| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. 18:28 - Feb 17 with 25450 views | TailGunner |
USA plan - Within 18 months if we don't go up.
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 02:48 - Feb 18 with 4228 views | majorraglan |
Personally I think the academy is key to the long term success of the club and I think it should be kept going at the highest level as long as possible.
In terms of the club being £20m in debt, I don’t know if this is right but it’s not something I would dismiss. If it is true, then hopefully selling the Ayew’s Baston and some of the other players would make a dent in the figure. If Leeds were prepared to ay £10m fr Dan James, then today’s goal will have increased awareness / interest in him and hopefully sent his value higher.
If the debt is £20m after all the cuts and sales of last summer, it certainly begs questions about the financing and previous running of the club. [Post edited 18 Feb 2019 8:30]
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 07:38 - Feb 18 with 4187 views | TailGunner |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 01:59 - Feb 18 by jasper_T |
Well dropping to Category Three isn't the same as shutting the academy entirely, as some Football League (and Scottish League) clubs have done. Brentford closed theirs and just run a B team instead, and seem to get decent numbers through into the first team by signing academy cast-offs in their late teens.
Not that we're in the same situation as Brentford. We're the biggest club in a sizeable catchment area that we've only recently started to properly tap, while they've never been in a position to compete for top London-area youth (no coincidence that their foreign recruitment network is well-developed). And I think there is an obligation of sorts that we provide a setup for young Welsh footballers to flourish without having to cross the border.
A drop to Category Two status would likely not have a dramatic effect on the development of local players coming through the age groups. The significant change would be in our ability to attract new players and keep top prospects from being poached. But are we still planning to invest in players this coming summer, as we did Dhanda, Jordi Govea and Ali-Al-Hamadi last summer, and Byers, James, McBurnie, Fulton, Benda, King, Maric, Biabi and Tyler Reid previously?
As Kilkenny loves to point out, we were bringing through local products before the academy was established. Joe Allen, Ben Davies, Ashley Richards, Shaun McDonald... There's still plenty of hope for the next Roberts and Rodon to emerge whatever the official status of the academy, given the division we're now playing in. |
This well thought out post should have been the response to the OP. | | | |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 07:52 - Feb 18 with 4166 views | barry_island |
If only the nasty Trust had dropped the threat of legal action we could have kept the academy going...
Just smile. | |
| Swansea City, THE Austerity Club. |
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 07:55 - Feb 18 with 4149 views | Chief |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 01:59 - Feb 18 by jasper_T |
Well dropping to Category Three isn't the same as shutting the academy entirely, as some Football League (and Scottish League) clubs have done. Brentford closed theirs and just run a B team instead, and seem to get decent numbers through into the first team by signing academy cast-offs in their late teens.
Not that we're in the same situation as Brentford. We're the biggest club in a sizeable catchment area that we've only recently started to properly tap, while they've never been in a position to compete for top London-area youth (no coincidence that their foreign recruitment network is well-developed). And I think there is an obligation of sorts that we provide a setup for young Welsh footballers to flourish without having to cross the border.
A drop to Category Two status would likely not have a dramatic effect on the development of local players coming through the age groups. The significant change would be in our ability to attract new players and keep top prospects from being poached. But are we still planning to invest in players this coming summer, as we did Dhanda, Jordi Govea and Ali-Al-Hamadi last summer, and Byers, James, McBurnie, Fulton, Benda, King, Maric, Biabi and Tyler Reid previously?
As Kilkenny loves to point out, we were bringing through local products before the academy was established. Joe Allen, Ben Davies, Ashley Richards, Shaun McDonald... There's still plenty of hope for the next Roberts and Rodon to emerge whatever the official status of the academy, given the division we're now playing in. |
Who is Ali-Al-Hamadi? |  |
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 08:19 - Feb 18 with 4121 views | Dewi1jack |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 19:11 - Feb 17 by Garyjack |
We're being stripped to the bare bones, and yes, they will sell the academy. Anyone who thought differently is naive in the extreme. I posted this many times before we were relegated that once we were, we would not be able to afford to run the facilities that we'd built, which made Martin Morgans Jaxxbay Ltd millions of pounds. |
Ah.
Would that be the same building company and team of surveyors that noticed the building needed a second floor, just as the roof had been put on and finished/ signed off?
Easy mistake to make I s'pose |  |
| If you wake up breathing, thats a good start to your day and you'll make many thousands of people envious. |
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 10:41 - Feb 18 with 4052 views | jasper_T |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 07:55 - Feb 18 by Chief |
Who is Ali-Al-Hamadi? |
Very promising young striker we brought in from Tranmere for our u18s side. | | | |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 11:31 - Feb 18 with 4007 views | Blue_Blood |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 19:54 - Feb 17 by jasper_T |
A few have maintained Category One. Derby and Blackburn off the top of my head. For most clubs the difficulty of building all the specialised facilities, finding staff, building player recruitment structures to find enough players etc. were the main things preventing them trying for Cat One qualification.
The annual expense once you're there is certainly a factor, and clubs have downgraded as they fell down the leagues (Sunderland), but if you're in a position to move development players on to other football league clubs (as we now are) a lower category can cost you a significant amount of money in compensation/tribunals. Like FFP it's as much about big clubs protecting their interests as anything else.
I the Americans have found a buyer for the specialised facilities we built on overpriced contracts, then a downgrade is inevitable. How much standards actually slip will depend on more than simply the category we're in, though.
If you look at u23s and u18s results this season perhaps Cat One football is a step too far for what we're bringing through locally anyway. |
Reading and Fulham have also been able to maintain cat 1 status while playing consistently in the championship as well as Wolves. | | | |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 11:54 - Feb 18 with 3993 views | Blue_Blood |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 01:59 - Feb 18 by jasper_T |
Well dropping to Category Three isn't the same as shutting the academy entirely, as some Football League (and Scottish League) clubs have done. Brentford closed theirs and just run a B team instead, and seem to get decent numbers through into the first team by signing academy cast-offs in their late teens.
Not that we're in the same situation as Brentford. We're the biggest club in a sizeable catchment area that we've only recently started to properly tap, while they've never been in a position to compete for top London-area youth (no coincidence that their foreign recruitment network is well-developed). And I think there is an obligation of sorts that we provide a setup for young Welsh footballers to flourish without having to cross the border.
A drop to Category Two status would likely not have a dramatic effect on the development of local players coming through the age groups. The significant change would be in our ability to attract new players and keep top prospects from being poached. But are we still planning to invest in players this coming summer, as we did Dhanda, Jordi Govea and Ali-Al-Hamadi last summer, and Byers, James, McBurnie, Fulton, Benda, King, Maric, Biabi and Tyler Reid previously?
As Kilkenny loves to point out, we were bringing through local products before the academy was established. Joe Allen, Ben Davies, Ashley Richards, Shaun McDonald... There's still plenty of hope for the next Roberts and Rodon to emerge whatever the official status of the academy, given the division we're now playing in. |
I think your underplayimg the success and revenue having a category one academy has brought to your club.
8 out of the 14 players that featured in you squad came through your youth system yesterday, and its questionable how many of them would have come through if you weren't a cat 1 academy.
If anything being cat 1 in the championship is even more productive and sensible. When you think of the money being squandered on players at championship level in recent years then 3.5 million a year is peanuts if your academy is being run well.
If you take Cardiff for example this season their u23s would have to go from play someone like Colchester u23s midweek to playing Man City first team on a Saturday which is basically impossible.
Your youngsters could go from playing Man City or Chelsea u23s to playing Rotherham or Bolton first team on a Saturday which in many respects is a step down and would potentially prepare the players for 1st team football.
Your set-up has a lot to be envious about as long as the owners show just a little bit of ambition to go with the cost cutting.
There is at least 40 million worth of assets (probably more) that has come as a result of the success of having ambition and a vision with your academy.
These figures are all potentially what you would get now without further development
Dan James - 15 million
McBurnie - 10 million
Roberts- 6 million
Rodon - 8 million
Fulton 2/3 million
Grimes - 5 million
Byers - 2 million
Baker Richardson 1 million
Harris - 1 million
I'm trying to be fair with the figures here but it will show how much fruit your academy has born since it went cat 1 in just a few years.
Add to that you now have a first team manager who is willing to use these youngsters and is not looking for ready made players but is willing to develop players with raw tools and to polish them into fine players and surely it would be a complete disaster for your club to give this up for 3.5 million a year?! | | | |
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 12:41 - Feb 18 with 3950 views | jasper_T |
The issue with that is whether we will be able to attract those types of players as a spendthrift Championship side regardless of our academy status.
If the recruitment policy changes so that we're not bringing in players like Byers and McBurnie, or expects players brought in to spend a much shorter time in the development setup (because the step up can be made earlier) how much benefit are we getting out of the Category One classification? | | | |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 12:50 - Feb 18 with 3932 views | Uxbridge |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 07:52 - Feb 18 by barry_island |
If only the nasty Trust had dropped the threat of legal action we could have kept the academy going...
Just smile. |
That argument will come, no doubt.
Tough choice ahead. The longer the club stays in the Championship, the smaller our budget becomes - parachute payments reduce year on year and what is affordable next season may not be affordable the season after. There will be difficult decisions where to allocate funds.
We're seeing this season the benefits of a strong academy system. We're never going to be the sort of club that can buy our way to promotion. The Academy and training facilities are tangible legacies of promotion and to cast them asunder would be tragic.
The stronger we can maintain the academy the better. Not just from a first-team perspective but also generating income for funds to strengthen the team. If James does leave in the summer, and let's hope he doesn't and signs a new contract, or anyone else for that matter, then that money should be used to protect the academy and strengthen the team. If run properly it could pay for itself and then some. This is what we used to do after all, before the club lost its way. |  |
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 12:59 - Feb 18 with 3908 views | jasper_T |
Rabbi Matondo cost Schalke £12m. He cost Man City a pittance from Cardiff due to their lower Category.
Future solidarity payments probably not much of a consolation. | | | |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 13:14 - Feb 18 with 3887 views | Blue_Blood |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 12:41 - Feb 18 by jasper_T |
The issue with that is whether we will be able to attract those types of players as a spendthrift Championship side regardless of our academy status.
If the recruitment policy changes so that we're not bringing in players like Byers and McBurnie, or expects players brought in to spend a much shorter time in the development setup (because the step up can be made earlier) how much benefit are we getting out of the Category One classification? |
It depends what you mean by attract. If you mean would you pay the compensation fees then yes there could be an issue (depending on the vision or lack of) however if you mean would the kids and the parents buy into then I don't see any issue at all.
Whether your Cat 1 or Cat 3 you're not gonna attract a player Chelsea, Man City etc are after but after that I think most players/parents would be drawn by the developmental pathway.
You would also be able to beat Cardiff in the initial stage of recruitment. I believe Cardiff have always been better in terms of recruitment at a young age than Swansea (this has evened out a bit recently) but Swansea have been better at developing and have certainly been better at providing a landscape where players can break into the first team in the last 10 years.
There are some good kids in South Wales and I know Cardiff have had huge success against the biggest teams in the country at the younger ages.
This suggests that the problem is with development rather than talent, if you use this as your focus then I see no reason why your academy can't continue to be successful but its imperative that the players who are about to break into the first team (in the next few years) are being pushed and challenged by testing themselves against the best players and teams in the country. | | | |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 23:08 - Feb 18 with 3743 views | jackrmee |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 11:54 - Feb 18 by Blue_Blood |
I think your underplayimg the success and revenue having a category one academy has brought to your club.
8 out of the 14 players that featured in you squad came through your youth system yesterday, and its questionable how many of them would have come through if you weren't a cat 1 academy.
If anything being cat 1 in the championship is even more productive and sensible. When you think of the money being squandered on players at championship level in recent years then 3.5 million a year is peanuts if your academy is being run well.
If you take Cardiff for example this season their u23s would have to go from play someone like Colchester u23s midweek to playing Man City first team on a Saturday which is basically impossible.
Your youngsters could go from playing Man City or Chelsea u23s to playing Rotherham or Bolton first team on a Saturday which in many respects is a step down and would potentially prepare the players for 1st team football.
Your set-up has a lot to be envious about as long as the owners show just a little bit of ambition to go with the cost cutting.
There is at least 40 million worth of assets (probably more) that has come as a result of the success of having ambition and a vision with your academy.
These figures are all potentially what you would get now without further development
Dan James - 15 million
McBurnie - 10 million
Roberts- 6 million
Rodon - 8 million
Fulton 2/3 million
Grimes - 5 million
Byers - 2 million
Baker Richardson 1 million
Harris - 1 million
I'm trying to be fair with the figures here but it will show how much fruit your academy has born since it went cat 1 in just a few years.
Add to that you now have a first team manager who is willing to use these youngsters and is not looking for ready made players but is willing to develop players with raw tools and to polish them into fine players and surely it would be a complete disaster for your club to give this up for 3.5 million a year?! |
Never thought I'd agree with a Cardiff fan on this forum. Duw duw. |  |
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 23:45 - Feb 18 with 3724 views | jasper_T |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 18:47 - Feb 17 by hobo |
Criminal if true. I know we signed Dan James, but do you think he would have joined us if we didn't have CAT 1? No chance. The amount is a pittance compared to the potential benefits |
Missed this bit earlier. Dan James joined us after he left school in 2014. We didn't start playing Category One football until July 2015 and didn't officially achieve the status until June 2016.
But clearly we were already making plans at that stage. | | | |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 00:54 - Feb 19 with 3695 views | JackSomething |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 12:50 - Feb 18 by Uxbridge |
That argument will come, no doubt.
Tough choice ahead. The longer the club stays in the Championship, the smaller our budget becomes - parachute payments reduce year on year and what is affordable next season may not be affordable the season after. There will be difficult decisions where to allocate funds.
We're seeing this season the benefits of a strong academy system. We're never going to be the sort of club that can buy our way to promotion. The Academy and training facilities are tangible legacies of promotion and to cast them asunder would be tragic.
The stronger we can maintain the academy the better. Not just from a first-team perspective but also generating income for funds to strengthen the team. If James does leave in the summer, and let's hope he doesn't and signs a new contract, or anyone else for that matter, then that money should be used to protect the academy and strengthen the team. If run properly it could pay for itself and then some. This is what we used to do after all, before the club lost its way. |
The Academy and training facilities look like they may end up being the only tangible legacies of our years in the PL, apart from the fantastic memories of course.
Bugger, that's depressing. |  |
| You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help. |
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 03:05 - Feb 19 with 3668 views | majorraglan |
Blue Hlood speaks a lot of sense and I agree with many of the points he has raised. Training and staff development is one of the first things to suffer when budgets are tight, but I honestly believe the American owners should find the money to keep the Academy running at Cat 1 level, the list of players trotted out by Blue Blood is more than enough evidence to support the case. [Post edited 19 Feb 2019 3:06]
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 13:04 - Feb 20 with 3466 views | Captain_Sham |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 01:34 - Feb 18 by jasper_T |
Do you know who owns it? I haven't a clue. |
Its is owned by Swansea City Association Football Club Limited |  |
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 17:19 - Feb 20 with 3329 views | theloneranger |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 13:04 - Feb 20 by Captain_Sham |
Its is owned by Swansea City Association Football Club Limited |
Thanks, £££££££££ |  |
| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 12:47 - Feb 23 with 3028 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 11:54 - Feb 18 by Blue_Blood |
I think your underplayimg the success and revenue having a category one academy has brought to your club.
8 out of the 14 players that featured in you squad came through your youth system yesterday, and its questionable how many of them would have come through if you weren't a cat 1 academy.
If anything being cat 1 in the championship is even more productive and sensible. When you think of the money being squandered on players at championship level in recent years then 3.5 million a year is peanuts if your academy is being run well.
If you take Cardiff for example this season their u23s would have to go from play someone like Colchester u23s midweek to playing Man City first team on a Saturday which is basically impossible.
Your youngsters could go from playing Man City or Chelsea u23s to playing Rotherham or Bolton first team on a Saturday which in many respects is a step down and would potentially prepare the players for 1st team football.
Your set-up has a lot to be envious about as long as the owners show just a little bit of ambition to go with the cost cutting.
There is at least 40 million worth of assets (probably more) that has come as a result of the success of having ambition and a vision with your academy.
These figures are all potentially what you would get now without further development
Dan James - 15 million
McBurnie - 10 million
Roberts- 6 million
Rodon - 8 million
Fulton 2/3 million
Grimes - 5 million
Byers - 2 million
Baker Richardson 1 million
Harris - 1 million
I'm trying to be fair with the figures here but it will show how much fruit your academy has born since it went cat 1 in just a few years.
Add to that you now have a first team manager who is willing to use these youngsters and is not looking for ready made players but is willing to develop players with raw tools and to polish them into fine players and surely it would be a complete disaster for your club to give this up for 3.5 million a year?! |
How much do you think the Academy has cost us since it got say Cat 2 ?
Just for the balance like ..... you know with Rory, Kenji and all the lads coming in.
Oh - and after Ben, not a single Academy player made a meaningful impact during our Prem years. Not one. (Roberts 6 or so games was great to see at the end).
Oh - and we could just sign players for the first team - and work hard at developing local talent in the Academy.
And we have no money. So wake the feck up. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 13:44 - Feb 23 with 3009 views | jasper_T |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 12:47 - Feb 23 by Kilkennyjack |
How much do you think the Academy has cost us since it got say Cat 2 ?
Just for the balance like ..... you know with Rory, Kenji and all the lads coming in.
Oh - and after Ben, not a single Academy player made a meaningful impact during our Prem years. Not one. (Roberts 6 or so games was great to see at the end).
Oh - and we could just sign players for the first team - and work hard at developing local talent in the Academy.
And we have no money. So wake the feck up. |
Category Two was achieved in June 2013 with the opening of the Landore site (all-weather pitch etc.) but it took another three years of investment to meet Cat One standards (during which time we were also upgrading/building senior training facilities at no small cost).
We've spent a lot of money on players since then, for sure. Five or six-figure payments for each of the Scottish lads (Adam King, Jay Fulton, Ryan Blair, Botti Biabi, Stephen Kingsley). Competitive wages for free transfers from other academies (Kenji Gorre, Jernade Meade, Tyler Reid, Kees de Boer, George Byers). McBurnie cost a few hundred grand. DJ £72k. We didn't get Cian Harries for nothing etc.
Some of that was wasted (and a little dodgy). Other bets have paid off. But it'll be difficult to maintain that level of spending now we're in the Championship, even if building competitive sides who play the right way is important to the development of our most talented local players. | | | |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 20:10 - Feb 23 with 2934 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 13:44 - Feb 23 by jasper_T |
Category Two was achieved in June 2013 with the opening of the Landore site (all-weather pitch etc.) but it took another three years of investment to meet Cat One standards (during which time we were also upgrading/building senior training facilities at no small cost).
We've spent a lot of money on players since then, for sure. Five or six-figure payments for each of the Scottish lads (Adam King, Jay Fulton, Ryan Blair, Botti Biabi, Stephen Kingsley). Competitive wages for free transfers from other academies (Kenji Gorre, Jernade Meade, Tyler Reid, Kees de Boer, George Byers). McBurnie cost a few hundred grand. DJ £72k. We didn't get Cian Harries for nothing etc.
Some of that was wasted (and a little dodgy). Other bets have paid off. But it'll be difficult to maintain that level of spending now we're in the Championship, even if building competitive sides who play the right way is important to the development of our most talented local players. |
Great post.
You should be running our Academy. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 22:46 - Feb 25 with 2773 views | Blue_Blood |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 12:47 - Feb 23 by Kilkennyjack |
How much do you think the Academy has cost us since it got say Cat 2 ?
Just for the balance like ..... you know with Rory, Kenji and all the lads coming in.
Oh - and after Ben, not a single Academy player made a meaningful impact during our Prem years. Not one. (Roberts 6 or so games was great to see at the end).
Oh - and we could just sign players for the first team - and work hard at developing local talent in the Academy.
And we have no money. So wake the feck up. |
I don't see where I claimed you had bucket loads of money!
What I was suggesting (which I thought I covered in my original post) was that there are huge sums of money being thrown around on transfer gambles in the championship these days (let alone loan fees) and though you've paid fees for the likes of Dan James, Mcburnie etc it is chipping to what you'd have to pay for those player if you bought them now.
You also have the advantage of developing them into first team players in the mould that your manager wants to play and they'll have an added affinity to your club.
Have you also considered that you may have had to bring players like Kenji, Blair, James etc into the club because you were operating at cat 3 or less when kids of that age were recruited into the club and not much time was given to their development?
If you have Cat 1 then the coaches get more time with the players from a young age and this should enhance their development. | | | |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 23:08 - Feb 25 with 2750 views | jasper_T |
I don't think you can ever stop investing in players in Cat One. You're competing with teams that spend literally millions on 15-18 year olds. Look at the beatings our u18s are taking, it's brutal without regular reinforcement. We've had to play older than average sides at u23s to succeed as we have (Leicester are doing the same) due to the recruitment disparity between us and the big Cat One academies.
Now those players have formed a younger than average Championship side, and our 18/19 year olds have struggled even with a few ringers in the mix.
We can't really afford to put a few hundred thousand quid away in the development side for a few years at the moment, even if it has the potential to pay off tenfold. Not like we can get an interest free loan from our owners to cover the hit to our cashflow. FFP won't be an issue yet (since years in the PL have more generous allowances for accounts losses) but if we're still in this league in 2021 our bottom line might have genuine footballing consequences. | | | |
| Academy Cat 1 - to Cat 3.. on 23:47 - Feb 25 with 2730 views | TNT |
Has anyone said to the hedge fund, ' Stump up some cash, so we can be competitive in this league'? | |
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