bond deal for those prepared to offer more, repaid over 10 years? The Board need to be creative in what could be a once in a generation opportunity to engage the fan base for the good of the club. [Post edited 20 Jun 2021 12:19]
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Lots of good options for the club and it will take some time for the best ones to be thought through.
First - and easiest - the club have 397,042 shares that they can issue right now with first option going to existing shareholders (called pre-emption). If you pick a price (say £2) that raises nearly £0.8m quickly. Any shares that are not taken by current shareholders can be offered to new shareholders.
Second - and moderately easy - the club have the right to issue cumulative preference shares which last for three years and the club cannot issue more cumulative preference shares than ordinary shares. If they did that first step they could issue up to 899,999 preference shares at again say £2. That could raise £1.8m.
Third - as was floated at the EGM - the club can come back to try and increase the number of shares above the number currently is issue. That would increase the amount able to be raised.
A combination of ordinary and preference shares would raise up to £2.6m; though the latter would have to be repaid or rolled over after three years.
It certainly would help the cashflow of the club and the Directors are in complete control of both - to both new and existing shareholders. |  |
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| Shares on 13:42 - Jun 21 with 2842 views | 49thseason |
RAFCBLUE. The preference shares would seem to be an atractive proposition even if they only paid 1 or 2% ( although 5% would be better) . Is there any reason why you suggest 3 years ? Is it something in the articles? Also I believe Prefs could be converted into ordinary shares at some point ( presumeably rather than repay them at the end of their lifespan). This would be handy to RAFC as many might be minded to buy the prefs on the basis of a "coupon" payable over 10 or 15 years ( to perhaps offset season ticket costs) and then convert to ordinary shares to maintain their investment in the club. I also believe their can be Directors discretions on payment of the "coupon" if the club ran into difficulties. Ideally, i guess some of the income from a prefs issue could be banked long term to help pay the coupon . A bit of inflation and "hey presto" the club would make more than the annual outgoings!
Maybe the Governance issues the board want to address includes updating sections of the Articles with respect to shares and types of shares they can issue easily? The fact that prefs tend to be non voting shares also protects existing shareholders from immediate dilution o their shareholdings. | | | |
| Shares on 18:27 - Jun 21 with 2647 views | boromat |
Not sure if it's an option but something where you hold onto the shares for a certain amount of time to claim additional shares. The thinking being that we don't really want private sales going on however unlikely and it may put off other 'investors'. There may also be an option that allows the purchase of shares over the next few seasons.
Sign up to buy X amount of shares every year for 3 years at say £3 (slightly inflated price for example). On year 4 receive a share for every 3 shares you own.
Not sure if that is possible but similar schemes do exist in some companies usually for their employees. | |
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| Shares on 18:42 - Jun 21 with 2619 views | 49thseason |
| Shares on 18:27 - Jun 21 by boromat |
Not sure if it's an option but something where you hold onto the shares for a certain amount of time to claim additional shares. The thinking being that we don't really want private sales going on however unlikely and it may put off other 'investors'. There may also be an option that allows the purchase of shares over the next few seasons.
Sign up to buy X amount of shares every year for 3 years at say £3 (slightly inflated price for example). On year 4 receive a share for every 3 shares you own.
Not sure if that is possible but similar schemes do exist in some companies usually for their employees. |
I think they would be share options, whereby you are given an '"option" to buy shares at a fixed price before, on or after a certain date if you are still employed by the company. They can be life changing if you get into a new company early and it does well. I'm uncertain how something like this would work from a retail perspective in a business that is privately held and not quoted on any stock market as there is no actual share price as decided by monitoring buys and sells. | | | |
| Shares on 18:44 - Jun 21 with 2618 views | James1980 |
Club and trust could both set up 'Shares@' email addresses for people to express an interest and how much they would be willing to 'invest'. | |
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| Shares on 18:49 - Jun 21 with 2609 views | 49thseason |
I think we need a bit more information first but its not a bad idea in due course. Once we know what sort of share and how much, people can start to figure out how many they can afford. | | | |
| Shares on 19:02 - Jun 21 with 2583 views | James1980 |
| Shares on 18:49 - Jun 21 by 49thseason |
I think we need a bit more information first but its not a bad idea in due course. Once we know what sort of share and how much, people can start to figure out how many they can afford. |
Was thinking it might help in the decision making process. Perhaps the trust could do a survey relating to shares and pass info on to the board. | |
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| Shares on 22:43 - Jun 21 with 2425 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Shares on 13:42 - Jun 21 by 49thseason |
RAFCBLUE. The preference shares would seem to be an atractive proposition even if they only paid 1 or 2% ( although 5% would be better) . Is there any reason why you suggest 3 years ? Is it something in the articles? Also I believe Prefs could be converted into ordinary shares at some point ( presumeably rather than repay them at the end of their lifespan). This would be handy to RAFC as many might be minded to buy the prefs on the basis of a "coupon" payable over 10 or 15 years ( to perhaps offset season ticket costs) and then convert to ordinary shares to maintain their investment in the club. I also believe their can be Directors discretions on payment of the "coupon" if the club ran into difficulties. Ideally, i guess some of the income from a prefs issue could be banked long term to help pay the coupon . A bit of inflation and "hey presto" the club would make more than the annual outgoings!
Maybe the Governance issues the board want to address includes updating sections of the Articles with respect to shares and types of shares they can issue easily? The fact that prefs tend to be non voting shares also protects existing shareholders from immediate dilution o their shareholdings. |
Hi 49th,
3 year preference shares comes from the Articles of Association, but with a bit of clever timing and accounting you could get them done and in place so that they mature at the end of the 2023/24 season.
The coupon is also limited by the Articles of Association but this is still well above Bank of England base rate! How they are dealt with on redemption is usually as follows:
1) Capital plus interest repaid in full
2) Capital rolled over for a further three years but interest only paid.
3) Conversion into shares
The target audience would be fans who want a fixed return on their money. They do not have any voting rights unlike ordinary shares.
Updating Articles of Association will require shareholder approval. There is nothing wrong with the Articles and one could argue that it is their strength from 1907 that allowed the Trust to proposed and democratically remove two Directors.
Capital raising is the hardest of tasks but there is a lot of scope for opportunity here and the key will be tapping into that and taking shareholders (ordinary and possibly preference) on the journey of sharing information and not being viewed as a pain in the backside to be endured and not consulted.
Hope that makes sense. | |
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| Shares on 00:08 - Jun 22 with 2335 views | 49thseason |
| Shares on 22:43 - Jun 21 by RAFCBLUE |
Hi 49th,
3 year preference shares comes from the Articles of Association, but with a bit of clever timing and accounting you could get them done and in place so that they mature at the end of the 2023/24 season.
The coupon is also limited by the Articles of Association but this is still well above Bank of England base rate! How they are dealt with on redemption is usually as follows:
1) Capital plus interest repaid in full
2) Capital rolled over for a further three years but interest only paid.
3) Conversion into shares
The target audience would be fans who want a fixed return on their money. They do not have any voting rights unlike ordinary shares.
Updating Articles of Association will require shareholder approval. There is nothing wrong with the Articles and one could argue that it is their strength from 1907 that allowed the Trust to proposed and democratically remove two Directors.
Capital raising is the hardest of tasks but there is a lot of scope for opportunity here and the key will be tapping into that and taking shareholders (ordinary and possibly preference) on the journey of sharing information and not being viewed as a pain in the backside to be endured and not consulted.
Hope that makes sense. |
Excellent, thankyou. I imagine a pref offer might attact a wider audience than just Dale fans. And the option to convert to Ordinary shares or roll over would save some of the repayment costs. I agree there is an attraction in the 1907 Articles for their lack of flexibility but there are are few areas that must need updating to permit some ingress of the 21st Century too.
I actually have a poor photocopy of the Articles as a pdf but its a tough read so apologies for asking a question I might have figured out for myself. | | | |
| Shares on 07:02 - Jun 22 with 2227 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Shares on 00:08 - Jun 22 by 49thseason |
Excellent, thankyou. I imagine a pref offer might attact a wider audience than just Dale fans. And the option to convert to Ordinary shares or roll over would save some of the repayment costs. I agree there is an attraction in the 1907 Articles for their lack of flexibility but there are are few areas that must need updating to permit some ingress of the 21st Century too.
I actually have a poor photocopy of the Articles as a pdf but its a tough read so apologies for asking a question I might have figured out for myself. |
No worries, 49th.
There is a limit to the number of preference shares that can be issued and I would expect that any Board would be minded about the refinancing of those in three years time. As I said in the last post, with a bit of creativity you could create something very valuable that has never been tapped into.
You're right about ingress into the 21st Century but at the moment the Articles are the least of the Board's worry and the Articles are the shareholder's primary protection so a lot of credit goes to the club's founders that they set up those protections from the outset. | |
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