| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE 11:14 - Feb 23 with 19724 views | judd |
Supporters meeting re: EGM
In agreement with the club, the Trust is holding an open meeting at the club this SUNDAY 25th FEBRUARY.
The meeting will be held in the RATCLIFFE BAR and will commence at 2pm with a planned finish no later than 4pm.
We are still working on how we can stream this meeting and allow supporters who cannot attend to hear what is being said and to email their own questions in.
There is no formal agenda.
We do not necessarily have all the answers but we are sure supporters will have all the questions and we will do our utmost to publish answers to anything we cannot answer on the day.
There will not be any club representatives at the meeting, so there will be an inevitable delay in getting some answers back.
[Post edited 23 Feb 13:50]
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 11:54 - Feb 27 with 2666 views | pioneer |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 11:33 - Feb 27 by judd |
Questions arising from the Supporters meeting of 25th February 2024 (also from emails received)
The Trust could not provide answer for any of these. They have been sent to Simon, who suggested that we do so in instances whereby we could not provide an answer.
1. How much is the monthly shortfall having to be made up on a regular basis?
2. Have all potential investors really asked for the same share purchase level of 90%?
3. Have all the motions to be voted on at the EGM been specified by any potential buyers?
4. What is the procedure for approving a buyer?
5. Now that the Chairman has provided the Trust with details of the potential investor is it possible to speak to them first hand prior to the EGM in order to ascertain how far down the line the negotiations are and at what level they would like involvement from the Trust. If it isn't possible to speak, maybe via a live link then why not?
6. Will the Trust be consulted which way their representative will vote?
7. Will the Trust be afforded the right to see proposed business plans of new investors before a decision to accept an offer is made?
8. If the need for audit is removed, will the accounts provided still include a detailed profit & loss statement?
9. Regarding Special Resolution 5, what is the annual saving from not having the accounts audited?
10. Will the EGM be a poll vote or a show of hands?
11. Who will fund the cash needed from the end of March until the successful buyer takes control, and what time period is the handover of ownership take, once a sale is contractually concluded?
12. How has the National League reacted to the announcement of potential liquidation of the club?
13. Assuming the motions are passed at the EGM how long will it be before all the relevant tests are complete on a major investor?
14. What will happen at the end of March if these tests are not complete?
15. In these circumstances is there any possibility of a points deduction?
16. What can supporters do in order for us to avoid liquidation?
17. Can the Trust shares be converted into new A class shares? If not, why not?
18. What protection against the sale of the stadium/land be in place when a buyer takes over control?
19. Is there a sporting covenant on the ground/surrounding land?
20. Do the board have a preferred bidder identified?
21. Will the purchase funds introduced to the club upon the sale of A class shares to the buyer be used to settle any current director loans?
22. How has the board arrived at the figure of £2m being the amount they are willing to sell the club for, when the asset value is said to be between £4m & £6m?
23. What costs estimated in pounds (£) are the club going to have liability for upon the completion of the sale? i.e. legal, administrative, brokers etc?
24. Under Resolution 2.3, it appears that only class A shareholders will be able to appoint/remove directors. Depending on the attitude of the A share holders to the Trust, it potentially doesn’t look good for Murray. If this should be the case, could the Trust ask to be represented by having a non-executive director on the Board?
25. Please can we confirm that the new class A shares would only be issued in the event of a sale?
26. If the resolution is passed the BOD current loans will not be converted into type A before a deal has been agreed. Only when a deal has been agreed will type A be issued and not before?
27. If the Trust come up with a viable alternative to any or all of motions 1-4 inc., would the board be willing to withdraw their motions in order for the Trust to enter a period of exclusivity in order to get a deal agreed? |
Brilliant list of questions…the Trust continues to hit the nail on the head.
Of course I am not holding my breath re answers. |  | | |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 14:26 - Feb 27 with 2453 views | Bobbyjoe |
Hi Brierls
Will it not be the case, though, that this will be the final and only time that "due diligence" will be able to be applied? What is to stop the new "investor" selling their stake immediately? (And if they can't why would they "invest"?). Admittedly it still may be worth proceeding if the alternative is oblivion. It's a horrible choice! | | | |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 15:15 - Feb 27 with 2337 views | Brierls |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 14:26 - Feb 27 by Bobbyjoe |
Hi Brierls
Will it not be the case, though, that this will be the final and only time that "due diligence" will be able to be applied? What is to stop the new "investor" selling their stake immediately? (And if they can't why would they "invest"?). Admittedly it still may be worth proceeding if the alternative is oblivion. It's a horrible choice! |
Bloody hell, where have you been lurking :)
In short, yes I think it's the last time we (or The Trust) would be able to perform due diligence as the 90% would be enough to do what they want. It's not the best situation, but then we're not exactly doing well when we do have that 'power'.
It's a step into the unknown, or a step off the bridge of oblivion. |  | | |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 19:46 - Feb 28 with 2009 views | RAFCBLUE |
The answer to question 9 is in the detailed accounts.
The statutory audit cost £25,700 in FY2022 so that would roughly be the saving to the club of not requiring an external audit. |  |
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 20:46 - Feb 28 with 1927 views | judd |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 19:46 - Feb 28 by RAFCBLUE |
The answer to question 9 is in the detailed accounts.
The statutory audit cost £25,700 in FY2022 so that would roughly be the saving to the club of not requiring an external audit. |
Except when the question was raised at the December AGM why the audit fee had gone up so much from c. £10k to £25,700, the answer was given that the figure included additional work carried out by WMG in that financial year. | |
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 20:54 - Feb 28 with 1883 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 20:46 - Feb 28 by judd |
Except when the question was raised at the December AGM why the audit fee had gone up so much from c. £10k to £25,700, the answer was given that the figure included additional work carried out by WMG in that financial year. |
https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/business/financial-reporting/audit-fees-surge-am
Audit fees have surged across the UK over the last three years judd.
Accountants are coining it in because there's a shortage of them.
There are probably some specific circumstances too around the issues going on in the club in those years that would have impacted on the audit work required.
It's a good saving and audit is a shareholder choice. If shareholders don't need then it is a saving. [Post edited 28 Feb 20:55]
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 21:07 - Feb 28 with 1832 views | judd |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 20:54 - Feb 28 by RAFCBLUE |
https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/business/financial-reporting/audit-fees-surge-am
Audit fees have surged across the UK over the last three years judd.
Accountants are coining it in because there's a shortage of them.
There are probably some specific circumstances too around the issues going on in the club in those years that would have impacted on the audit work required.
It's a good saving and audit is a shareholder choice. If shareholders don't need then it is a saving. [Post edited 28 Feb 20:55]
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Appreciate that but that was not the answer given to shareholders on 21st December 2023 | |
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 21:18 - Feb 28 with 1779 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 21:07 - Feb 28 by judd |
Appreciate that but that was not the answer given to shareholders on 21st December 2023 |
Appreciate that judd. Accounting fees only ever go one way....
When someone takes 90% of the club its going to be false economy for an audit.
The 1910 articles had equal subscribers and no one dominant party and so all subscribers wrote it in. It wouldn't be normal for any 2024 business of our size to volunteer for an audit cost unless the required thresholds were met. | |
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 21:30 - Feb 28 with 1741 views | judd |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 21:18 - Feb 28 by RAFCBLUE |
Appreciate that judd. Accounting fees only ever go one way....
When someone takes 90% of the club its going to be false economy for an audit.
The 1910 articles had equal subscribers and no one dominant party and so all subscribers wrote it in. It wouldn't be normal for any 2024 business of our size to volunteer for an audit cost unless the required thresholds were met. |
If 10% of shareholders ask for the accounts to be audited then they have to be so done.
We, at work, use KPMG, so tell me about fees. | |
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 21:33 - Feb 28 with 1737 views | pioneer |
I always viewed the audit as an important part of accountability in an organisation. As control is concentrated into fewer hands I would see it as more, not less, important. | | | |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 21:38 - Feb 28 with 1719 views | D_Alien |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 21:33 - Feb 28 by pioneer |
I always viewed the audit as an important part of accountability in an organisation. As control is concentrated into fewer hands I would see it as more, not less, important. |
Which raises the question: is the EGM resolution something that will be carried forward into the potential new ownership, or just for the current financial year?
Can it be changed again? And if so, how do we do that if non new investor shares is right at the edge of the 10% required?
Edit: i get the current savings angle, but is this something requested by new investors?
[Post edited 28 Feb 21:50]
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 21:51 - Feb 28 with 1670 views | tony_roch975 |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 21:38 - Feb 28 by D_Alien |
Which raises the question: is the EGM resolution something that will be carried forward into the potential new ownership, or just for the current financial year?
Can it be changed again? And if so, how do we do that if non new investor shares is right at the edge of the 10% required?
Edit: i get the current savings angle, but is this something requested by new investors?
[Post edited 28 Feb 21:50]
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Presumably it will be carried forward until and unless it is revoked or changed by a future EGM when the Shareholders (then in existence) can vote to change any of the Articles/resolutions. Taking Judd's post above - assuming any new owner 'only' owns 90% of the shares and all other shareholders vote for an audit it would have to be held but ,as you imply, guaranteeing that 10% would be very iffy. | |
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 21:54 - Feb 28 with 1654 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 21:30 - Feb 28 by judd |
If 10% of shareholders ask for the accounts to be audited then they have to be so done.
We, at work, use KPMG, so tell me about fees. |
Yes.
In the new world, subject to EGM approvals, it would be 90% A shares and 10% current shares.
The 10% will be 600+ shareholders so unlikely everyone would ask. It then would be the prerogative of the 90% if they wanted an audit or not. | |
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 22:48 - Feb 28 with 1540 views | Rehsad |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 20:54 - Feb 28 by RAFCBLUE |
https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/business/financial-reporting/audit-fees-surge-am
Audit fees have surged across the UK over the last three years judd.
Accountants are coining it in because there's a shortage of them.
There are probably some specific circumstances too around the issues going on in the club in those years that would have impacted on the audit work required.
It's a good saving and audit is a shareholder choice. If shareholders don't need then it is a saving. [Post edited 28 Feb 20:55]
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The accountancy fees for both of the businesses that I use accounting services - one that I own and the one that I manage - have stayed relatively static over the last 3 years. The one that I manage is fully audited and has 100's of shareholders. Financially it is similar in numbers (not cashflow) to RAFC and the Auditors are a similar sized outfit to the RAFC Auditors. It's been £10k there or thereabouts year on year. For a company that has operates in the public eye, and has multiple stakeholders, my view is that audited accounts are important for transparency. | | | |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 05:44 - Feb 29 with 1418 views | TalkingSutty |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 20:54 - Feb 28 by RAFCBLUE |
https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/business/financial-reporting/audit-fees-surge-am
Audit fees have surged across the UK over the last three years judd.
Accountants are coining it in because there's a shortage of them.
There are probably some specific circumstances too around the issues going on in the club in those years that would have impacted on the audit work required.
It's a good saving and audit is a shareholder choice. If shareholders don't need then it is a saving. [Post edited 28 Feb 20:55]
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Can I just ask you a serious question please? Are you working on behalf of the Chairman and Directors and do you stand to gain financially if any deal to bring in investors as a result of the vote at the EGM is passed? As a life long fan your tone is one of constant corporate speak and not once do i detect a ounce of emotion or compassion in any of your posts. In fact its almost as if you are revelling at the seriousness of the situation. You're blinkered to the fact there honestly is no other way and you're wedded to Simon Gauge. Your refusal to even contemplate that there could be another way of securing the long term future of the club doesn't sit right. In fact its not normal when we've now been told that other investors have emerged.
If credible investors were to come forward at the 11th hour would you agree that postponing the EGM vote would be the sensible option to take? I don't believe the club would crash and burn just because a shortfall in monies for April ( season end) couldn't be found and as stated other revenue streams like season ticket sales could be used to buy us time to find the best solution as a collective. If there is nobody else then fair play but investors have now appeared so let's listen to what they ALL have to say. Failing that if Investors are being snubbed i would like them to go public in the same way that Gauge did last week and engage the media, set out their plans and objectives and let's see what's on the table. [Post edited 29 Feb 6:18]
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 06:18 - Feb 29 with 1377 views | D_Alien |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 05:44 - Feb 29 by TalkingSutty |
Can I just ask you a serious question please? Are you working on behalf of the Chairman and Directors and do you stand to gain financially if any deal to bring in investors as a result of the vote at the EGM is passed? As a life long fan your tone is one of constant corporate speak and not once do i detect a ounce of emotion or compassion in any of your posts. In fact its almost as if you are revelling at the seriousness of the situation. You're blinkered to the fact there honestly is no other way and you're wedded to Simon Gauge. Your refusal to even contemplate that there could be another way of securing the long term future of the club doesn't sit right. In fact its not normal when we've now been told that other investors have emerged.
If credible investors were to come forward at the 11th hour would you agree that postponing the EGM vote would be the sensible option to take? I don't believe the club would crash and burn just because a shortfall in monies for April ( season end) couldn't be found and as stated other revenue streams like season ticket sales could be used to buy us time to find the best solution as a collective. If there is nobody else then fair play but investors have now appeared so let's listen to what they ALL have to say. Failing that if Investors are being snubbed i would like them to go public in the same way that Gauge did last week and engage the media, set out their plans and objectives and let's see what's on the table. [Post edited 29 Feb 6:18]
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In another thread, he tells us he continues "to learn"
One of the best ways to learn is, of course, to ask questions
One thing that's been established, over a long period of time, is that RAFCBLUE does not like questions
Your question, about whether he's acting on behalf of the BoD, is very relevant. In asking if he's working to "an agenda" the other day, it's what i was getting at too
Whether he stands to gain financially or not from the consequences of resolutions being passed at the EGM, the suspicion will always remain that his interests don't lie in what happens on the pitch as much as what happens on balance sheets. Why? Because prior to the Bottomley saga in 2021, virtually every single one of his posts was about finance, not football. It was as if the team itself didn't exist. It was remarked upon... [Post edited 29 Feb 6:25]
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 07:26 - Feb 29 with 1327 views | kel |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 06:18 - Feb 29 by D_Alien |
In another thread, he tells us he continues "to learn"
One of the best ways to learn is, of course, to ask questions
One thing that's been established, over a long period of time, is that RAFCBLUE does not like questions
Your question, about whether he's acting on behalf of the BoD, is very relevant. In asking if he's working to "an agenda" the other day, it's what i was getting at too
Whether he stands to gain financially or not from the consequences of resolutions being passed at the EGM, the suspicion will always remain that his interests don't lie in what happens on the pitch as much as what happens on balance sheets. Why? Because prior to the Bottomley saga in 2021, virtually every single one of his posts was about finance, not football. It was as if the team itself didn't exist. It was remarked upon... [Post edited 29 Feb 6:25]
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Quite. In fact the only football related posts have been regarding McNulty this season. Never once questioned Bentley and Stockdale which funnily enough covered a certain period in the club’s history. Funny that. |  | | |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 07:39 - Feb 29 with 1282 views | TalkingSutty |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 07:26 - Feb 29 by kel |
Quite. In fact the only football related posts have been regarding McNulty this season. Never once questioned Bentley and Stockdale which funnily enough covered a certain period in the club’s history. Funny that. |
A period when what seemed like a healthy budget was squandered and financial decisions were taken that probably shouldn't have been. We had a manageable mortgage on the stadium, a decision was made to pay it off and as a result that has now made it easier for the Chairman to sell the club, especially if the vote goes through at the EGM. It makes you wonder who was responsible for imparting the financial advice? The lot of it stinks to high heaven but as a fan base and shareholders we just accept it without question I'm afraid. This hasn't all just happened by accident, the deadline of next month and the EGM vote next week have been well thought out. They are time limits designed to limit other options. The EGM vote needs to be cancelled and any Chairman worth his salt would do that now that other investors have surfaced. [Post edited 29 Feb 7:44]
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 08:13 - Feb 29 with 1223 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 05:44 - Feb 29 by TalkingSutty |
Can I just ask you a serious question please? Are you working on behalf of the Chairman and Directors and do you stand to gain financially if any deal to bring in investors as a result of the vote at the EGM is passed? As a life long fan your tone is one of constant corporate speak and not once do i detect a ounce of emotion or compassion in any of your posts. In fact its almost as if you are revelling at the seriousness of the situation. You're blinkered to the fact there honestly is no other way and you're wedded to Simon Gauge. Your refusal to even contemplate that there could be another way of securing the long term future of the club doesn't sit right. In fact its not normal when we've now been told that other investors have emerged.
If credible investors were to come forward at the 11th hour would you agree that postponing the EGM vote would be the sensible option to take? I don't believe the club would crash and burn just because a shortfall in monies for April ( season end) couldn't be found and as stated other revenue streams like season ticket sales could be used to buy us time to find the best solution as a collective. If there is nobody else then fair play but investors have now appeared so let's listen to what they ALL have to say. Failing that if Investors are being snubbed i would like them to go public in the same way that Gauge did last week and engage the media, set out their plans and objectives and let's see what's on the table. [Post edited 29 Feb 6:18]
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Morning TS,
Of course you can ask me a serious question.
Am I working on behalf of the Chairman and Directors and do I stand to gain financially if any deal to bring in investors as a result of the vote at the EGM is passed?
No. I am a shareholder, a Trust member and a fan and I do not stand to get financially from this EGM. I actually stand to lose the value of my shares in the club which will become worthless; I am completely ok with this.
If credible investors were to come forward at the 11th hour would you agree that postponing the EGM vote would be the sensible option to take?
"Credible" is a subjective individual judgement. What you believe may be credible others may believe is discreditable (and vice versa). Shareholders and investors always get to form their own view and we have over 600 different individuals.
If the shareholder elected Board of the club consider it a credible position to put to all shareholders then I would hope they would withdraw their motions, however given the FAQ's seem to indicate changing capital structure of the club is necessary to access those investors it is somewhat chicken and egg.
Any credible investor that wanted to go public AND had money would be welcome but ticking those boxes has proved difficult since 2019 has proved difficult.
The seriousness of the situation should not be underestimated and explained. The club will run out of money.
The club nearly ran out of money in 2019 as Andrew Kelly told us all here in June 2020.
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2020/june/statement--andrew-kelly/
And before you think it, that is not a criticism of Chairman past; he did not have the money to subsidise operations either. I have no doubt of his love of the club either.
Businesses cannot wrongfully trade, there seems to be an expectation that "someone" should just keep lending the club money to subsidise activities in a town where only 54 per cent of residents in the borough of Rochdale are in work or economically active and only just over 1 per cent of the residents in the borough of Rochdale come out to support the club regulatory is fantasy.
I can think of two or three local Rochdale business people who could come in and buy the club tomorrow, for cash but either they are not interested or yet to put their money up over the last 5 years. They won't because they have good lives and why on earth would they need the hassle of running a football club and all that goes with it?
RMBC appear over 35 years to have failed too. Their last attempt at facilitating crises was to have both clubs move in together and build a supermarket on the old Athletic Ground creating a structure where one party loaned its economic rights in the stadium for funding.
I'd love to see possible credible investors go public - ideally today; they fact the haven't indicates they either don't exist or are not credible. | |
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 08:18 - Feb 29 with 1213 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 07:39 - Feb 29 by TalkingSutty |
A period when what seemed like a healthy budget was squandered and financial decisions were taken that probably shouldn't have been. We had a manageable mortgage on the stadium, a decision was made to pay it off and as a result that has now made it easier for the Chairman to sell the club, especially if the vote goes through at the EGM. It makes you wonder who was responsible for imparting the financial advice? The lot of it stinks to high heaven but as a fan base and shareholders we just accept it without question I'm afraid. This hasn't all just happened by accident, the deadline of next month and the EGM vote next week have been well thought out. They are time limits designed to limit other options. The EGM vote needs to be cancelled and any Chairman worth his salt would do that now that other investors have surfaced. [Post edited 29 Feb 7:44]
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I don't think that synopsis is quite right TS.
There are two separate things.
(1) The club owns the ground lock, stock and barrel. However it cannot sell, transfer, lease or mortgage the ground without 75% of shareholders approving so at an EGM. The Chairman said the Board believe the ground is worth £4m - £6m on a podcast with Kieran Maguire and were getting a valuation done.
(2) The operating business loses money every year and someone has to pay for that. Those doing so say they have no desire / no ability to continue doing so. The losses of the operating business over the last 7 years are very well documented.
The only time limit we are working to is running out of cash. | |
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 08:20 - Feb 29 with 1210 views | TalkingSutty |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 08:13 - Feb 29 by RAFCBLUE |
Morning TS,
Of course you can ask me a serious question.
Am I working on behalf of the Chairman and Directors and do I stand to gain financially if any deal to bring in investors as a result of the vote at the EGM is passed?
No. I am a shareholder, a Trust member and a fan and I do not stand to get financially from this EGM. I actually stand to lose the value of my shares in the club which will become worthless; I am completely ok with this.
If credible investors were to come forward at the 11th hour would you agree that postponing the EGM vote would be the sensible option to take?
"Credible" is a subjective individual judgement. What you believe may be credible others may believe is discreditable (and vice versa). Shareholders and investors always get to form their own view and we have over 600 different individuals.
If the shareholder elected Board of the club consider it a credible position to put to all shareholders then I would hope they would withdraw their motions, however given the FAQ's seem to indicate changing capital structure of the club is necessary to access those investors it is somewhat chicken and egg.
Any credible investor that wanted to go public AND had money would be welcome but ticking those boxes has proved difficult since 2019 has proved difficult.
The seriousness of the situation should not be underestimated and explained. The club will run out of money.
The club nearly ran out of money in 2019 as Andrew Kelly told us all here in June 2020.
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2020/june/statement--andrew-kelly/
And before you think it, that is not a criticism of Chairman past; he did not have the money to subsidise operations either. I have no doubt of his love of the club either.
Businesses cannot wrongfully trade, there seems to be an expectation that "someone" should just keep lending the club money to subsidise activities in a town where only 54 per cent of residents in the borough of Rochdale are in work or economically active and only just over 1 per cent of the residents in the borough of Rochdale come out to support the club regulatory is fantasy.
I can think of two or three local Rochdale business people who could come in and buy the club tomorrow, for cash but either they are not interested or yet to put their money up over the last 5 years. They won't because they have good lives and why on earth would they need the hassle of running a football club and all that goes with it?
RMBC appear over 35 years to have failed too. Their last attempt at facilitating crises was to have both clubs move in together and build a supermarket on the old Athletic Ground creating a structure where one party loaned its economic rights in the stadium for funding.
I'd love to see possible credible investors go public - ideally today; they fact the haven't indicates they either don't exist or are not credible. |
So if credible investors did come forward at the 11th hour you would agree that it would be a sensible idea to cancel the vote at next week's EGM. It would be a commensense thing to do. Thanks for answering that and at least we are in agreement on that point. | | | |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 08:27 - Feb 29 with 1198 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 06:18 - Feb 29 by D_Alien |
In another thread, he tells us he continues "to learn"
One of the best ways to learn is, of course, to ask questions
One thing that's been established, over a long period of time, is that RAFCBLUE does not like questions
Your question, about whether he's acting on behalf of the BoD, is very relevant. In asking if he's working to "an agenda" the other day, it's what i was getting at too
Whether he stands to gain financially or not from the consequences of resolutions being passed at the EGM, the suspicion will always remain that his interests don't lie in what happens on the pitch as much as what happens on balance sheets. Why? Because prior to the Bottomley saga in 2021, virtually every single one of his posts was about finance, not football. It was as if the team itself didn't exist. It was remarked upon... [Post edited 29 Feb 6:25]
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Another dawn. Another learning opportunity DA.
I'm not sure there is football without finance. Unless Gordon Rigg now sells magic money trees, in which case can you plant a few.
There's a generational issue coming for RAFC in that only 54 per cent of residents in the borough of Rochdale are in work or economically active and only 1 per cent of residents in the borough of Rochdale turn out to support the club.
Withdrawal of subsidy is never popular but that is what is happening not by choice but by ability. | |
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 08:37 - Feb 29 with 1173 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 08:20 - Feb 29 by TalkingSutty |
So if credible investors did come forward at the 11th hour you would agree that it would be a sensible idea to cancel the vote at next week's EGM. It would be a commensense thing to do. Thanks for answering that and at least we are in agreement on that point. |
Hi again TS,
No - IMO i wouldn't agree to cancelling next week's EGM, it must go ahead.
As everyone knows takeover deals can fall through so someone coming up at the 11th hour is going to have to run parallel to the EGM; the club to continue needs a solution.
However, I would hope that any credible party, with RAFC's best interests at heart would come forward and put themselves and their funding plan to public scrutiny.
Perhaps they will come to the Fans Forum tonight and declare themselves? They are leaving it a bit late if they are playing a waiting game but we do not know who the club is talking to under NDA already.
Possibly investors fall into three categories:
* Those that have the money and can move in the timescale needed (i.e. those with liquid assets - cold hard cash)
* Those that have the money but can't move in the timescale needed (i.e. those with good assets but perhaps not cold hard cash)
* Those who don't have the money.
As I've said having watched events since 2019 I don't believe those parties are many and could have come forward at any point in the last 5 years.
And remember there will be nothing happening with the ground without shareholder approval so those who would like to see the Trust / the Council / another vehicle buy some or all of the property assets are going to have to call their own EGM anyway.
The choice is to continue or not by creating a structure that permits investment and control. That still needs to happen as I can't think of a rational investor who will commit the funding levels required without those assurances. | |
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 08:53 - Feb 29 with 1137 views | Dalenet |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 08:27 - Feb 29 by RAFCBLUE |
Another dawn. Another learning opportunity DA.
I'm not sure there is football without finance. Unless Gordon Rigg now sells magic money trees, in which case can you plant a few.
There's a generational issue coming for RAFC in that only 54 per cent of residents in the borough of Rochdale are in work or economically active and only 1 per cent of residents in the borough of Rochdale turn out to support the club.
Withdrawal of subsidy is never popular but that is what is happening not by choice but by ability. |
Sorry to be pedantic - but that economic activity stat is misleading and makes the Borough look worse than it is. The real measure is the percentage of people of working age (defined officially as 18-64) that are active - it is 75.1% in Rochdale compared to 78.8% nationally. Whilst there are issues in the town, the 3% difference is not a reason why people don't support Dale. Lets not keep peddling that story - compare and contrast Hartlepool, or Grimsby, or Barnsley, Or Doncaster and ask why more people in those towns get behind their team.
Lets be clear. Our financial deficit at this level of football could be zero if we had another 1000 people through the gate, week in week out. Too many people that used to watch us have decided they no longer want to do so. And we haven't done enough to attract new fans or a younger cohort of families. We can't escape that and a new investor will have to work tirelessly to address that if they are to make the club successful. [Post edited 29 Feb 13:24]
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| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 10:08 - Feb 29 with 1041 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Fans meeting this SUNDAY 2pm - CHANGE OF VENUE on 08:53 - Feb 29 by Dalenet |
Sorry to be pedantic - but that economic activity stat is misleading and makes the Borough look worse than it is. The real measure is the percentage of people of working age (defined officially as 18-64) that are active - it is 75.1% in Rochdale compared to 78.8% nationally. Whilst there are issues in the town, the 3% difference is not a reason why people don't support Dale. Lets not keep peddling that story - compare and contrast Hartlepool, or Grimsby, or Barnsley, Or Doncaster and ask why more people in those towns get behind their team.
Lets be clear. Our financial deficit at this level of football could be zero if we had another 1000 people through the gate, week in week out. Too many people that used to watch us have decided they no longer want to do so. And we haven't done enough to attract new fans or a younger cohort of families. We can't escape that and a new investor will have to work tirelessly to address that if they are to make the club successful. [Post edited 29 Feb 13:24]
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That economic stat is from RMBC based on the 2021 Census:
https://www.rochdale.gov.uk/information-data-governance/census-2021
Here are the ONS wage levels data based on 2022:
https://www.varbes.com/salary/rochdale-salary
Rochdale average salary: £30,630 (other boroughs are along the bottom)
Your point about needing another 1,000 through the gates is spot on but that is a difficult ask financially for some and before you go anywhere near the entertainment/interest debate. A number of the other clubs you list have played at a much higher level than Dale (Championship or better) so have some pedigree and good times which always increases numbers. | |
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