| Blair on Brexit.Incredible 09:50 - Feb 17 with 11591 views | perchrockjack |
"Remainers should rise up"
Chwarae teg ,mun
This mean another civil war then |  |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:00 - Feb 19 with 1248 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 19:52 - Feb 19 by FearOfAJackPlanet |
The People.
Have spoken. |
That's one of my favourites. |  |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:02 - Feb 19 with 1244 views | Highjack |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 19:23 - Feb 19 by sherpajacob |
So far with 120 odd replies to the op.
Lots of people attacking Blair personally for Iraq etc, which is absolutely fair.
Some defending Blair, that he was in tune with the prevailing opinion, even though it was subsequently proved wrong.
Some people saying right message, wrong messenger.
No one has yet been able to put any coherent argument against anything he actually said in his speech, and I doubt anyone will. |
It's because he didn't say anything in his speech that hasn't been discussed and debated a million times before, but because Mr Blair for all his faults is probably one of the the most skilled, polished and persuasive orator we have seen in the last century it seems to have more impact.
A second referendum "In case some people change their minds" is an absolutely ridiculous notion and stinks of "You didn't vote the way we wanted you to the first time, so we'll keep holding votes until you behave. Then once you vote the right way that'll be the end of it."
A referendum on the terms of Brexit is completely pointless also as once Article 50 is activated then we are committed to leaving after the 2 year time period regardless of whether we reach terms or not. A rejection of the terms via a referendum would not keep us in the EU, unless the referendum is held before Article 50 is activated.
The concept of people "rising up against Brexit" is also hugely hypocritical coming from a man who ignored millions of people marching on Downing Street in protest against an illegal war that he just ploughed on with anyway. I do however agree the 48% should not be ignored, and should be able to carry on expressing their opinions and campaigning for whatever they believe is right, but I didn't need Tony Blair to tell me that in the first place.
"The people didn't know what they were voting for." Well I did. But I can't speak for the other 17 odd million people. And I'm sure there would also have been voters on both sides just sticking their vote in a box without any great deal of thought behind it. It's the nature of Universal Suffrage. Truth is most people in this country didn't give a flying shyte about the EU either way before this referendum came along. The apathy was reflected in the pathetic turnouts in the European Elections.
In summary, Blair has just skillfully repeated every remainers argument in a far more powerful way. It's what he does. It's what he always did. I detest the man but he is f ucking good at what he does. [Post edited 19 Feb 2017 20:03]
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:07 - Feb 19 with 1231 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 19:50 - Feb 19 by skippyjack |
Yep.. nothing like..
Leave won a democratic referendum.. people fought and died in a war to preserve democratic rights in this country.
not to be overruled by a regime.. hell bent on authoritarian rage. |
As I said "...and variations thereof". | |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:13 - Feb 19 with 1223 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:02 - Feb 19 by Highjack |
It's because he didn't say anything in his speech that hasn't been discussed and debated a million times before, but because Mr Blair for all his faults is probably one of the the most skilled, polished and persuasive orator we have seen in the last century it seems to have more impact.
A second referendum "In case some people change their minds" is an absolutely ridiculous notion and stinks of "You didn't vote the way we wanted you to the first time, so we'll keep holding votes until you behave. Then once you vote the right way that'll be the end of it."
A referendum on the terms of Brexit is completely pointless also as once Article 50 is activated then we are committed to leaving after the 2 year time period regardless of whether we reach terms or not. A rejection of the terms via a referendum would not keep us in the EU, unless the referendum is held before Article 50 is activated.
The concept of people "rising up against Brexit" is also hugely hypocritical coming from a man who ignored millions of people marching on Downing Street in protest against an illegal war that he just ploughed on with anyway. I do however agree the 48% should not be ignored, and should be able to carry on expressing their opinions and campaigning for whatever they believe is right, but I didn't need Tony Blair to tell me that in the first place.
"The people didn't know what they were voting for." Well I did. But I can't speak for the other 17 odd million people. And I'm sure there would also have been voters on both sides just sticking their vote in a box without any great deal of thought behind it. It's the nature of Universal Suffrage. Truth is most people in this country didn't give a flying shyte about the EU either way before this referendum came along. The apathy was reflected in the pathetic turnouts in the European Elections.
In summary, Blair has just skillfully repeated every remainers argument in a far more powerful way. It's what he does. It's what he always did. I detest the man but he is f ucking good at what he does. [Post edited 19 Feb 2017 20:03]
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Third para isn't strictly right I don't think. The two year period can be extended with the unanimous agreement of all member states. And no one knows whether article 50 can be reversed if we changed our minds cos it's never actually been invoked before. Chances are we'll leave with a series of transitional arrangements and negotiations on the final detail will continue for about a decade or so. | |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:23 - Feb 19 with 1203 views | Highjack |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:13 - Feb 19 by exiledclaseboy |
Third para isn't strictly right I don't think. The two year period can be extended with the unanimous agreement of all member states. And no one knows whether article 50 can be reversed if we changed our minds cos it's never actually been invoked before. Chances are we'll leave with a series of transitional arrangements and negotiations on the final detail will continue for about a decade or so. |
Probably true, but in the unlikely event of a referendum of the terms the vote options will be "accept terms" or "reject terms". It's very unlikely there'll be options like "Reject and stay in" and "Reject but extend negotiations" etc.
So Blair's vision of a referendum on the terms as a back door way to keep us tethered to Brussels is both unrealistic and dishonest which let's be honest are his trademarks. [Post edited 19 Feb 2017 20:24]
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:25 - Feb 19 with 1195 views | rock1n |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:00 - Feb 19 by exiledclaseboy |
That's one of my favourites. |
Haha this is quite fun.
'Suck it up snowflake' |  |
| The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:27 - Feb 19 with 1188 views | rock1n |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:13 - Feb 19 by exiledclaseboy |
Third para isn't strictly right I don't think. The two year period can be extended with the unanimous agreement of all member states. And no one knows whether article 50 can be reversed if we changed our minds cos it's never actually been invoked before. Chances are we'll leave with a series of transitional arrangements and negotiations on the final detail will continue for about a decade or so. |
Chances are it will be a pile of incoherent sh1t, the EU will move on free movement with populism rising up everywhere and we'll find about 70% wanting to stay in but it'll probably be too late but we'll have blue passports so it's all good. | |
| The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:45 - Feb 19 with 1161 views | trampie |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 19:23 - Feb 19 by sherpajacob |
So far with 120 odd replies to the op.
Lots of people attacking Blair personally for Iraq etc, which is absolutely fair.
Some defending Blair, that he was in tune with the prevailing opinion, even though it was subsequently proved wrong.
Some people saying right message, wrong messenger.
No one has yet been able to put any coherent argument against anything he actually said in his speech, and I doubt anyone will. |
I've just checked out what he said and he said nothing, no really he said nothing, nothing at all. |  |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 21:57 - Feb 19 with 1124 views | sherpajacob |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:02 - Feb 19 by Highjack |
It's because he didn't say anything in his speech that hasn't been discussed and debated a million times before, but because Mr Blair for all his faults is probably one of the the most skilled, polished and persuasive orator we have seen in the last century it seems to have more impact.
A second referendum "In case some people change their minds" is an absolutely ridiculous notion and stinks of "You didn't vote the way we wanted you to the first time, so we'll keep holding votes until you behave. Then once you vote the right way that'll be the end of it."
A referendum on the terms of Brexit is completely pointless also as once Article 50 is activated then we are committed to leaving after the 2 year time period regardless of whether we reach terms or not. A rejection of the terms via a referendum would not keep us in the EU, unless the referendum is held before Article 50 is activated.
The concept of people "rising up against Brexit" is also hugely hypocritical coming from a man who ignored millions of people marching on Downing Street in protest against an illegal war that he just ploughed on with anyway. I do however agree the 48% should not be ignored, and should be able to carry on expressing their opinions and campaigning for whatever they believe is right, but I didn't need Tony Blair to tell me that in the first place.
"The people didn't know what they were voting for." Well I did. But I can't speak for the other 17 odd million people. And I'm sure there would also have been voters on both sides just sticking their vote in a box without any great deal of thought behind it. It's the nature of Universal Suffrage. Truth is most people in this country didn't give a flying shyte about the EU either way before this referendum came along. The apathy was reflected in the pathetic turnouts in the European Elections.
In summary, Blair has just skillfully repeated every remainers argument in a far more powerful way. It's what he does. It's what he always did. I detest the man but he is f ucking good at what he does. [Post edited 19 Feb 2017 20:03]
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A second referendum "In case some people change their minds" is an absolutely ridiculous notion
He didn't say that.
He says that people are allowed to change their minds and the Democratic process of the UK didn't end on 24 June. If the will of the people changes fundamentally then they should be a!lowed to express it through the ballot box and it is the job of the remain camp through argument to persuade the people to change their minds. Anything else is a denial of democracy
"The people didn't know what they were voting for."
He didn't say this either,
He said, "The people voted without knowledge of the true terms of Brexit." Which is true because we still don't know the true terms of brexit.
This is why IDS and others are running scared, they know in a full on debate with Blair he would destroy them.
Personally I don't like Blair either, but he is spot on. |  |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 22:24 - Feb 19 with 1101 views | sherpajacob |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 20:02 - Feb 19 by Highjack |
It's because he didn't say anything in his speech that hasn't been discussed and debated a million times before, but because Mr Blair for all his faults is probably one of the the most skilled, polished and persuasive orator we have seen in the last century it seems to have more impact.
A second referendum "In case some people change their minds" is an absolutely ridiculous notion and stinks of "You didn't vote the way we wanted you to the first time, so we'll keep holding votes until you behave. Then once you vote the right way that'll be the end of it."
A referendum on the terms of Brexit is completely pointless also as once Article 50 is activated then we are committed to leaving after the 2 year time period regardless of whether we reach terms or not. A rejection of the terms via a referendum would not keep us in the EU, unless the referendum is held before Article 50 is activated.
The concept of people "rising up against Brexit" is also hugely hypocritical coming from a man who ignored millions of people marching on Downing Street in protest against an illegal war that he just ploughed on with anyway. I do however agree the 48% should not be ignored, and should be able to carry on expressing their opinions and campaigning for whatever they believe is right, but I didn't need Tony Blair to tell me that in the first place.
"The people didn't know what they were voting for." Well I did. But I can't speak for the other 17 odd million people. And I'm sure there would also have been voters on both sides just sticking their vote in a box without any great deal of thought behind it. It's the nature of Universal Suffrage. Truth is most people in this country didn't give a flying shyte about the EU either way before this referendum came along. The apathy was reflected in the pathetic turnouts in the European Elections.
In summary, Blair has just skillfully repeated every remainers argument in a far more powerful way. It's what he does. It's what he always did. I detest the man but he is f ucking good at what he does. [Post edited 19 Feb 2017 20:03]
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"Truth is most people in this country didn't give a flying shyte about the EU either way before this referendum came along".
I agree with you on this, which makes a nonsense of the will of the people argument.
If the will of the people was that strong, ukip would have won the 2015 general election.
What is true now is we have a ukip government by proxy. | |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 22:33 - Feb 19 with 1095 views | Highjack |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 21:57 - Feb 19 by sherpajacob |
A second referendum "In case some people change their minds" is an absolutely ridiculous notion
He didn't say that.
He says that people are allowed to change their minds and the Democratic process of the UK didn't end on 24 June. If the will of the people changes fundamentally then they should be a!lowed to express it through the ballot box and it is the job of the remain camp through argument to persuade the people to change their minds. Anything else is a denial of democracy
"The people didn't know what they were voting for."
He didn't say this either,
He said, "The people voted without knowledge of the true terms of Brexit." Which is true because we still don't know the true terms of brexit.
This is why IDS and others are running scared, they know in a full on debate with Blair he would destroy them.
Personally I don't like Blair either, but he is spot on. |
"A second referendum "In case some people change their minds" is an absolutely ridiculous notion
He didn't say that.
He says that people are allowed to change their minds and the Democratic process of the UK didn't end on 24 June. If the will of the people changes fundamentally then they should be a!lowed to express it through the ballot box"
So he did say that then.
""The people didn't know what they were voting for."
He didn't say this either,
He said, "The people voted without knowledge of the true terms of Brexit."
He also said that too then.
Truth is, every single vote that has ever been cast in any election or referendum in the history of the world has been cast without intricate knowledge of what will happen in the future if the effect of that vote comes to pass. It could easily and equally be argued that the people who voted remain didn't know the exact terms of voting remain as it is impossible to know what would have happened had we stayed in the EU. 10 years from now we could have been dragged into the Euro or the Schengen area, just as two examples, but a very possible scenario, neither of which would be very popular amongst most remain voters I would imagine.
Blair has entered the fray in carefully controlled conditions, with his carefully prepared speech, speaking in the City of London to an audience who is likely to agree with him, with his multi million pound new political enterprise and PR machine behind him. He skillfully uttered a series of non truths and vague concepts and made them sound like convincing truths. | |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 11:20 - Feb 20 with 1034 views | LeonWasGod |
Think what you like about his politics, his specific views on Brexit, his time as the PM including Iraq and generally-apparent looniness, but he's showing more leadership here than Corbyn is capable of. |  | | |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 11:25 - Feb 20 with 1029 views | swanjackal |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 11:20 - Feb 20 by LeonWasGod |
Think what you like about his politics, his specific views on Brexit, his time as the PM including Iraq and generally-apparent looniness, but he's showing more leadership here than Corbyn is capable of. |
That's a considerably low bar to set though :P |  |
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Hypocritically hypocritical ! |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 11:33 - Feb 20 with 1022 views | dailew |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 22:33 - Feb 19 by Highjack |
"A second referendum "In case some people change their minds" is an absolutely ridiculous notion
He didn't say that.
He says that people are allowed to change their minds and the Democratic process of the UK didn't end on 24 June. If the will of the people changes fundamentally then they should be a!lowed to express it through the ballot box"
So he did say that then.
""The people didn't know what they were voting for."
He didn't say this either,
He said, "The people voted without knowledge of the true terms of Brexit."
He also said that too then.
Truth is, every single vote that has ever been cast in any election or referendum in the history of the world has been cast without intricate knowledge of what will happen in the future if the effect of that vote comes to pass. It could easily and equally be argued that the people who voted remain didn't know the exact terms of voting remain as it is impossible to know what would have happened had we stayed in the EU. 10 years from now we could have been dragged into the Euro or the Schengen area, just as two examples, but a very possible scenario, neither of which would be very popular amongst most remain voters I would imagine.
Blair has entered the fray in carefully controlled conditions, with his carefully prepared speech, speaking in the City of London to an audience who is likely to agree with him, with his multi million pound new political enterprise and PR machine behind him. He skillfully uttered a series of non truths and vague concepts and made them sound like convincing truths. |
Absolutely. Schengen and the Euro. How awful.
I hate travelling around Europe now without having to wait for hours at border checks and then queue up to swap one lot of paper money for another and then having to mentally convert prices all the time.
I'm sure businesses also can't wait to get back to the old ways of having to deal in a dozen or so different fluctuating currencies with all the costs involved. |  |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 11:39 - Feb 20 with 1017 views | LeonWasGod |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 11:25 - Feb 20 by swanjackal |
That's a considerably low bar to set though :P |
Certainly is. I suppose that's the point. A bloke who's one of the most detested in recent British politics, and who may people think should be facing trial for war crimes, is STILL more capable of publicising his argument than the supposed leader of the opposition. | | | |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 11:57 - Feb 20 with 998 views | Flashberryjack |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 11:39 - Feb 20 by LeonWasGod |
Certainly is. I suppose that's the point. A bloke who's one of the most detested in recent British politics, and who may people think should be facing trial for war crimes, is STILL more capable of publicising his argument than the supposed leader of the opposition. |
"STILL more capable of publicising his argument than the supposed leader of the opposition"
Proven liars often are. |  |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 12:26 - Feb 20 with 975 views | Highjack |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 11:33 - Feb 20 by dailew |
Absolutely. Schengen and the Euro. How awful.
I hate travelling around Europe now without having to wait for hours at border checks and then queue up to swap one lot of paper money for another and then having to mentally convert prices all the time.
I'm sure businesses also can't wait to get back to the old ways of having to deal in a dozen or so different fluctuating currencies with all the costs involved. |
You'll still be able to go on holiday in Europe. People have been travelling around Europe for centuries. | |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 12:59 - Feb 20 with 962 views | Jack_Kass |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 11:33 - Feb 20 by dailew |
Absolutely. Schengen and the Euro. How awful.
I hate travelling around Europe now without having to wait for hours at border checks and then queue up to swap one lot of paper money for another and then having to mentally convert prices all the time.
I'm sure businesses also can't wait to get back to the old ways of having to deal in a dozen or so different fluctuating currencies with all the costs involved. |
I agree, horrendously awful.
I'm sure Greece and the other parties continually bailing them out, would love to take the cost involved of dealing in two different currencies, as opposed to the cost of debt that they currently have in the common currency..
I'm sure many tourists love getting less for their money when travelling to Europe, especially because they don't have to faff about for 5 minutes of their day trying to work out what currency they need. | |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 14:06 - Feb 20 with 931 views | sherpajacob |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 22:33 - Feb 19 by Highjack |
"A second referendum "In case some people change their minds" is an absolutely ridiculous notion
He didn't say that.
He says that people are allowed to change their minds and the Democratic process of the UK didn't end on 24 June. If the will of the people changes fundamentally then they should be a!lowed to express it through the ballot box"
So he did say that then.
""The people didn't know what they were voting for."
He didn't say this either,
He said, "The people voted without knowledge of the true terms of Brexit."
He also said that too then.
Truth is, every single vote that has ever been cast in any election or referendum in the history of the world has been cast without intricate knowledge of what will happen in the future if the effect of that vote comes to pass. It could easily and equally be argued that the people who voted remain didn't know the exact terms of voting remain as it is impossible to know what would have happened had we stayed in the EU. 10 years from now we could have been dragged into the Euro or the Schengen area, just as two examples, but a very possible scenario, neither of which would be very popular amongst most remain voters I would imagine.
Blair has entered the fray in carefully controlled conditions, with his carefully prepared speech, speaking in the City of London to an audience who is likely to agree with him, with his multi million pound new political enterprise and PR machine behind him. He skillfully uttered a series of non truths and vague concepts and made them sound like convincing truths. |
I think Blair, would be more than happy to confront, IDS, May and Davis in a live debate at a venue of their choosing.
None of them would raise the subject of Iraq. | |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 14:48 - Feb 20 with 916 views | Legend83 |
I don't disagree when Blair says people are allowed to change their minds and a material shift in the will of the people should be considered but who decides what a material shift is? The polling companies?!
You'll only know if this shift has occured if you go to the vote again - and then which result is binding?
There comes a point where a line in the sand has to be drawn.
It's also an interesting call because my sense is that Brexit might actually have more support now the massive PR bloopers the Remain team came out with have not actually occured (economic armageddon; WW3 etc). | | | |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 14:53 - Feb 20 with 909 views | Batterseajack |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 18:08 - Feb 19 by Wingstandwood |
Me just being inquisitive like? These young-un's of the snowflake generation? The ones that complained about the older generations effrontery to vote Brexit-Out?
Have these young-un's realised that if they'd taken part in the democratic voting process as opposed to being permanently welded to their mobile phones and high-tech gadgetry the result could have been so much different?
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This post typify's the contempt that the older generation has for the ones that will be footing their bill as they get older.
The snowflakes Under 18's aren't allowed to vote on their future.
The snowflakes within the 18 to 35 age group are will always be outnumbered when voting up against the baby baby boomers and those who have prospered under the existing system (45's to 80+).
The young are now saddled with massive national debt, unaffordable housing, a declining NHS and public services, we have to work longer before retiring, paying off existing cushty pension arrangements ... the list goes on
But i guess the young only have themselves for their shit plight due to the perceived voter apathy | | | |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 15:31 - Feb 20 with 890 views | dailew |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 12:59 - Feb 20 by Jack_Kass |
I agree, horrendously awful.
I'm sure Greece and the other parties continually bailing them out, would love to take the cost involved of dealing in two different currencies, as opposed to the cost of debt that they currently have in the common currency..
I'm sure many tourists love getting less for their money when travelling to Europe, especially because they don't have to faff about for 5 minutes of their day trying to work out what currency they need. |
It's not the Euro's fault the pound is so weak.
Swiss travellers won't be complaining about "getting less for their money when travelling to Europe,". | |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 16:26 - Feb 20 with 853 views | Highjack |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 14:48 - Feb 20 by Legend83 |
I don't disagree when Blair says people are allowed to change their minds and a material shift in the will of the people should be considered but who decides what a material shift is? The polling companies?!
You'll only know if this shift has occured if you go to the vote again - and then which result is binding?
There comes a point where a line in the sand has to be drawn.
It's also an interesting call because my sense is that Brexit might actually have more support now the massive PR bloopers the Remain team came out with have not actually occured (economic armageddon; WW3 etc). |
I agree with you.
We have changed our minds though. We voted to stay in the EEC or whatever it was called in the seventies, but using blairs logic the people who voted remain then didn't know the exact terms of what they were voting for. They didn't vote for our successive governments to systematically hand over powers to an unelected, unaccountable group of idiots in Brussels. They didn't vote for our borders to be opened to 500 million people. Those things weren't on the ballot paper. So on the interest of fairness we should have to wait forty odd years before another referendum is due. | |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 16:28 - Feb 20 with 851 views | Highjack |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 12:59 - Feb 20 by Jack_Kass |
I agree, horrendously awful.
I'm sure Greece and the other parties continually bailing them out, would love to take the cost involved of dealing in two different currencies, as opposed to the cost of debt that they currently have in the common currency..
I'm sure many tourists love getting less for their money when travelling to Europe, especially because they don't have to faff about for 5 minutes of their day trying to work out what currency they need. |
I wonder how many people voted remain on the basis that they didn't want to pay more for their holidays? | |
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| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 16:35 - Feb 20 with 846 views | Highjack |
| Blair on Brexit.Incredible on 14:06 - Feb 20 by sherpajacob |
I think Blair, would be more than happy to confront, IDS, May and Davis in a live debate at a venue of their choosing.
None of them would raise the subject of Iraq. |
Of course he would. He'd wipe the floor with them. They're not anywhere near his skill level. Also his PR team would have him well briefed with answers ready for every possible question that can be thrown at him. | |
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