| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... 19:56 - Aug 6 with 6259 views | Kerouac |
...when we have possession our shape looks like this;
------------------------------ Fisher ------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------ Wood ------------------------------
-------- Naughton -------------------------- Darling ----------
-------------- Ntcham ---- Fulton ------ Grimes -------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Latibeaudiere ----- Obafemi ---- Piroe -------- Manning
- With the emphasis on possession one of Fulton or Grimes inevitably has to drop into the backline to help the defenders keep the ball.
- The other shows himself, dropping short to make a ball into midfield possible.
- Ntcham usually pulls wider, trying to find some space but usually he gets marked or the defender on the ball rejects playing a risky cross field ball to him which might get intercepted and instead goes for the safe options of Grimes or Fulton.
- Grimes too be fair, whenever he gets enough space to turn and bring forward, plays with his head up looking for a good pass...but usually there aren't any good passes on BECAUSE NOBODY IS IN THE SPACE BETWEEN THE LINES...IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAY CRISP, FORWARD, PASSES THAT TAKE DEFENDERS OUT OF THE GAME IF NOBODY IS MAKING THE RUNS INTO THE SPACE TO RECEIVE THEM.
So, why do we have this problem?
We have this problem because our clown of a 'manager' insists that our "wing-backs" ...
(who are actually centre-backs playing as wingers at this stage...he got shot of Bidwell, played Manning at Centre-back for a season, and refuses to give the likes of Joseph or Garrick a shot at playing wide right...he also brought in an extra centre-half, when we already have Bennett, Latibeaudiere, Cooper, instead of prioritising a right wing-back)
...play high up in the attacking line, as wingers.
There is always a line of 4...this is not an accident, it is regimented, so why?
Martin believes that by having that line of 4 high up the pitch, it forces the opposition to have 4 flat defenders marking them.
The clown believes that this creates space in midfield for our players and their possession game.
In reality of course, all this tactic does is hamstring the likes of Grimes (who has nobody playing between the lines to play to) and ensures that we play keep ball between the centre-backs and the midfield, out to the "wing-back" who is tracking back from his high position to offer the pass...only when we look in trouble...and of course plays it back to a defender again...as he has a full-back up his arse, not allowing him to turn.
The only way this system could make any sense whatsoever is if the midfield and the defence were given licence to play long balls over the top every now and again...so our high front 4 could scrap for it, get a cross in, win a corner, even score god damnit(!)...but it is very clear that they are not given permission to do that (they never play those long balls behind the full-back or into the channel, ever!) because they are being instructed to keep ball until the opposition gets tired.
The only players I saw making a run in-between the lines today was Fulton...who has the brains to see that this is necessary (God love him, understands more about the game than his clown of a manager) and Patterson, when he came off the bench....and when they made the runs, if the ball didn't come (because a centre-back was on the ball and didn't fancy himself to pick that pass out) these players also ended up in the front line, of now 5 players.
With 4/5 players high in a line (all marked) the opposition need only leave 1 defensive midfielder to marshall a ton of empty space, and everyone else gets to sit in (closing passing lanes) and pressing...eventually our 3 centre-backs and 2 midfielders cough up the ball...this is inevitable, it is not individual players' fault...at this point the opposition counter attack us at pace.
When Wood/Darling/Naughton/Grimes had the ball, facing a chasm of space...and ordered not to play long balls...the only option they have to create anything is too drive at the opposition at pace, beat a man, drag another defender to them and then give...but the players are clearly terrified of doing this because they know that the moment they lose the ball they are allowing the opposition in against our 3 defenders (with the wing-backs playing so high)...this is where the goals against come from and good players, like Grimes, get castigated by idiot, know nothing, fans who hold them accountable instead of the clown we call our manager.
Martin is not averse to talking about individuals' 'mistakes' in post match interviews either...as we all have to keep pretending that the problem is that he hasn't got good enough players instead of his stupid, brain dead, deluded tactics.
Russell Martin, if you're reading, learn something and make changes or prepare for your coaching career to come to an end. You are fast becoming a joke across the football league. |  |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 19:59 - Aug 6 with 4281 views | onehunglow |
K
You've wasted 15 min of your life there.
That critique will be poison to those who implored us to support this deeply deviou coach of ours,one who is seeing our support drift away and never come back.
He is killing the club
It is all about the club not russell martin
Get that into your skulls |  |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 20:30 - Aug 6 with 4239 views | vetchonian |
great summary sir..I watched in disbelief today at the number of times LATI was in acres of space but the ball was never sent to him instead we tried to pass our way through a congested middle.
8 games without a win but never mind he did the doube so many on here were happy....where are they tonight bu the way | |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 20:36 - Aug 6 with 4228 views | Badlands |
No point setting up to play wing backs if you don’t have wingbacks.
No point expecting the league 1 players cough Wood & Darling) to deal with Championship attackers.
No point expecting to create chances when midfield takes 6 touches before making a pass that was obvious from the point they first had the ball.
Nothing wrong with what Martin is aiming for he just isn’t capable of achieving it.
I don’t like calling for people to lose their jobs but he should be replaced now to give the next manager time to generate confidence and have enough of the season left to keep us mid table. |  |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 20:48 - Aug 6 with 4203 views | dobjack2 |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 20:36 - Aug 6 by Badlands |
No point setting up to play wing backs if you don’t have wingbacks.
No point expecting the league 1 players cough Wood & Darling) to deal with Championship attackers.
No point expecting to create chances when midfield takes 6 touches before making a pass that was obvious from the point they first had the ball.
Nothing wrong with what Martin is aiming for he just isn’t capable of achieving it.
I don’t like calling for people to lose their jobs but he should be replaced now to give the next manager time to generate confidence and have enough of the season left to keep us mid table. |
No point in setting up to play wing backs if we don't have them - agreed square pegs and round holes.
Nothing wrong with what Martin is aiming for - the problem for him is he hasn't got the players in key positions to play it. Some might argue we can't afford the players that we need to play it.
No point in knee jerk reactions until after the window closes. If we haven't moved on players we need to move on to get players that we want then Martin has a huge problem.
Either he persists in a system that doesn't work with the players he has and is extremely vulnerable to losing the ball in the centre of the park and fast counters which every decent opposition manager knows or he has to bin his preferred system and play something that gets the best out of the players he has. | | | |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 21:13 - Aug 6 with 4123 views | onehunglow |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 20:30 - Aug 6 by vetchonian |
great summary sir..I watched in disbelief today at the number of times LATI was in acres of space but the ball was never sent to him instead we tried to pass our way through a congested middle.
8 games without a win but never mind he did the doube so many on here were happy....where are they tonight bu the way |
K wasted his time.
Lati is not a player for this level,neither are Martins MK dons.
It’s that simple | |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 21:14 - Aug 6 with 4127 views | KeithHaynes |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 21:13 - Aug 6 by onehunglow |
K wasted his time.
Lati is not a player for this level,neither are Martins MK dons.
It’s that simple |
Remember, it’s the right system, with the wrong players.
Harry Darling is a gem.
You are too extreme.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 21:16 - Aug 6 with 4103 views | KeithHaynes |
After two games. | |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 21:19 - Aug 6 with 4076 views | onehunglow |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 21:14 - Aug 6 by KeithHaynes |
Remember, it’s the right system, with the wrong players.
Harry Darling is a gem.
You are too extreme.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Not extreme enough.
Darling has played two games.
To refer to him in the terms used herecIS extreme
It’s also extreme to witness such cowardice in a team.
Yep,extreme is right.
Are opinions different to you and not loyal deemed extreme because that s the impression I get.
Our club faces relegation as things stand and do not dismiss that possibility Keith.
No club is afraid of us .
You know that
We all do.
All opinions remember | |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 21:55 - Aug 6 with 4001 views | Kilkennyjack |
Whats wrong the formation that served us so well in the Prem …
………:::……..,,,Fab ……….
Rangel …. ash …. Chico …. Taylor
………….. Leon ….jdg ………….
Dyer …………. siggy ………….. Routs
……………………..Bony ……………..
Produced winning possession based football.
Pace and guile, power and determination.
The type of player and the type of formation - the names shown are just a bit of short hand |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 22:00 - Aug 6 with 3984 views | KeithHaynes |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 21:55 - Aug 6 by Kilkennyjack |
Whats wrong the formation that served us so well in the Prem …
………:::……..,,,Fab ……….
Rangel …. ash …. Chico …. Taylor
………….. Leon ….jdg ………….
Dyer …………. siggy ………….. Routs
……………………..Bony ……………..
Produced winning possession based football.
Pace and guile, power and determination.
The type of player and the type of formation - the names shown are just a bit of short hand |
I would say that every one of those players is better than what we have now 😉 | |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 22:08 - Aug 6 with 3944 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 22:00 - Aug 6 by KeithHaynes |
I would say that every one of those players is better than what we have now 😉 |
Neil Taylor is 33 years old and may have another season left in him. |  |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 22:32 - Aug 6 with 3917 views | jasper_T |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 20:48 - Aug 6 by dobjack2 |
No point in setting up to play wing backs if we don't have them - agreed square pegs and round holes.
Nothing wrong with what Martin is aiming for - the problem for him is he hasn't got the players in key positions to play it. Some might argue we can't afford the players that we need to play it.
No point in knee jerk reactions until after the window closes. If we haven't moved on players we need to move on to get players that we want then Martin has a huge problem.
Either he persists in a system that doesn't work with the players he has and is extremely vulnerable to losing the ball in the centre of the park and fast counters which every decent opposition manager knows or he has to bin his preferred system and play something that gets the best out of the players he has. |
Can't agree with "nothing wrong with what Martin is aiming for" at all. There's a reason so many opposition managers say "Swansea give you chances other teams don't". It's not a square pegs issue, it's systemic. We deliberately keep hold of the ball without stretching the game or moving the opposition about, creating few chances or tiring out opposition players. We push defenders into areas where they can't defend when we turn it over (no team in the world doesn't give away possession now and then). It's a mess of contradictory ideas that individually might sound clever, but we've had plenty of evidence now that it's not going to work.
To Martin's credit he tried in preseason to come up with something better, but Charlton ripped his 4-3-3 a new one after a few lukewarm outings against lesser opposition and he's reverted to what he knows (League One mediocrity?).
Darling looks a soft touch defensively from the two competitive games so far. Sorinola clearly not good enough. Fisher had a good game against Rotherham but... | | | |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 22:38 - Aug 6 with 3911 views | STID2017 |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 21:19 - Aug 6 by onehunglow |
Not extreme enough.
Darling has played two games.
To refer to him in the terms used herecIS extreme
It’s also extreme to witness such cowardice in a team.
Yep,extreme is right.
Are opinions different to you and not loyal deemed extreme because that s the impression I get.
Our club faces relegation as things stand and do not dismiss that possibility Keith.
No club is afraid of us .
You know that
We all do.
All opinions remember |
Facing relegation after two matches ?
Even you don't believe that surely ? |  |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 23:07 - Aug 6 with 3886 views | Catullus |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 21:14 - Aug 6 by KeithHaynes |
Remember, it’s the right system, with the wrong players.
Harry Darling is a gem.
You are too extreme.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
What now? What decent manager plays a system without the players to do it succesfully?
Doesn't a decent manager pick a system that suits his squad?
I'm not sure what system that is because while we have Manning and Naughton for full backs, we don't have the wide players in atack, Garrick may be up to it but he's not picked.
he came in and stated quite plainly his first job was to sort out the defence, then he'd work his way up the team. We can't defend, worse still, we are actually gifting teams chances with our slow and bad play.
Never mind though, we had 70% possession.
Honest question, if we can't move the players out that he wants to get rid of then we can't bring in new players, in which case how do people feel about Latibeaudiere being wing back til at least january?
Today should be a big wake up call for everyone who is giving Martin so much support but instead we are having ah but 1975 and predictions of success in the future with this manager.
Ok there's the other question, can we afford to sack him but then, can we afford not to? When will the point come when people ask that awward question.
Can anyone tell me where the signs of improvement are in these first 2 games? | |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 03:50 - Aug 7 with 3812 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 22:00 - Aug 6 by KeithHaynes |
I would say that every one of those players is better than what we have now 😉 |
Doh ! 🤣 | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 07:08 - Aug 7 with 3781 views | jackal |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 22:38 - Aug 6 by STID2017 |
Facing relegation after two matches ?
Even you don't believe that surely ? |
Two matches?
It's just continuing from last season. Same old.
Slow ponderous build up. It gives the opposition time to organise. Yesterday Blackburn had all the players back to protect their positions.
Ten minutes to go, two down, and we're still passing it around on the half way line.
We've got to speed it up, [Post edited 7 Aug 2022 7:09]
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 07:22 - Aug 7 with 3751 views | Treforys_Jack |
He had the benefit of the doubt for a whole season, then he hinted he'd be changing the set up for this season, but yesterday was so bad, and like a poster said earlier, it's not 2 games, it's continued from last season. We've got no WB's nor wingers, it's turgid monotonous nonsense. [Post edited 7 Aug 2022 11:05]
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 08:29 - Aug 7 with 3650 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 07:08 - Aug 7 by jackal |
Two matches?
It's just continuing from last season. Same old.
Slow ponderous build up. It gives the opposition time to organise. Yesterday Blackburn had all the players back to protect their positions.
Ten minutes to go, two down, and we're still passing it around on the half way line.
We've got to speed it up, [Post edited 7 Aug 2022 7:09]
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Yep I don’t understand the notion of it “only being 2 games”.
It’s 51 games, and counting.
Other than Cooper he’s our longest serving manager in nearly a decade, with Garry Monk. |  |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 08:36 - Aug 7 with 3652 views | PawelAbbott |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 21:55 - Aug 6 by Kilkennyjack |
Whats wrong the formation that served us so well in the Prem …
………:::……..,,,Fab ……….
Rangel …. ash …. Chico …. Taylor
………….. Leon ….jdg ………….
Dyer …………. siggy ………….. Routs
……………………..Bony ……………..
Produced winning possession based football.
Pace and guile, power and determination.
The type of player and the type of formation - the names shown are just a bit of short hand |
We haven't got any full backs and we haven't got any wingers.
We would have a back 4 of centre backs with 2 defensive midfielders ahead of them | | | |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 08:42 - Aug 7 with 3636 views | onehunglow |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 23:07 - Aug 6 by Catullus |
What now? What decent manager plays a system without the players to do it succesfully?
Doesn't a decent manager pick a system that suits his squad?
I'm not sure what system that is because while we have Manning and Naughton for full backs, we don't have the wide players in atack, Garrick may be up to it but he's not picked.
he came in and stated quite plainly his first job was to sort out the defence, then he'd work his way up the team. We can't defend, worse still, we are actually gifting teams chances with our slow and bad play.
Never mind though, we had 70% possession.
Honest question, if we can't move the players out that he wants to get rid of then we can't bring in new players, in which case how do people feel about Latibeaudiere being wing back til at least january?
Today should be a big wake up call for everyone who is giving Martin so much support but instead we are having ah but 1975 and predictions of success in the future with this manager.
Ok there's the other question, can we afford to sack him but then, can we afford not to? When will the point come when people ask that awward question.
Can anyone tell me where the signs of improvement are in these first 2 games? |
Aston Villa has just short of 70% possession and lost too.
Just saying
People look to their team to lift their spirits and many are living in tough times.
This team is killing spirit and nobody can say otherwise.Listen to the crowd.Listen .
Extreme it is. | |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 08:47 - Aug 7 with 3629 views | onehunglow |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 21:16 - Aug 6 by KeithHaynes |
After two games. |
Yes,because he has changed nothing.What was evident to me after two games was his utter arrogance and contempt for his players ,fans and club.It is all about him. This led to the great posters posted filth my way. They're quiet now though.hell shocked and ruefull,a they should be.
It was thus after two games last season and two games now.
How many games before we,as a group ,have the guts to admit we were wrong.
Without doubt ,the worse manager in modern times and the most contemptable. | |
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 09:33 - Aug 7 with 3606 views | dobjack2 |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 22:32 - Aug 6 by jasper_T |
Can't agree with "nothing wrong with what Martin is aiming for" at all. There's a reason so many opposition managers say "Swansea give you chances other teams don't". It's not a square pegs issue, it's systemic. We deliberately keep hold of the ball without stretching the game or moving the opposition about, creating few chances or tiring out opposition players. We push defenders into areas where they can't defend when we turn it over (no team in the world doesn't give away possession now and then). It's a mess of contradictory ideas that individually might sound clever, but we've had plenty of evidence now that it's not going to work.
To Martin's credit he tried in preseason to come up with something better, but Charlton ripped his 4-3-3 a new one after a few lukewarm outings against lesser opposition and he's reverted to what he knows (League One mediocrity?).
Darling looks a soft touch defensively from the two competitive games so far. Sorinola clearly not good enough. Fisher had a good game against Rotherham but... |
I can't believe that the plan is to deliberately keep hold of the ball without stretching the game or moving the opposition about, creating few chances and not tiring out opposition players. That would be madness.
I agree that is what happens on the pitch when we are so slow that we allow teams to continually reset, don't have people moving off the ball or players don't have the ability/confidence/options to make a progressive pass. It becomes possession for the sake of possession rather than having a purpose or plan.
It's only two games, but this time with the benefit of a preseason. I don't think that he can play what he wants to play with the players he has or can afford. One thing that did concern me when he came here was the number of bookings that his central midfielders at MK Dons we're picking up, presumably stopping counters.
As you correctly point out he tried 4-3-3 and it didn't work against Charlton. Does he keep on with plan A but hope for new faces and that we can play it better?
The crunch will come after the window closes. I always wondered whether Cooper wanted to play the way we did or was pragmatic based on trying to get the best out of what he had. | | | |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 09:43 - Aug 7 with 3596 views | BillyChong |
Look back at some of his MK Dons interviews he stubbornly will not change his style until he’s booted. Similar to his ‘doesn’t fit’ take on Ogbeta and instead sticks to playing CB’s on the flank. | | | |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 09:47 - Aug 7 with 3588 views | vetchonian |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 09:33 - Aug 7 by dobjack2 |
I can't believe that the plan is to deliberately keep hold of the ball without stretching the game or moving the opposition about, creating few chances and not tiring out opposition players. That would be madness.
I agree that is what happens on the pitch when we are so slow that we allow teams to continually reset, don't have people moving off the ball or players don't have the ability/confidence/options to make a progressive pass. It becomes possession for the sake of possession rather than having a purpose or plan.
It's only two games, but this time with the benefit of a preseason. I don't think that he can play what he wants to play with the players he has or can afford. One thing that did concern me when he came here was the number of bookings that his central midfielders at MK Dons we're picking up, presumably stopping counters.
As you correctly point out he tried 4-3-3 and it didn't work against Charlton. Does he keep on with plan A but hope for new faces and that we can play it better?
The crunch will come after the window closes. I always wondered whether Cooper wanted to play the way we did or was pragmatic based on trying to get the best out of what he had. |
but it's not only two games it was the same last season ...I constantly banged on about possession for possession sake.
managers should best utilise the resources available to them then seek to improve on what they have. Martin ha just one plan and is trying to make resources fit his plan rather than an plan to fit his resource. Cooper played to his squads strengths and abilities....it would be interspersed to see what Martinez,Sousa and Rodgers could do with this squad..given he hasn't the players is rolled out in Martin's defence [Post edited 7 Aug 2022 9:58]
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| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 10:10 - Aug 7 with 3548 views | BryanSwan |
| Why Russell Martin's "System" is inherently flawed... on 20:30 - Aug 6 by vetchonian |
great summary sir..I watched in disbelief today at the number of times LATI was in acres of space but the ball was never sent to him instead we tried to pass our way through a congested middle.
8 games without a win but never mind he did the doube so many on here were happy....where are they tonight bu the way |
I am genuinely amazed that we brought in no wingers or natural full/wingbacks.
Would you play the ball out to the CB come RB come RW Latibaudiere? Whats the point?
I thought this would be something we would improve on, but we continually insist on play pretty average full backs as advanced wingers, it just doesn't work and it is obvious to everyone. Why do you think Blackburn were happy to give Lati acres. | |
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