| Tier 2 / Tier 3 13:15 - Oct 15 with 34983 views | aleanddale |
Matt Hancock hitting a new level of incompetence today in the commons.
Press leaks prior to confirmation with local authority.... then backtracking.
Dithering over a statement on Manchester and Lancashire regarding if and when we will move to tier 3.
No doubt the whole thing is complicated beyond belief BUT there should be much clearer / decisive communication and direction from the government.
Staff on minimum wage will be getting 2/3 or just over £5 an hour on this latest job support scheme that's replacing furlough. Minimum wage is just that the minimum required to survive.
Liverpool the ONLY city on tier 3. Honestly?
Ignoring the "Science" when the science advised a NATIONAL circuit break 3 weeks ago.
My two penneth is that this is set for the long term. I read an article saying the average life expectancy is 81 and the average Covid death age is 82. It is a very very tough decision to make i do understand that but everyone knows this and the day could arrive where shielding becomes self governing and everyone makes there own choices. Maybe new Covid Laws need to be applied to allow the nation to do that and the obvious rule breakers can be hit with more severe penalty.
This is one mighty mess and the problem is that the master plan is falling well short its time for a rethink and quickly. |  | | |  |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 08:40 - Oct 16 with 2710 views | isitme |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 22:21 - Oct 15 by rochdaleriddler |
Liverpool hospitals intensive care units are nearly full, with Covid as the reason, not a broken leg. The ‘lockdown’ earlier this year did bring numbers down ( with the weather helping). That was the time to sort out testing and track and trace, that hasn’t happened and here we are again. However Bolton has had a lockdown of sorts recently, and it hasn’t sorted their infection rates out. It’s a total mess, not sure where we go from here, but enforcement against people breaking the rules on distancing would be a start |
Okay, let's go back to my broken leg analogy. A 'Covid Patient' is anyone in hospital who has tested positive for it within the past 28 days. If a hospital announced that they current have 400 Covid patients it is a big headline figure but how many have actually been admitted due to Covid? Somebody tests positive three weeks ago, is deemed to have 'recovered' breaks their leg or hip and that is why they are admitted to hospital they are classed as a Covid patient, but they are not being treated for a Covid related issue. As twenty percent of all transmissions are within a hospital setting someone who is admitted due to a kidney related issue who subsequently tests positive for Covid in hospital is a Covid patient, although they have not been admitted due to Covid. Take the original 400 Covid patients figure, how many are what most people would class as being an actual 'Covid Patient'? Extrapolate the over counting across the country and the figures of 'Covid Patients' are not as high as reported.
In terms of NHS stats this is a good place to look https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/healthcare
Now people will cherry pick stats to suit their own narratives, but these are figures from the NHS. Some will quote increases in cases and hospital admissions as a reason for further lockdowns. Others will quote deaths due to Covid compared to other causes of death, the Covid infection fatality rate of 0.03%, which is even lower for those under 60 without at least one pre existing condition or the fact that 87% of positive tests are for people without symptoms. Others will even cite the problems with the PCR test and the issues with widespread testing of asymptomatics or socioeconomic factors.
Respiratory related infections and associated deaths always fall in the spring and summer and rise in autumn and winter regardless of lockdowns. Some would argue that the 'lockdown' after the three weeks to protect the NHS delayed the inevitable and prevented the acquisition of greater immunity within the community. Some cite London's lower current figures compared to areas of the country who now have many more cases than in the spring/summer. A lockdown now may kick the can down the road, but at what cost?
Can Track and Trace ever be sorted out? It is not working well in France either. Personally the technology is not good enough for it to be accurate enough and many people are reluctant to install and use the app. Police officers, teachers etc in certain areas are being told not to use the app.
You make a good point about the lockdown measures in Bolton and the rest of Greater Manchester to reduce the spread, but these have not worked. Wide scale testing of people without symptoms has not helped infection rates. Greater enforcement is something to consider, but how can it be done? There are not enough police to go round to every house where people are meeting 'illegally'. With the onset of winter and the lack of availability of other leisure facilities people will meet up in houses. In many cases you cannot blame them. They have lockdown fatigue and are in a cycle of getting up, going to work, paying their taxes and having no life. That is why I do not blame what some would class as 'irresponsible behaviour' of one of my neighbours. |  | | |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 10:34 - Oct 16 with 2595 views | isitme |
An interesting read from someone with gravitas (although some will probably look at the URL and dismiss it out of hand without reading it).
https://lockdownsceptics.org/what-sage-got-wrong/
Another 'questionable source' but interesting nonetheless. Have a look at the full chain of tweets.
Some more
[Post edited 16 Oct 2020 11:55]
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 11:54 - Oct 16 with 2501 views | D_Alien |
Related to the above posts by isitme, what i'm finding fascinating in the 'standoff' between Andy Burnham and national government is that in effect, he's the one using Greater Manchester as the 'canary in the mine' by keeping its citizens (us) in a lower state of lockdown than current national guidance suggests is warranted
Yes, he wants a 'circuit-breaker' lockdown, with increased financial support to go with it, with the implicit suggestion that the record £2t debt the government has had to get us into to finance the measures to date is insufficient, whether we go into full lockdown or Tier 3. There is no mention of how long any new financial measures should remain in place, should the 'circuit-breaker' fail to have the desired effect. The virus will remain in wait for the circuit to return of course, and as i asked earlier in the thread - what then?
So how is this related to isitme's posts? Well, let's see if the increase in our Covid numbers translates into the much higher hospital admissions / patients in ICU beds / Covid deaths. Thanks to Andy, we could be about to find out
Good luck everyone, and keep your own balance of risks under constant review |  |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 12:11 - Oct 16 with 2460 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 11:54 - Oct 16 by D_Alien |
Related to the above posts by isitme, what i'm finding fascinating in the 'standoff' between Andy Burnham and national government is that in effect, he's the one using Greater Manchester as the 'canary in the mine' by keeping its citizens (us) in a lower state of lockdown than current national guidance suggests is warranted
Yes, he wants a 'circuit-breaker' lockdown, with increased financial support to go with it, with the implicit suggestion that the record £2t debt the government has had to get us into to finance the measures to date is insufficient, whether we go into full lockdown or Tier 3. There is no mention of how long any new financial measures should remain in place, should the 'circuit-breaker' fail to have the desired effect. The virus will remain in wait for the circuit to return of course, and as i asked earlier in the thread - what then?
So how is this related to isitme's posts? Well, let's see if the increase in our Covid numbers translates into the much higher hospital admissions / patients in ICU beds / Covid deaths. Thanks to Andy, we could be about to find out
Good luck everyone, and keep your own balance of risks under constant review |
So not taking the sage advice nearly a month ago isn’t risking our health, but Andy Burnham holding things up while he argues about lack of local involvement , and the lack of clarity and financial support will . That is a good one. Perhaps if we had done this properly and not given money to shysters armed with snake oil , we would be in a much better place now. I’m not arguing that I know what the answer is, but making cheap political points in support of the most inept govt in memory is breathtaking. |  |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 12:17 - Oct 16 with 2455 views | D_Alien |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 12:11 - Oct 16 by rochdaleriddler |
So not taking the sage advice nearly a month ago isn’t risking our health, but Andy Burnham holding things up while he argues about lack of local involvement , and the lack of clarity and financial support will . That is a good one. Perhaps if we had done this properly and not given money to shysters armed with snake oil , we would be in a much better place now. I’m not arguing that I know what the answer is, but making cheap political points in support of the most inept govt in memory is breathtaking. |
Not taking the Sage advice was based upon balancing that advice against many other health (physical & mental) social & economic harms, which has been the case since the outbreak of the disease
You know that as well as anyone. Stop trying to score political points; i'm not | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 12:25 - Oct 16 with 2429 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 12:17 - Oct 16 by D_Alien |
Not taking the Sage advice was based upon balancing that advice against many other health (physical & mental) social & economic harms, which has been the case since the outbreak of the disease
You know that as well as anyone. Stop trying to score political points; i'm not |
Good one, North west Tory MP’s were the ones savaging Helen Whately yesterday. | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 12:27 - Oct 16 with 2427 views | D_Alien |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 12:25 - Oct 16 by rochdaleriddler |
Good one, North west Tory MP’s were the ones savaging Helen Whately yesterday. |
Riddler, this thread was proceeding very nicely, everyone making their respective points with due respect even where disagreement was evident, until your rabid intervention in the previous post
Please desist, for all our sakes | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 12:28 - Oct 16 with 2422 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 11:54 - Oct 16 by D_Alien |
Related to the above posts by isitme, what i'm finding fascinating in the 'standoff' between Andy Burnham and national government is that in effect, he's the one using Greater Manchester as the 'canary in the mine' by keeping its citizens (us) in a lower state of lockdown than current national guidance suggests is warranted
Yes, he wants a 'circuit-breaker' lockdown, with increased financial support to go with it, with the implicit suggestion that the record £2t debt the government has had to get us into to finance the measures to date is insufficient, whether we go into full lockdown or Tier 3. There is no mention of how long any new financial measures should remain in place, should the 'circuit-breaker' fail to have the desired effect. The virus will remain in wait for the circuit to return of course, and as i asked earlier in the thread - what then?
So how is this related to isitme's posts? Well, let's see if the increase in our Covid numbers translates into the much higher hospital admissions / patients in ICU beds / Covid deaths. Thanks to Andy, we could be about to find out
Good luck everyone, and keep your own balance of risks under constant review |
The argument that Burnham is making though is that if certain businesses and employees don’t receive adequate financial support through a lockdown then, should they go to the wall/be made redundant, the costs to the government and the government’s debt burden will be exponentially higher in the long run. There’s a very good argument for that.
Also, if tier 3 does come in and there’s an increase in hospital admissions and deaths, will that be thanks to Boris? | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 12:43 - Oct 16 with 2400 views | pioneer |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 07:42 - Oct 16 by tony_roch975 |
Not sure that's fair - lots of TV, radio & press coverage since the Summer has focussed on how the new private sector centralised Test, Trace & Isolate system is having problems largely because it ignores the existing Local Govt Public Health set up - ideology ruling over quality. Indeed it's one of the things the Metro Mayors have been arguing for. |
but did they identify the conflicts of interest in contracting out? I havent seem anything on this before. | | | |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 12:44 - Oct 16 with 2392 views | D_Alien |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 12:28 - Oct 16 by BigDaveMyCock |
The argument that Burnham is making though is that if certain businesses and employees don’t receive adequate financial support through a lockdown then, should they go to the wall/be made redundant, the costs to the government and the government’s debt burden will be exponentially higher in the long run. There’s a very good argument for that.
Also, if tier 3 does come in and there’s an increase in hospital admissions and deaths, will that be thanks to Boris? |
Fair points. I think the packages of financial support that've been forthcoming to date have themselves been an attempt to balance the costs of losing those businesses against the mounting burden of debt. I note the leaders of Lancashire councils have been able to negotiate an increased sum in support of their businesses. I hope we in Greater Manchester have local leadership that is able to do the same
Regarding Tier 3, it's not a panacea for the virus, but again, an attempt to balance the risks of increasing morbidity/mortality against many other factors. It's not a call i'd want to have to make. I was simply pointing out that our local leader(s) take a different view and we'll see how that pans out, unless an agreement around entering Tier 3 can be made
[Post edited 16 Oct 2020 12:45]
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 13:06 - Oct 16 with 2348 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 12:27 - Oct 16 by D_Alien |
Riddler, this thread was proceeding very nicely, everyone making their respective points with due respect even where disagreement was evident, until your rabid intervention in the previous post
Please desist, for all our sakes |
I’ll desist only because it’s pointless arguing with someone so entrenched in their views. I do agree that everyone should just follow their own instincts and judgements and keep safe | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 14:01 - Oct 16 with 2240 views | rochdaleriddler |
Stop being factual | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 14:31 - Oct 16 with 2208 views | isitme |
If you look at the image embedded into the tweet from 'Brixton_Ben' the source is the ONS, the same source you have just linked to! It is good to see him following your advice. [Post edited 16 Oct 2020 14:33]
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 14:31 - Oct 16 with 2206 views | isitme |
Who Brixton_Ben, Dave, ONS or all of them? [Post edited 16 Oct 2020 14:34]
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 14:32 - Oct 16 with 2203 views | James1980 |
Some people aren't interested in so called facts. | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 14:43 - Oct 16 with 2170 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 14:31 - Oct 16 by isitme |
If you look at the image embedded into the tweet from 'Brixton_Ben' the source is the ONS, the same source you have just linked to! It is good to see him following your advice. [Post edited 16 Oct 2020 14:33]
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Psssst, why do you think I posted the link to the ONS? | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 14:46 - Oct 16 with 2154 views | D_Alien |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 13:06 - Oct 16 by rochdaleriddler |
I’ll desist only because it’s pointless arguing with someone so entrenched in their views. I do agree that everyone should just follow their own instincts and judgements and keep safe |
You'll have no need to desist if you simply engage with the issues rather than the person
Hope that helps | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:05 - Oct 16 with 2117 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 14:46 - Oct 16 by D_Alien |
You'll have no need to desist if you simply engage with the issues rather than the person
Hope that helps |
It doesn’t , it’s the moderators job to police this page, if that helps. | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:24 - Oct 16 with 2077 views | D_Alien |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:05 - Oct 16 by rochdaleriddler |
It doesn’t , it’s the moderators job to police this page, if that helps. |
I suspect the mods would much rather we self-policed
You're welcome | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:43 - Oct 16 with 2049 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:24 - Oct 16 by D_Alien |
I suspect the mods would much rather we self-policed
You're welcome |
You suspect right. |  |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 16:23 - Oct 16 with 1984 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:24 - Oct 16 by D_Alien |
I suspect the mods would much rather we self-policed
You're welcome |
I bet your truncheon is never out of your hands | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 18:10 - Oct 16 with 1919 views | rochdaleriddler |
Gyms in Liverpool shut, those in Lancashire stay open. | |
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