| Serious Disorder in Southport 21:54 - Jul 30 with 25991 views | Southamptonfan |
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/30/southport-attack-live-children-injur
All kicking off in Southport and in other parts of the country. This could unfortunately develop. A terrible tragedy, related to Islamist terrorist apparently. Mosques being attacked across the country. Its being kept quiet, but the killer is apparently a Muslim but the lack of information is not helping. National Front far right jumping on the bandwagon. The community wants answers.. [Post edited 30 Jul 22:07]
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 00:27 - Aug 2 with 1256 views | saintmark1976 |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 22:12 - Aug 1 by WestEndBoy |
Let 3rd world in get a 3rd world country |
Nothing like an intellectual response to enlighten and enrich the debate WestEndBoy.
Unfortunately your comment is exactly that, nothing like an intellectual response. | |
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 09:55 - Aug 2 with 1122 views | SaintEPW |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 22:25 - Aug 1 by Bazza |
Good information but it omits the latest year’s increased numbers. |
Good Point - Did not have that number on stats I looked at - so 2023 net immigration was 685,000 - big increase and well above the pre-Brexit levels of c. 200,000 to 300,000. What does that mean ?
That Tory policies on Brexit and immigration did not work. We ended up with more immigration. So, our Government increased visas for Health and Social Care workers to keep NHS and Social Services operational. Also visas for International Students to keep our University business operational.
All designed to cope with reduction in EU folks as those people left UK after Brexit.
These Non Eu increases were Indian (250,000), Nigerian (141,000), Chinese (90,000), Pakistani (83,000) and Zimbabwean (36,000).
I cannot recall Farage mentioning that he wanted to stop EU immigration so that more would need to come from other countries. I wonder if that might have affected the Brexit vote. | | | |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 10:07 - Aug 2 with 1121 views | SaintEPW |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 09:55 - Aug 2 by SaintEPW |
Good Point - Did not have that number on stats I looked at - so 2023 net immigration was 685,000 - big increase and well above the pre-Brexit levels of c. 200,000 to 300,000. What does that mean ?
That Tory policies on Brexit and immigration did not work. We ended up with more immigration. So, our Government increased visas for Health and Social Care workers to keep NHS and Social Services operational. Also visas for International Students to keep our University business operational.
All designed to cope with reduction in EU folks as those people left UK after Brexit.
These Non Eu increases were Indian (250,000), Nigerian (141,000), Chinese (90,000), Pakistani (83,000) and Zimbabwean (36,000).
I cannot recall Farage mentioning that he wanted to stop EU immigration so that more would need to come from other countries. I wonder if that might have affected the Brexit vote. |
685,000 peak net Immigration represents 0.9% of UK population - again - we are not swamped - nowhere near.
Tory Government needed to help this small number folks enter UK - in order to keep vital services operational and to help UK businesses.
We have a shortage of labour because 2023 unemployment is dropping and low at 4.3%. In 1970's this was c. 7% - in 1984 UK unemployment peaked at 11.9 %.
So Immigrants are not taking all our jobs either - contrary to what populist politicians and media might imply | | | |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 12:38 - Aug 2 with 1066 views | WestEndBoy |
True though And you know it |  | | |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 12:39 - Aug 2 with 1060 views | saintmark1976 |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 10:07 - Aug 2 by SaintEPW |
685,000 peak net Immigration represents 0.9% of UK population - again - we are not swamped - nowhere near.
Tory Government needed to help this small number folks enter UK - in order to keep vital services operational and to help UK businesses.
We have a shortage of labour because 2023 unemployment is dropping and low at 4.3%. In 1970's this was c. 7% - in 1984 UK unemployment peaked at 11.9 %.
So Immigrants are not taking all our jobs either - contrary to what populist politicians and media might imply |
Also, looking ahead SaintEWP, we in common with nearly every other major Western economy have a declining birth rate.
The latest Office of National Statistics data that I can find suggest a birth rate of 1.49 per fertile woman. The figure required to maintaIn even a stable population in the future is 2.1.
Long term, a policy of no immigration would leave the country with many sectors of the economy ( particularly the N H S and Social Care ) unable to function.
Some people may not like the thought of immigrants but a large part of their disquiet is caused by an inability to want to understand the consequences to their lives should immigrants not come. | |
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 12:52 - Aug 2 with 1055 views | Heisenberg |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 12:38 - Aug 2 by WestEndBoy |
True though And you know it |
What have you got against people from developing countries coming to work in the UK ? |  |
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 13:21 - Aug 2 with 1040 views | Buggalugs |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 12:39 - Aug 2 by saintmark1976 |
Also, looking ahead SaintEWP, we in common with nearly every other major Western economy have a declining birth rate.
The latest Office of National Statistics data that I can find suggest a birth rate of 1.49 per fertile woman. The figure required to maintaIn even a stable population in the future is 2.1.
Long term, a policy of no immigration would leave the country with many sectors of the economy ( particularly the N H S and Social Care ) unable to function.
Some people may not like the thought of immigrants but a large part of their disquiet is caused by an inability to want to understand the consequences to their lives should immigrants not come. |
So we need to increase the population to prosper more? I've heard it all now. |  |
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 13:34 - Aug 2 with 1029 views | saintsfanbrock |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 12:38 - Aug 2 by WestEndBoy |
True though And you know it |
Not even a little bit | | | |
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 13:42 - Aug 2 with 1022 views | franniesTache |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 13:21 - Aug 2 by Buggalugs |
So we need to increase the population to prosper more? I've heard it all now. |
We certainly need to increase the population if any of us want a pension tbf, especially as the birth rate is falling just at the time that the population gets older. |  | | |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:07 - Aug 2 with 1011 views | PatfromPoole |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 13:21 - Aug 2 by Buggalugs |
So we need to increase the population to prosper more? I've heard it all now. |
This is correct, yes. |  |
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:09 - Aug 2 with 1011 views | Buggalugs |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 13:42 - Aug 2 by franniesTache |
We certainly need to increase the population if any of us want a pension tbf, especially as the birth rate is falling just at the time that the population gets older. |
I can't see how encouraging more babies or immigration can possibly be a good thing on an island that's already over-populated and has a completely inadequate infrastructure. | |
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:24 - Aug 2 with 1001 views | WestEndBoy |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:09 - Aug 2 by Buggalugs |
I can't see how encouraging more babies or immigration can possibly be a good thing on an island that's already over-populated and has a completely inadequate infrastructure. |
I wouldn’t waste your time on here … typical lefties in a little bubble | | | |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:24 - Aug 2 with 1000 views | saintsfanbrock |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:09 - Aug 2 by Buggalugs |
I can't see how encouraging more babies or immigration can possibly be a good thing on an island that's already over-populated and has a completely inadequate infrastructure. |
It does make me chuckle when people in this country point to over-population, just feels like a buzz word rather than anything in practice impacting your life.
Frankly if you want the infrastructure issue to be fixed we need more people because it creates new housing which under the S106 agreements and CIL payments for such allow the public sector to levy the private sector to improve communities infrastructures.
Without new housing the LA’s (which are verging on bankruptcy) are going to have to make up that shortfall themselves if you want new infrastructure! Add on to that the social housing element of the new housing is in part funded by tax payers and other infrastructure then you need more tax payers!
What does your Britain of 50 years in the future without immigration and/or high birth rates look like- it’s looks like now but after 50 years of no new development! [Post edited 2 Aug 14:35]
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:27 - Aug 2 with 996 views | franniesTache |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:09 - Aug 2 by Buggalugs |
I can't see how encouraging more babies or immigration can possibly be a good thing on an island that's already over-populated and has a completely inadequate infrastructure. |
it's because of the aging population mush, population my seem to be increasing now but 50 years down the line will be significantly smaller due to the older population dying off.
Also alongside that we have a much higher proportion of people coming up to retirement age than ever before, and that means we need more money coming into the tax coffers to cover all the things that are needed to support that group (plus of course that group will no longer be paying in themselves to the same extent).
Combine that with the fact that the average age is rising and it means as a nation we're going to have real problems if we can't encourage both more children in the population here now, and also more immigration of younger people.
It's a problem that's happening across most developed nations too so we're definitely not alone in it
there's some really interesting reports on it if you're that way inclined (i tend to be but know not everyone is) and it's pretty eye opening to see the challenges we're going to have in the future
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d273adce5274a5862768ff9/future-o | | | |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:29 - Aug 2 with 991 views | saintsfanbrock |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:24 - Aug 2 by WestEndBoy |
I wouldn’t waste your time on here … typical lefties in a little bubble |
Not even left! Gone back and forth between Lib Dem’s and the Tory’s in the last four elections, think you might just be quite far out on the right so everything looks left | | | |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:31 - Aug 2 with 989 views | PatfromPoole |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:27 - Aug 2 by franniesTache |
it's because of the aging population mush, population my seem to be increasing now but 50 years down the line will be significantly smaller due to the older population dying off.
Also alongside that we have a much higher proportion of people coming up to retirement age than ever before, and that means we need more money coming into the tax coffers to cover all the things that are needed to support that group (plus of course that group will no longer be paying in themselves to the same extent).
Combine that with the fact that the average age is rising and it means as a nation we're going to have real problems if we can't encourage both more children in the population here now, and also more immigration of younger people.
It's a problem that's happening across most developed nations too so we're definitely not alone in it
there's some really interesting reports on it if you're that way inclined (i tend to be but know not everyone is) and it's pretty eye opening to see the challenges we're going to have in the future
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d273adce5274a5862768ff9/future-o |
This to some degree accounts for Johnson's ambivalent attitude towards COVID killing off a lot of the older generations.
The other factor is that he is a massive coont. | |
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:35 - Aug 2 with 979 views | saintmark1976 |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 13:21 - Aug 2 by Buggalugs |
So we need to increase the population to prosper more? I've heard it all now. |
Glad to have been able to enlighten you with the facts and pleased that you have now heard them Buggalugs.
Unfortunately, I can’t provide you with any further help concerning your ability ( or otherwise ) as to how you interpret them. | |
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:38 - Aug 2 with 971 views | franniesTache |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:31 - Aug 2 by PatfromPoole |
This to some degree accounts for Johnson's ambivalent attitude towards COVID killing off a lot of the older generations.
The other factor is that he is a massive coont. |
We can learn a lot from Japan with aging population's, they've been through a lot of it already and arguably to a much deeper extent too (their population is actually now actively shrinking).
Interestingly part of their response was actually to shrink their own economy by investing more in public services and not care as much about the market.
One really interesting thing Japan did is actually to encourage more women into the workplace (and more women to be in higher positions) to replace the men that had effectively left/died off from the workforce.
I'd be fascinated to see how that would work for us as the tactics would probably be called "woke" and shouted at by the media
More worryingly they were also forced to raise their retirement age to 77 as their strict immigration policy meant they couldn't have a balance in the money needed to support those retiring. | | | |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:52 - Aug 2 with 937 views | PatfromPoole |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:38 - Aug 2 by franniesTache |
We can learn a lot from Japan with aging population's, they've been through a lot of it already and arguably to a much deeper extent too (their population is actually now actively shrinking).
Interestingly part of their response was actually to shrink their own economy by investing more in public services and not care as much about the market.
One really interesting thing Japan did is actually to encourage more women into the workplace (and more women to be in higher positions) to replace the men that had effectively left/died off from the workforce.
I'd be fascinated to see how that would work for us as the tactics would probably be called "woke" and shouted at by the media
More worryingly they were also forced to raise their retirement age to 77 as their strict immigration policy meant they couldn't have a balance in the money needed to support those retiring. |
I know this will be deemed as utter lunacy by the right-wing element on here, but you have to invest in the public sector to grow the economy.
Without investment in the infrastructure, whether it be health, law and order, education or transport, there is no way the economy can grow.
To think these can be resolved mainly with capitalist initiatives is for the birds.
Rachel Reeves seems to get this. We just have to hope she is given sufficient time to turn things round. [Post edited 2 Aug 14:57]
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 15:03 - Aug 2 with 924 views | SaintEPW |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:24 - Aug 2 by WestEndBoy |
I wouldn’t waste your time on here … typical lefties in a little bubble |
Sorry to disappoint you - No lefties here - I voted for Thatcher. She tried to be a factual person - facing the issues - whether or not we liked how she made decisions based on her view of the facts.
Does labelling different opinions - help understand factual discussion I wonder ?
Guess labelling others might help us avoid having to understand the basis of immigration in this country - we are a country built on immigration.
I also wonder if Thatcher would have left the Single Market - unlikely - given that she created it. She would have had nothing to with Brexit - and would have stood up to Farage | | | |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 15:06 - Aug 2 with 920 views | Buggalugs |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:35 - Aug 2 by saintmark1976 |
Glad to have been able to enlighten you with the facts and pleased that you have now heard them Buggalugs.
Unfortunately, I can’t provide you with any further help concerning your ability ( or otherwise ) as to how you interpret them. |
The only thing you've enlightened me on is what a sanctimonious bellend you are. | |
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 15:06 - Aug 2 with 920 views | franniesTache |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:52 - Aug 2 by PatfromPoole |
I know this will be deemed as utter lunacy by the right-wing element on here, but you have to invest in the public sector to grow the economy.
Without investment in the infrastructure, whether it be health, law and order, education or transport, there is no way the economy can grow.
To think these can be resolved mainly with capitalist initiatives is for the birds.
Rachel Reeves seems to get this. We just have to hope she is given sufficient time to turn things round. [Post edited 2 Aug 14:57]
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It's an incredibly complicated and incredibly nuanced problem that needs a response that matches that, unfortunately our media makes it's money by the exact opposite, simple click bait headlines that drive traffic and enrage people so they keep coming back and ad revenue can go up.
It's like the housing problem, we actually need house prices to fall so more people can afford to live/spend less of their money on living expenses so they can spend more in other parts of the economy.
But so much soft capital and paper value - especially for older people - is tied up in house value it gives no incentive at all to anyone to force the prices to come down.
Likewise immigration is incredibly complex, we clearly and obviously need it, for many reasons (certain jobs/skils & economy being the most obvious), but there does also need to be an open conversation on what that means for the country. Immigration does have positives, but there are negatives too, cultural behaviours that don't fit (polish people street drinking is an example) and i do think it's important that people learn the language of the country they're in too or you end up with ghettos like the british migrants have in spain.
But again neither side is likely to have that conversation because it's difficult, so we end up one side saying "you hate forens you're racist" and the other side saying "you support child killers", neiter of which is of any help at all.
Anyway f*ck knows what the solution is, i'm just a pisshead who enjoys football, than god i don't have to sort this b*llocks out | | | |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 15:12 - Aug 2 with 905 views | Buggalugs |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 15:06 - Aug 2 by franniesTache |
It's an incredibly complicated and incredibly nuanced problem that needs a response that matches that, unfortunately our media makes it's money by the exact opposite, simple click bait headlines that drive traffic and enrage people so they keep coming back and ad revenue can go up.
It's like the housing problem, we actually need house prices to fall so more people can afford to live/spend less of their money on living expenses so they can spend more in other parts of the economy.
But so much soft capital and paper value - especially for older people - is tied up in house value it gives no incentive at all to anyone to force the prices to come down.
Likewise immigration is incredibly complex, we clearly and obviously need it, for many reasons (certain jobs/skils & economy being the most obvious), but there does also need to be an open conversation on what that means for the country. Immigration does have positives, but there are negatives too, cultural behaviours that don't fit (polish people street drinking is an example) and i do think it's important that people learn the language of the country they're in too or you end up with ghettos like the british migrants have in spain.
But again neither side is likely to have that conversation because it's difficult, so we end up one side saying "you hate forens you're racist" and the other side saying "you support child killers", neiter of which is of any help at all.
Anyway f*ck knows what the solution is, i'm just a pisshead who enjoys football, than god i don't have to sort this b*llocks out |
Spot on. I like to talk about these issues and get differing opinions, but it's very hard to in today's world without instantly getting a label stuck on you or having to debate with someone who thinks they're morally superior. [Post edited 2 Aug 15:12]
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| Serious Disorder in Southport on 16:14 - Aug 2 with 846 views | Ifonly |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 14:38 - Aug 2 by franniesTache |
We can learn a lot from Japan with aging population's, they've been through a lot of it already and arguably to a much deeper extent too (their population is actually now actively shrinking).
Interestingly part of their response was actually to shrink their own economy by investing more in public services and not care as much about the market.
One really interesting thing Japan did is actually to encourage more women into the workplace (and more women to be in higher positions) to replace the men that had effectively left/died off from the workforce.
I'd be fascinated to see how that would work for us as the tactics would probably be called "woke" and shouted at by the media
More worryingly they were also forced to raise their retirement age to 77 as their strict immigration policy meant they couldn't have a balance in the money needed to support those retiring. |
The core of what you say about Japan is true, but some of the facts are wrong (e.g. pension age is 65).
The main point about Japan that is a lesson for other countries is that they have had to go massively into debt to sustain their living standards. The ratio of debt to GDP, which is the key measure (a bit like comparing an individual's credit card debt to their wages) is massively more than other nations e.g. in rough figures:
Germany - 65%
UK - 100%
Japan - 250%
That level of debt is only sustainable with low interest rates. Recently interest rates have started to rise....
That's the problem with government spending. It can only be supported by a growing economy. If the ratio of working age population to the retired is decreasing (and immigration doesn't make up the shortfall), then we are increasingly unable to support our debts, or to pay for more government services.
This is a problem that the world has never faced before. It's a slow motion train crash that will play out over multiple decades, but it is starting to happen. The only good solution to this problem is a revolution in productivity brought about by something like AI, which is possible but can't be relied on. | | | |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 16:36 - Aug 2 with 828 views | franniesTache |
| Serious Disorder in Southport on 16:14 - Aug 2 by Ifonly |
The core of what you say about Japan is true, but some of the facts are wrong (e.g. pension age is 65).
The main point about Japan that is a lesson for other countries is that they have had to go massively into debt to sustain their living standards. The ratio of debt to GDP, which is the key measure (a bit like comparing an individual's credit card debt to their wages) is massively more than other nations e.g. in rough figures:
Germany - 65%
UK - 100%
Japan - 250%
That level of debt is only sustainable with low interest rates. Recently interest rates have started to rise....
That's the problem with government spending. It can only be supported by a growing economy. If the ratio of working age population to the retired is decreasing (and immigration doesn't make up the shortfall), then we are increasingly unable to support our debts, or to pay for more government services.
This is a problem that the world has never faced before. It's a slow motion train crash that will play out over multiple decades, but it is starting to happen. The only good solution to this problem is a revolution in productivity brought about by something like AI, which is possible but can't be relied on. |
I thought Japan raided the retirement age (despite Drs protesting it) but happy to be correct if that’s wrong.
Of all the things I’m worried about for the future generation the two biggest are climate change and aging population.
Those car crashes put together are going to be catastrophic for society unless someone has a real long term vision | | | |
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