| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? 12:10 - Jul 28 with 6310 views | trampie |
Wasn't it said that the Romans noted how quick the Ancient Britons were too learn things ?, compared to others.
Didn't the Normans marry Welsh people of a similar standing in society ? and not others.
Couldn't a higher percentage of people read and write in Wales than anywhere else in the world at one time ? not all that long ago due the non-conformist religious revival.
Didn't eminent eugenicists note [when that type of thing was popular just up until the 2nd world war] that the Welsh belonged to a different a group than some other peoples in Blighty and that the Welsh belonged to the civilised group. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 12:15]
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:49 - Jul 28 with 1106 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:34 - Jul 28 by trampie |
No identity crisis for me either, but is there an identity crisis in the occupied territories ? [the occupied territories being England, as it all belongs to Wales really ]
Not amongst the people that regard themselves as Celts perhaps [Celtic names, a great grandparent or something from Celtic lands] but the others ?, who knows. |
There is a good thread on an article in the guardian about teaching the Welsh language in English schools. I would support that as long as it's strictly non compulsory and pupils over the border could have it more as a cultural and historical view of pre Saxon culture in this country and to give a much more rounded view of what "being British" really means. |  |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:49 - Jul 28 with 1104 views | trampie |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:40 - Jul 28 by Brynmill_Jack |
Just picked up on this post Trampie, check out King Hywel Dda (I think he was a King of dyfed ) and the laws he brought out. Equality for women (especially after divorce) and a whole raft of restorative justice initiatives. Extremely civilized and truly ground breaking in today's world, let alone his time (880-950 AD)! |
Exactly butt, we as in the Welsh are extremely advanced in a civilised way, the laws of Hywell Dda have barely been caught up with by the English even now.
I'm not looking up things [again] having read various bits over the years, but I think if a woman was married for 7 years and then divorced she was entitled to half of the her husbands belongings/land/worth whatever, have ladies even got the vote in England these days ?
I think the Welsh used to divide their land up equally amongst their children after death, at least among all the males, in England it was the eldest son only, don't know if that's changed ?, probably in recent times, but our friends in the East took a millennium to get anywhere near our old laws. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 14:58]
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:52 - Jul 28 with 1102 views | Jackistentialist |
So to the heart of the matter; to define a group in the singular, "The Welsh", "The English", "The Germans", "The Nigerians" and judge them as a totality is fallacious since even from the standpoint of genetics, these are not genetically homogeneous groups. In short, it renders such distinctions as meaningless and historically relative. |  | | |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:56 - Jul 28 with 1089 views | Jackistentialist |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:49 - Jul 28 by trampie |
Exactly butt, we as in the Welsh are extremely advanced in a civilised way, the laws of Hywell Dda have barely been caught up with by the English even now.
I'm not looking up things [again] having read various bits over the years, but I think if a woman was married for 7 years and then divorced she was entitled to half of the her husbands belongings/land/worth whatever, have ladies even got the vote in England these days ?
I think the Welsh used to divide their land up equally amongst their children after death, at least among all the males, in England it was the eldest son only, don't know if that's changed ?, probably in recent times, but our friends in the East took a millennium to get anywhere near our old laws. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 14:58]
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Calling any particular set of laws "more civilized" than another is just a way of stating personal ideological preferences.
In fact it could be argued that the method of inheritance you refer to which is called 'Gavelkind' or 'cyfran' in Welsh was a major reason why Wales never united as a singular nation. With increasingly smaller parcels of land, each Welsh Lord held a weaker position and continued to fight between his brothers for their lands... The Anglo-Saxons practiced Primogeniture which ensured a more united nation under a singular ruler (the eldest son)... A eugenicist would likely argue that the Saxon system was superior since it enabled the English to unite the nation and conquer Wales. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 14:57]
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:57 - Jul 28 with 1088 views | trampie |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:49 - Jul 28 by Brynmill_Jack |
There is a good thread on an article in the guardian about teaching the Welsh language in English schools. I would support that as long as it's strictly non compulsory and pupils over the border could have it more as a cultural and historical view of pre Saxon culture in this country and to give a much more rounded view of what "being British" really means. |
We are all friends and everything is cool, but would their lot get an inferiority complex and would our lot get radicalised if they thought they weren't being given a fair deal.
Education is a way of controlling the masses, most Welsh people [as in 99.9%] don't really know their history and likewise most English people [99.9%] don't know the history of these islands [pre 1066 onwards and very selective after that], the powers that be probably think its better that way. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:59 - Jul 28 with 1082 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:56 - Jul 28 by Jackistentialist |
Calling any particular set of laws "more civilized" than another is just a way of stating personal ideological preferences.
In fact it could be argued that the method of inheritance you refer to which is called 'Gavelkind' or 'cyfran' in Welsh was a major reason why Wales never united as a singular nation. With increasingly smaller parcels of land, each Welsh Lord held a weaker position and continued to fight between his brothers for their lands... The Anglo-Saxons practiced Primogeniture which ensured a more united nation under a singular ruler (the eldest son)... A eugenicist would likely argue that the Saxon system was superior since it enabled the English to unite the nation and conquer Wales. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 14:57]
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The Saxons never conquered Wales. The Normans did but still had sporadic rebellions to put down. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:01 - Jul 28 with 1074 views | Jackistentialist |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:59 - Jul 28 by Brynmill_Jack |
The Saxons never conquered Wales. The Normans did but still had sporadic rebellions to put down. |
You're missing the point - the Normans practiced Primogeniture also and once the lands were united (a far easier task due to the inheritance laws) they were able to squash the old Welsh lords who were busy fighting eachother for their lands. | | | |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:04 - Jul 28 with 1066 views | trampie |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:56 - Jul 28 by Jackistentialist |
Calling any particular set of laws "more civilized" than another is just a way of stating personal ideological preferences.
In fact it could be argued that the method of inheritance you refer to which is called 'Gavelkind' or 'cyfran' in Welsh was a major reason why Wales never united as a singular nation. With increasingly smaller parcels of land, each Welsh Lord held a weaker position and continued to fight between his brothers for their lands... The Anglo-Saxons practiced Primogeniture which ensured a more united nation under a singular ruler (the eldest son)... A eugenicist would likely argue that the Saxon system was superior since it enabled the English to unite the nation and conquer Wales. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 14:57]
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Yes superior in a colonialist 'rape of a fair country' capitalist, exploitation way, but the Welsh way would be seen superior in a chaware teg, fairplay, civilised way.
As a eugenicist might see it. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:13 - Jul 28 with 1054 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:01 - Jul 28 by Jackistentialist |
You're missing the point - the Normans practiced Primogeniture also and once the lands were united (a far easier task due to the inheritance laws) they were able to squash the old Welsh lords who were busy fighting eachother for their lands. |
Sorry I did miss the point and yes the Welsh have been fighting themselves almost forever lol. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:15 - Jul 28 with 1050 views | trampie |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:44 - Jul 28 by Jackistentialist |
Yes they do that, however those actions are based on the false assumption that genetic inheritance is an absolute value... Just because people "believe" that the progeny of Red Rum's Cum will excel at running doesn't mean that they necessarily will... If anything, genetic inheritance is found secondary to genetic mutations which occur on an individual basis... It's why geniuses are born to people who are intellectually average and intellectually average people are born to geniuses (or to provide a more relevant example, why Michael Laudrup's sons are nowhere near as accomplished footballers).
All historical European nationalisms aren't as old as their mythologies claim and the genetic differences, if any between them are minute. The vast majority of differences are derived from culture, which is the result of a mix of economic/geographical situations and the anarchical chance of history. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 14:44]
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Its not false, it's proven to increase their chances, that's why they do it, no guarantees but nonetheless it improves their chances. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:21 - Jul 28 with 1040 views | Jackistentialist |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:15 - Jul 28 by trampie |
Its not false, it's proven to increase their chances, that's why they do it, no guarantees but nonetheless it improves their chances. |
Or is it the belief that said horses will excel which leads to increased amounts of interest and investment in their training, which statistically would lead to "better horses" for running? | | | |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:22 - Jul 28 with 1038 views | Jackistentialist |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:04 - Jul 28 by trampie |
Yes superior in a colonialist 'rape of a fair country' capitalist, exploitation way, but the Welsh way would be seen superior in a chaware teg, fairplay, civilised way.
As a eugenicist might see it. |
I don't think the eugenicists ideology of "survival of the fittest" involves chwarae teg...
By this you're also admitting that these are utterly relative and subjective preferences and nothing more... [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 15:23]
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:27 - Jul 28 with 1033 views | Jackistentialist |
To return to the point, and this will likely be my last statement on this:
'Welsh' is a political and cultural delineation and NOT a genetic one... Ergo, applying genetics-based reasoning to "the Welsh" and their relative qualities is fallacious. There are no "Welsh people" in a genetic sense, only in the political and that itself is a pure abstraction, a geist...
The question "Just how intelligent are the Welsh?" is therefore utterly meaningless. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 15:29]
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:32 - Jul 28 with 1026 views | trampie |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:52 - Jul 28 by Jackistentialist |
So to the heart of the matter; to define a group in the singular, "The Welsh", "The English", "The Germans", "The Nigerians" and judge them as a totality is fallacious since even from the standpoint of genetics, these are not genetically homogeneous groups. In short, it renders such distinctions as meaningless and historically relative. |
Are you saying you don't think there are not any traits amongst different groups ?
Sport for instance, Latins all flair, Celtics quite a bit of flair, English all workrate and determination.
If I went to a tennis tournie and went to watch two players I had not heard of and one was French with a French name and one was American with an Anglo Saxon name, I would expected the French player to have some touch and inventiveness and the American to have a power game [I know they would be likely to be brought up on different surfaces], if I went to see a junior international football tournament and I saw a South American team I would expect to see some flicks and nice touches, and from an English team I would expect to see team work and commitment.
They may be stereo types and generalisations and there will be many exceptions to the rule but more often than not the stereo types and generalisations would be right. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 15:39]
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:46 - Jul 28 with 1012 views | Jackistentialist |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:32 - Jul 28 by trampie |
Are you saying you don't think there are not any traits amongst different groups ?
Sport for instance, Latins all flair, Celtics quite a bit of flair, English all workrate and determination.
If I went to a tennis tournie and went to watch two players I had not heard of and one was French with a French name and one was American with an Anglo Saxon name, I would expected the French player to have some touch and inventiveness and the American to have a power game [I know they would be likely to be brought up on different surfaces], if I went to see a junior international football tournament and I saw a South American team I would expect to see some flicks and nice touches, and from an English team I would expect to see team work and commitment.
They may be stereo types and generalisations and there will be many exceptions to the rule but more often than not the stereo types and generalisations would be right. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 15:39]
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Prove to me how any of your claims as to the 'style' of various 'groups' in regards to sporting play (which I regard to be extremely essentialist, but I'll play along) have ANYTHING to do with genetics.
Are these stereotypes (if they have any relationship to reality) simply a product of differing coaching philosophies practiced in these countries which are products of culture?
If a "Celt" played not with 'flair' but 'workrate' and 'determination', would that make him 'English'? Or do only TRUE Celts play with "a bit of flair?" ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
If there are "many exceptions" to the rule and you admit that there are, then what kind of "rule" is it? [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 15:56]
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 16:04 - Jul 28 with 935 views | trampie |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 15:46 - Jul 28 by Jackistentialist |
Prove to me how any of your claims as to the 'style' of various 'groups' in regards to sporting play (which I regard to be extremely essentialist, but I'll play along) have ANYTHING to do with genetics.
Are these stereotypes (if they have any relationship to reality) simply a product of differing coaching philosophies practiced in these countries which are products of culture?
If a "Celt" played not with 'flair' but 'workrate' and 'determination', would that make him 'English'? Or do only TRUE Celts play with "a bit of flair?" ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
If there are "many exceptions" to the rule and you admit that there are, then what kind of "rule" is it? [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 15:56]
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They may well be products of culture but they are reality nonetheless, its an interesting phenomenon that there are these different traits, the reason for these traits may matter to some, not to me, but they are there and that makes them interesting. | |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 17:16 - Jul 28 with 912 views | yescomeon |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:40 - Jul 28 by Brynmill_Jack |
Just picked up on this post Trampie, check out King Hywel Dda (I think he was a King of dyfed ) and the laws he brought out. Equality for women (especially after divorce) and a whole raft of restorative justice initiatives. Extremely civilized and truly ground breaking in today's world, let alone his time (880-950 AD)! |
I have heard of this before. Any links to articles or the like? I'm interested in reading up a bit more on it. |  |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 21:31 - Jul 28 with 859 views | cockett_jack |
Have to say this all seems pointless, why be concerned about millions of one group of people? Why should you gain comfort or discomfort as to whether or not people within a region share the same traits? Welsh school stats since devolution dont support the argument anyway... |  | | |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 21:33 - Jul 28 with 858 views | pansypants |
Twm Sion Catti predates Robin Hood. A people's champion from Cardigan I think. |  |
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| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 00:21 - Jul 29 with 842 views | JackFish |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 14:14 - Jul 28 by dgt73 |
Its a uncomfortable subject for many because many people Want to portray all people/ races as equal, when clearly they are not. The northern European race faced different evolutionary pressures from the other races and that is why they have been responsible for most inventions/discoveries. Give it a minute and someone will be along to call me a racist.  |
You're not racist, just spectacularly wrong. |  | | |
| Just how intelligent are the Welsh ? on 03:12 - Jul 29 with 827 views | phact0rri |
I will say living in america, I feel extremely intelligent. :)
But in all seriousness, I think a lot of what is described is infact culture. there is a lot of ingenuity in customs and tradition in wales. There are lot of complicated bits of manner, and social graces that i think I didn't realize until I left home.
And when we think of deductive reasoning, problem solving and such as this were pretty much bred in it. Then there's the entire being raised in a bilingual sort of environment. Of course I wish that made the latin people who work with me smarter... good people... and most are so very kind... but american schools... they are rubbish. |  |
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