| Welcome todayistheday 17:01 - Dec 26 with 2882 views | janegallagher |
Good to see you on here 👠|  |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 17:29 - Dec 26 with 1910 views | todayistheday |
Must say I've been trying to contact fansonline regarding my bans,at least 50 emails to them and avftt,had no response from them and its been two/three weeks of trying. Cant even register todayistheday2 as you get a blank activation page on there.
Been looking on here for a week or two and its getting more hits,thanks for the welcome.👠|  | | |
| Welcome todayistheday on 19:26 - Dec 26 with 1878 views | stu |
| Welcome todayistheday on 17:36 - Dec 26 by janegallagher |
A lot more pleasant over here today, you’ll enjoy it. 👠|
Yep welcome to the clique titd. Oops I mean forum 😊
This banning malarkey seems a common theme. |  |
| Tangerine is the new black |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 19:39 - Dec 26 with 1872 views | Imperial |
| Welcome todayistheday on 19:26 - Dec 26 by stu |
Yep welcome to the clique titd. Oops I mean forum 😊
This banning malarkey seems a common theme. |
I wondered what happened to you on the other site. It's not true that you had multiple user names then. | | | |
| Welcome todayistheday on 21:17 - Dec 26 with 1856 views | todayistheday |
| Welcome todayistheday on 19:39 - Dec 26 by Imperial |
I wondered what happened to you on the other site. It's not true that you had multiple user names then. |
todayistheday banned,then tommytommygun banned and then my last one tomtomgun banned,never used them at the same time. They thought I was many people over the years but I'm just a normal guy from FY2. 😠| | | |
| Welcome todayistheday on 00:04 - Dec 27 with 1842 views | Hannibal |
| Welcome todayistheday on 21:17 - Dec 26 by todayistheday |
todayistheday banned,then tommytommygun banned and then my last one tomtomgun banned,never used them at the same time. They thought I was many people over the years but I'm just a normal guy from FY2. 😠|
Welcome!
Banned from AVFTT? No response to attempts to contact?
Surely not ha ha! | |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 10:13 - Dec 27 with 1828 views | janegallagher |
| Welcome todayistheday on 00:04 - Dec 27 by Hannibal |
Welcome!
Banned from AVFTT? No response to attempts to contact?
Surely not ha ha! |
Think you two can compare notes. Don’t forget a different opinion not tolerated over there | |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 10:18 - Dec 27 with 1827 views | Lala |
| Welcome todayistheday on 10:13 - Dec 27 by janegallagher |
Think you two can compare notes. Don’t forget a different opinion not tolerated over there |
In my humble opinion Titd is anti Oyston but not a sheep and would happily say if he thought one of the populists were spouting crap.
That automatically makes you a multi username WUM, apparently. |  |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 10:21 - Dec 27 with 1825 views | janegallagher |
| Welcome todayistheday on 10:18 - Dec 27 by Lala |
In my humble opinion Titd is anti Oyston but not a sheep and would happily say if he thought one of the populists were spouting crap.
That automatically makes you a multi username WUM, apparently. |
Erm same here except in my case I was a fella
😂😂 | |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 17:18 - Dec 27 with 1785 views | stu |
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| Tangerine is the new black |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 17:24 - Dec 27 with 1778 views | Hannibal |
Oh you are no angel BRR. Don’t be coy. If you would like to add something to this board of value then please do. Perhaps you could expand upon you reasoning for banning me? On another note I seriously hope you have no influence on this board as you do on the other.
Speak! | |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 18:43 - Dec 27 with 1762 views | basilrobbiereborn |
| Welcome todayistheday on 17:24 - Dec 27 by Hannibal |
Oh you are no angel BRR. Don’t be coy. If you would like to add something to this board of value then please do. Perhaps you could expand upon you reasoning for banning me? On another note I seriously hope you have no influence on this board as you do on the other.
Speak! |
1. Banning people is someone else's job these days. It's funny how we all seem to see you the same way though.
2. I'm looking forward to this blog of yours, I bet it won't be about going to football matches though.
3. I like the username, but it is a bit of a mouthful. Do you mind if I call you "Al" for short? | |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 21:47 - Dec 27 with 1735 views | todayistheday |
| Welcome todayistheday on 18:43 - Dec 27 by basilrobbiereborn |
1. Banning people is someone else's job these days. It's funny how we all seem to see you the same way though.
2. I'm looking forward to this blog of yours, I bet it won't be about going to football matches though.
3. I like the username, but it is a bit of a mouthful. Do you mind if I call you "Al" for short? |
What I cant understand is why the moderator or avftt feel the need to ban people. Seems they are taking the same stance as the posters who say I'm a invisible coward. The same people who claim to be staunch napm but dont seem to travel to away games,I think most follow suit on there and just humour eachother with Oyston verbals. Then theres a small bunch who I respect for travelling to away games,wizzard,even you brr,insider(who I rattle his cage regarding free tickets) ect,they seem to be the fanatical fans. Shame there's not more like them on avftt. So much to offer BFC but as we see in BST membership numbers and attendees at meetings,a certain bunch must be putting people off or people just arnt interested in the going ons. Time to sort that site out brr or jump ship.👠| | | |
| Welcome todayistheday on 01:07 - Dec 28 with 1714 views | Hannibal |
| Welcome todayistheday on 18:43 - Dec 27 by basilrobbiereborn |
1. Banning people is someone else's job these days. It's funny how we all seem to see you the same way though.
2. I'm looking forward to this blog of yours, I bet it won't be about going to football matches though.
3. I like the username, but it is a bit of a mouthful. Do you mind if I call you "Al" for short? |
‘1. Banning people is someone else's job these days. It's funny how we all seem to see you the same way though.
2. I'm looking forward to this blog of yours, I bet it won't be about going to football matches though.
3. I like the username, but it is a bit of a mouthful. Do you mind if I call you "Al" for short?’
1. Is it really? Why then do you speak as if it’s you who has been involved in the decision to ban then? If it’s not you I’m sure you have a hand in it. Who is ‘we’? We. Saying ‘we see you the same way’, whatever way that is, implies that it’s me alone being judged by ‘you and them’. Who do you think you are exactly to subjugate people on football forums you self important tosser?
2. Now I know you’re waiting with baited breath for my blog and have already decided what it won’t be about I might write one about the problems with football fans sites.
3. You can call me what you want Robert. I hope you will forgive me if I do worry about your integrity when it comes down to your apparent glee at having found out some personal information. In other words yes, I don’t trust you and I get the feeling you’re the type who has a lot of time on your hands and is essentially a nasty piece of work. [Post edited 28 Dec 2018 1:08]
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| Welcome todayistheday on 09:21 - Dec 28 with 1686 views | basilrobbiereborn |
| Welcome todayistheday on 01:07 - Dec 28 by Hannibal |
‘1. Banning people is someone else's job these days. It's funny how we all seem to see you the same way though.
2. I'm looking forward to this blog of yours, I bet it won't be about going to football matches though.
3. I like the username, but it is a bit of a mouthful. Do you mind if I call you "Al" for short?’
1. Is it really? Why then do you speak as if it’s you who has been involved in the decision to ban then? If it’s not you I’m sure you have a hand in it. Who is ‘we’? We. Saying ‘we see you the same way’, whatever way that is, implies that it’s me alone being judged by ‘you and them’. Who do you think you are exactly to subjugate people on football forums you self important tosser?
2. Now I know you’re waiting with baited breath for my blog and have already decided what it won’t be about I might write one about the problems with football fans sites.
3. You can call me what you want Robert. I hope you will forgive me if I do worry about your integrity when it comes down to your apparent glee at having found out some personal information. In other words yes, I don’t trust you and I get the feeling you’re the type who has a lot of time on your hands and is essentially a nasty piece of work. [Post edited 28 Dec 2018 1:08]
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1. It's all in your own head Hannibal. My departure from moderation duties was well publicised in 2014 and thankfully regulating the madhouse is someone else's job these days. For the record, I think FoL need to pay the site far more attention than they do - there is, for one example, one thread on there at them which has got completely out of hand. The point I was making is that your difficulties with moderators have gone on long after I left, so perhaps you are a bigger part of the problem than you are willing to concede?
2. Fair enough, you can write about whatever you like. But if you are who I THINK you are it won''t be about Blackpool FC. Or if it is, it will be written third hand. And if you are not who I think you are, who cares anyway?
3. As for integrity - I don't know for certain who you are, but from how you have replied I am assuming my educated guess is pretty close to home. It's also very cryptic and no-one is likely to glean much from it. And the name I ascribe to you goes back to when you first registered on FoL. How long ago is that - five years or maybe longer? I've never used it to embarrass you and I have no intention of starting now. That is as compared with you, who sprayed insults about me around from the minute you arrive on here with your half-baked persecution complex. You also named me as well. So I'm pretty happy about my standards as compared with yours.
Apologies to everyone else - many of you came over here to avoid this sort of exchange, and I am well aware of that. But equally I am not about to let someone I have never met publish unfounded accusations about me without challenging them. The truth of the matter is that you can't cope with any kind of challenge, can you Hannibal? | |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 09:42 - Dec 28 with 1679 views | Hannibal |
| Welcome todayistheday on 09:21 - Dec 28 by basilrobbiereborn |
1. It's all in your own head Hannibal. My departure from moderation duties was well publicised in 2014 and thankfully regulating the madhouse is someone else's job these days. For the record, I think FoL need to pay the site far more attention than they do - there is, for one example, one thread on there at them which has got completely out of hand. The point I was making is that your difficulties with moderators have gone on long after I left, so perhaps you are a bigger part of the problem than you are willing to concede?
2. Fair enough, you can write about whatever you like. But if you are who I THINK you are it won''t be about Blackpool FC. Or if it is, it will be written third hand. And if you are not who I think you are, who cares anyway?
3. As for integrity - I don't know for certain who you are, but from how you have replied I am assuming my educated guess is pretty close to home. It's also very cryptic and no-one is likely to glean much from it. And the name I ascribe to you goes back to when you first registered on FoL. How long ago is that - five years or maybe longer? I've never used it to embarrass you and I have no intention of starting now. That is as compared with you, who sprayed insults about me around from the minute you arrive on here with your half-baked persecution complex. You also named me as well. So I'm pretty happy about my standards as compared with yours.
Apologies to everyone else - many of you came over here to avoid this sort of exchange, and I am well aware of that. But equally I am not about to let someone I have never met publish unfounded accusations about me without challenging them. The truth of the matter is that you can't cope with any kind of challenge, can you Hannibal? |
‘your difficulties with moderators have gone on long after I left, so perhaps you are a bigger part of the problem than you are willing to concede?
My difficulties? Really? You are a fantasist. You believe what you want to believe I think you think everyone new who doesn’t jump on board with the collective thinking is there to destroy. Absolutely ridiculous. Anyway, if you have indeed not moderated since 2014, how do you know so much or CARE so much about my ‘difficulties’. I have a theory on this and it won’t surprise you...
It’s because you ARE and probably always have been in a position to decide who stays who goes, who gets hounded out, who gets ridiculed. You are always there lurking like a vulture waiting to feast on the scraps of someone you’ve played your part in abusing on line.
‘2. Fair enough, you can write about whatever you like. But if you are who I THINK you are it won''t be about Blackpool FC. Or if it is, it will be written third hand. And if you are not who I think you are, who cares anyway?’
Oh can I? Oh thanks really. So grateful I’m allowed. Self important tosser.
3. As for integrity - I don't know for certain who you are...
Most of your third paragraph is nonsensical paranoid guff. You are right though you don’t know for certain who I am. You’ve just made massive assumptions all the way along without proof. You or somebody you know, HAS BANNED me because I don’t put up with your shite on AVFTT.
Apologies to everyone else - many of you came over here to avoid this sort of exchange, and I am well aware of that. But equally I am not about to let someone I have never met publish unfounded accusations about me without challenging them. The truth of the matter is that you can't cope with any kind of challenge, can you Hannibal?’
You can stick your apologies up your fat arse. Half of them love you on here anyway so you’re in good company. WHY is the big question though. | |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 11:53 - Dec 28 with 1654 views | basilrobbiereborn |
| Welcome todayistheday on 09:42 - Dec 28 by Hannibal |
‘your difficulties with moderators have gone on long after I left, so perhaps you are a bigger part of the problem than you are willing to concede?
My difficulties? Really? You are a fantasist. You believe what you want to believe I think you think everyone new who doesn’t jump on board with the collective thinking is there to destroy. Absolutely ridiculous. Anyway, if you have indeed not moderated since 2014, how do you know so much or CARE so much about my ‘difficulties’. I have a theory on this and it won’t surprise you...
It’s because you ARE and probably always have been in a position to decide who stays who goes, who gets hounded out, who gets ridiculed. You are always there lurking like a vulture waiting to feast on the scraps of someone you’ve played your part in abusing on line.
‘2. Fair enough, you can write about whatever you like. But if you are who I THINK you are it won''t be about Blackpool FC. Or if it is, it will be written third hand. And if you are not who I think you are, who cares anyway?’
Oh can I? Oh thanks really. So grateful I’m allowed. Self important tosser.
3. As for integrity - I don't know for certain who you are...
Most of your third paragraph is nonsensical paranoid guff. You are right though you don’t know for certain who I am. You’ve just made massive assumptions all the way along without proof. You or somebody you know, HAS BANNED me because I don’t put up with your shite on AVFTT.
Apologies to everyone else - many of you came over here to avoid this sort of exchange, and I am well aware of that. But equally I am not about to let someone I have never met publish unfounded accusations about me without challenging them. The truth of the matter is that you can't cope with any kind of challenge, can you Hannibal?’
You can stick your apologies up your fat arse. Half of them love you on here anyway so you’re in good company. WHY is the big question though. |
The reason I know all about your difficulties is that you came over hear bleating about them, and you have done enough whingeing about a non-existent clique on AVFTT in the past.
As for your blog, I am genuinely interested to see what you come up with, as you can certainly write when you want to. Whether it will be of wider interest to a forum predominantly made up of football fans is another question, but you don't need me to tell you that.
As for the rest of it, I'm, afraid if you are determined to believe that you are the victim of a sinister plot there isn't much I can do to dissuade you. I've got far better things to do than worry about someone who doesn't really follow the club, and seems to spend his life with his face pressed to the window while he watches those of us that do.
On a more pleasant note, I gather you are moving back to the UK. I hope it goes well for you. | |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 12:53 - Dec 28 with 1645 views | Hannibal |
| Welcome todayistheday on 11:53 - Dec 28 by basilrobbiereborn |
The reason I know all about your difficulties is that you came over hear bleating about them, and you have done enough whingeing about a non-existent clique on AVFTT in the past.
As for your blog, I am genuinely interested to see what you come up with, as you can certainly write when you want to. Whether it will be of wider interest to a forum predominantly made up of football fans is another question, but you don't need me to tell you that.
As for the rest of it, I'm, afraid if you are determined to believe that you are the victim of a sinister plot there isn't much I can do to dissuade you. I've got far better things to do than worry about someone who doesn't really follow the club, and seems to spend his life with his face pressed to the window while he watches those of us that do.
On a more pleasant note, I gather you are moving back to the UK. I hope it goes well for you. |
Ok. Let’s take this step by step.
‘The reason I know all about your difficulties is that you came over hear bleating about them, and you have done enough whingeing about a non-existent clique on AVFTT in the past.’
I’m here primarily because it seems my contributions on AVFTT have been deemed worthy of being forever banned. Please enlighten me why? Did I break the board rules? I am as you know aware of them. Now, the fact you are here reading my bleating suggests you’re interested and in defending yourself against them. OR, you are genuinely innocent and you are simply defending my claims because they are unfounded. If you’re not moderating on there as such, you clearly do have influence as your non existent clique here and on there proves. You are like cancer spreading to healthy cells making them die or mutate. Dramatic maybe but true as I see it.
‘As for your blog, I am genuinely interested to see what you come up with, as you can certainly write when you want to. Whether it will be of wider interest to a forum predominantly made up of football fans is another question, but you don't need me to tell you that.’
As for my blog...yes I can string a few words together. However, as I have not duly submitted my credentials to you by some previous posts that would agree with your sensibilities, anything I may write would just be an exercise in writing for writing’s sake now so you have been successful, at this point, in stopping that from happening.
You’ve put me off. I won’t be bothering. See how you’re enhancing this site already?
‘As for the rest of it, I'm, afraid if you are determined to believe that you are the victim of a sinister plot there isn't much I can do to dissuade you. I've got far better things to do than worry about someone who doesn't really follow the club, and seems to spend his life with his face pressed to the window while he watches those of us that do.’
So tell me who moderates AVFTT then if it’s not you and I can take up the issue with the correct person? Transparency is something lacking severely on AVFTT AND ON HERE. You can’t just dismiss my assertions without providing PROOF OTHERWISE. I don’t know you although I know OF YOU and as you said you don’t know me. Why should I take your claims seriously when all the evidence suggests otherwise? There IS clearly a clique on AVFTT. There always has been and always will be and lack of transparency and YOU will ensure that continues. You have for some reason known to only yourself I think decided I’m not a fan of Blackpool FC or even a fan of football. Where do you get that from?
I’ll let you into a secret...most ‘fans’ have buggered off and are waiting for things to get fixed instead of celebrating the current long term shambles or telling people they are impatient! In strict terms you’re right I’m not a ‘fan’ AT THE MOMENT and I’m not alone. You however seem to feel the need to paint me as a nobody who knows nothing of the club and has never engaged with any of it. The truth is though I have and I will when things normalise. I don’t feel I need to berate others ‘commitment’ though in defence of my own inadequacies.
‘On a more pleasant note, I gather you are moving back to the UK. I hope it goes well for you.’
And that bit is just to show anyone on the fence that you’re actually a great guy! Which you’re not. [Post edited 28 Dec 2018 12:54]
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| Welcome todayistheday on 13:04 - Dec 28 with 1629 views | ROTTWEILERS |
| Welcome todayistheday on 12:53 - Dec 28 by Hannibal |
Ok. Let’s take this step by step.
‘The reason I know all about your difficulties is that you came over hear bleating about them, and you have done enough whingeing about a non-existent clique on AVFTT in the past.’
I’m here primarily because it seems my contributions on AVFTT have been deemed worthy of being forever banned. Please enlighten me why? Did I break the board rules? I am as you know aware of them. Now, the fact you are here reading my bleating suggests you’re interested and in defending yourself against them. OR, you are genuinely innocent and you are simply defending my claims because they are unfounded. If you’re not moderating on there as such, you clearly do have influence as your non existent clique here and on there proves. You are like cancer spreading to healthy cells making them die or mutate. Dramatic maybe but true as I see it.
‘As for your blog, I am genuinely interested to see what you come up with, as you can certainly write when you want to. Whether it will be of wider interest to a forum predominantly made up of football fans is another question, but you don't need me to tell you that.’
As for my blog...yes I can string a few words together. However, as I have not duly submitted my credentials to you by some previous posts that would agree with your sensibilities, anything I may write would just be an exercise in writing for writing’s sake now so you have been successful, at this point, in stopping that from happening.
You’ve put me off. I won’t be bothering. See how you’re enhancing this site already?
‘As for the rest of it, I'm, afraid if you are determined to believe that you are the victim of a sinister plot there isn't much I can do to dissuade you. I've got far better things to do than worry about someone who doesn't really follow the club, and seems to spend his life with his face pressed to the window while he watches those of us that do.’
So tell me who moderates AVFTT then if it’s not you and I can take up the issue with the correct person? Transparency is something lacking severely on AVFTT AND ON HERE. You can’t just dismiss my assertions without providing PROOF OTHERWISE. I don’t know you although I know OF YOU and as you said you don’t know me. Why should I take your claims seriously when all the evidence suggests otherwise? There IS clearly a clique on AVFTT. There always has been and always will be and lack of transparency and YOU will ensure that continues. You have for some reason known to only yourself I think decided I’m not a fan of Blackpool FC or even a fan of football. Where do you get that from?
I’ll let you into a secret...most ‘fans’ have buggered off and are waiting for things to get fixed instead of celebrating the current long term shambles or telling people they are impatient! In strict terms you’re right I’m not a ‘fan’ AT THE MOMENT and I’m not alone. You however seem to feel the need to paint me as a nobody who knows nothing of the club and has never engaged with any of it. The truth is though I have and I will when things normalise. I don’t feel I need to berate others ‘commitment’ though in defence of my own inadequacies.
‘On a more pleasant note, I gather you are moving back to the UK. I hope it goes well for you.’
And that bit is just to show anyone on the fence that you’re actually a great guy! Which you’re not. [Post edited 28 Dec 2018 12:54]
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What a rubbish thread. |  |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 13:05 - Dec 28 with 1624 views | Hannibal |
| Welcome todayistheday on 13:04 - Dec 28 by ROTTWEILERS |
What a rubbish thread. |
In what way? | |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 13:08 - Dec 28 with 1622 views | ROTTWEILERS |
| Welcome todayistheday on 13:05 - Dec 28 by Hannibal |
In what way? |
In every way. Very boring to read - not that I read it all. I don't think even yourself and Robbie are enjoying it. I'd genuinely much prefer a blog from either of you... | |
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| Welcome todayistheday on 13:08 - Dec 28 with 1622 views | basilrobbiereborn |
| Welcome todayistheday on 12:53 - Dec 28 by Hannibal |
Ok. Let’s take this step by step.
‘The reason I know all about your difficulties is that you came over hear bleating about them, and you have done enough whingeing about a non-existent clique on AVFTT in the past.’
I’m here primarily because it seems my contributions on AVFTT have been deemed worthy of being forever banned. Please enlighten me why? Did I break the board rules? I am as you know aware of them. Now, the fact you are here reading my bleating suggests you’re interested and in defending yourself against them. OR, you are genuinely innocent and you are simply defending my claims because they are unfounded. If you’re not moderating on there as such, you clearly do have influence as your non existent clique here and on there proves. You are like cancer spreading to healthy cells making them die or mutate. Dramatic maybe but true as I see it.
‘As for your blog, I am genuinely interested to see what you come up with, as you can certainly write when you want to. Whether it will be of wider interest to a forum predominantly made up of football fans is another question, but you don't need me to tell you that.’
As for my blog...yes I can string a few words together. However, as I have not duly submitted my credentials to you by some previous posts that would agree with your sensibilities, anything I may write would just be an exercise in writing for writing’s sake now so you have been successful, at this point, in stopping that from happening.
You’ve put me off. I won’t be bothering. See how you’re enhancing this site already?
‘As for the rest of it, I'm, afraid if you are determined to believe that you are the victim of a sinister plot there isn't much I can do to dissuade you. I've got far better things to do than worry about someone who doesn't really follow the club, and seems to spend his life with his face pressed to the window while he watches those of us that do.’
So tell me who moderates AVFTT then if it’s not you and I can take up the issue with the correct person? Transparency is something lacking severely on AVFTT AND ON HERE. You can’t just dismiss my assertions without providing PROOF OTHERWISE. I don’t know you although I know OF YOU and as you said you don’t know me. Why should I take your claims seriously when all the evidence suggests otherwise? There IS clearly a clique on AVFTT. There always has been and always will be and lack of transparency and YOU will ensure that continues. You have for some reason known to only yourself I think decided I’m not a fan of Blackpool FC or even a fan of football. Where do you get that from?
I’ll let you into a secret...most ‘fans’ have buggered off and are waiting for things to get fixed instead of celebrating the current long term shambles or telling people they are impatient! In strict terms you’re right I’m not a ‘fan’ AT THE MOMENT and I’m not alone. You however seem to feel the need to paint me as a nobody who knows nothing of the club and has never engaged with any of it. The truth is though I have and I will when things normalise. I don’t feel I need to berate others ‘commitment’ though in defence of my own inadequacies.
‘On a more pleasant note, I gather you are moving back to the UK. I hope it goes well for you.’
And that bit is just to show anyone on the fence that you’re actually a great guy! Which you’re not. [Post edited 28 Dec 2018 12:54]
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It's up to FoL to tell people who they use to moderate these days, or not. I understand that they have told one or two posters who asked that they don't divulge contact details nowadays, presumably because of the grief the mods have had in the past. I can certainly vouch for that being so.
In other words, you will have to take it up with them.
There is not much point in going through the rest of your last post. Most of it is self-pitying nonsense. The only thing I would say is that the reason I came back was because I read you making all sorts of accusations and naming me in the process. I know from the debacle that followed the setting up of this site that these things can becoming established "truths" if people say them often enough so I though I would nip your fantasies in the bud.
I finished with a pleasantry because I don't think it does either of us much good to be continually warring and it certainly isn't what other posters want to read. If we are not careful they will all end up blocking us both and we will end up sparring in the ether alone and unwatched.  | |
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