| Time to go 16:53 - Dec 12 with 25492 views | DubaiR |
Worst start in 6 seasons. 1 win in 8. We are not making progress.
Yes sold eze and lost others but also spent 8 million.
No clue today, another turgid performance |  | | |  |
| Time to go on 13:56 - Dec 17 with 2182 views | PinnerPaul |
| Time to go on 22:54 - Dec 16 by Northolt_Rs |
“We will stay up”
I really wish I had your belief... We are 19th and just three points ahead of Rotherham, Forest and Derby. This side has no goals in it and is easy to score against. The stories coming out about Warburton not practicing any defensive work and our strikers not training together are just crazily unprofessional if true. Wycombe is a massive game for Warburton. |
I think some fans need to move on re the defence - 2 goals conceded v Watford, Reading & Stoke suggest that defence has been sorted - NO TEAM in the land puts together back to back clean sheets with any regularity.
If we look back to Watford predictions I'm sure most of us were predicting they would score more than 2 on their own! [Post edited 17 Dec 2020 13:58]
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| Time to go on 14:13 - Dec 17 with 2145 views | francisbowles |
| Time to go on 13:56 - Dec 17 by PinnerPaul |
I think some fans need to move on re the defence - 2 goals conceded v Watford, Reading & Stoke suggest that defence has been sorted - NO TEAM in the land puts together back to back clean sheets with any regularity.
If we look back to Watford predictions I'm sure most of us were predicting they would score more than 2 on their own! [Post edited 17 Dec 2020 13:58]
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Agree Pinner. It seems to be improving but we have got away with a few as well, luck has played a part. I just hope we get our fair share of luck and can keep building on the performances. Dickie playing well and not being exposed to runners last couple of games. Nico is settling in, comfortable on the ball and adds a little pace. Noticeable that he is the one who stays back when we have a corner. Barbet improved a bit but right back a bit of an issue lately. Kane had a few good games then Huddersfield was a disaster, Kakay was inconsistent and then injured so Kane back but not very impressive.
We need a reinforcement or two, at least another cb and we could loan out Masterson. Also, Cameron needs help. Another defensive midfielder, if we can't find one could Barbet play there, if Geoff gets injured? | | | |
| Time to go on 16:28 - Dec 17 with 2057 views | paulparker |
Are we now having a go at Clint for telling the truth ? |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Time to go on 17:47 - Dec 17 with 2012 views | daveB |
| Time to go on 16:28 - Dec 17 by paulparker |
Are we now having a go at Clint for telling the truth ? |
well it's his version of the truth, his current boss was bombed out by Warburton after they fell out so he was never going to be a fan.
Still for me if you want a manager to work on the defence you don't hire Mark Warburton, we knew what we were getting and it was to get the best out of our attacking players which he did last season. |  | | |
| Time to go on 10:34 - Dec 18 with 1801 views | Blue_Castello |
To get a balanced view point you only have to read Clives Stoke match preview where he's accepted we are in trouble, we have a weak squad for the Championship, for instance if we suffer an injury to Chair where is the creativity, possibly BOS oh no he's off in January and playing with a face like a slapped arse.... 
It's crazy when people who really care about the club voice their concerns and get called bed wetters, yes there's a long way to go to the end of the season but if you watch the team regularly you can sense the lack of fight when going behind in games, we are massively missing some good experienced players. Apparently we have tightened up the defence by some posters, we've just played two teams who were missing some very influential players ,were much weakened by their absence and we have missed a golden opportunity to get some very valuable points.
I'm very much on the fence with Warburton, I totally want to see continuity and we all appreciate that he plays a passing game but it's a results business full stop. Just hoping we can somehow get some points from the next few games to get us into January and then hope they have the common sense to bring in at least three loan players with some form of Championship experience.
Wycombe away in December feels like a must win and that's crazy, let's hope he's prepared for the aerial bombardment and picks a team accordingly, fingers crossed we have some good young talent but they need support to get them up to Championship level. [Post edited 18 Dec 2020 10:36]
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| Time to go on 10:45 - Dec 18 with 1791 views | themodfather |
if, if we lose at wycombe, let's bring back AInsworth on the coach and set him up, top fella, gave his all to qpr and maybe with Bircham and/or a gallen with him, might get fans on board and start us going. warburton has us playing nice tic-tac football, but it's losing football and we are a results business, yes the reality of ltd spending is with us, but bar a few "wasted" money years it always has been at qpr. ( did we get vfm for the millions spent in the prem? no cup run, few pplayed with heart, commitment and cared for the club and flew the roost asap) | | | |
| Time to go on 11:02 - Dec 18 with 1768 views | derbyhoop |
The not training together bit is a red herring.
If players are playing every 3 days, it is more important to rest and avoid injuries than spending 4-5 hours out on the training ground. That means light training session and video analysis.
Every time we've had a break in the schedule, Dykes has been away with Scotland.
I don't think we're poor enough to go down but it could be a close run thing. Some of the younger players should get better with more experience, e.g. Kakay, Niko, Dickie, Chair, Willock, Bonne. The big disappointment for me is that BOS does not seem interested but still keeps his place. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Time to go on 11:28 - Dec 18 with 1732 views | PinnerPaul |
| Time to go on 10:34 - Dec 18 by Blue_Castello |
To get a balanced view point you only have to read Clives Stoke match preview where he's accepted we are in trouble, we have a weak squad for the Championship, for instance if we suffer an injury to Chair where is the creativity, possibly BOS oh no he's off in January and playing with a face like a slapped arse....
It's crazy when people who really care about the club voice their concerns and get called bed wetters, yes there's a long way to go to the end of the season but if you watch the team regularly you can sense the lack of fight when going behind in games, we are massively missing some good experienced players. Apparently we have tightened up the defence by some posters, we've just played two teams who were missing some very influential players ,were much weakened by their absence and we have missed a golden opportunity to get some very valuable points.
I'm very much on the fence with Warburton, I totally want to see continuity and we all appreciate that he plays a passing game but it's a results business full stop. Just hoping we can somehow get some points from the next few games to get us into January and then hope they have the common sense to bring in at least three loan players with some form of Championship experience.
Wycombe away in December feels like a must win and that's crazy, let's hope he's prepared for the aerial bombardment and picks a team accordingly, fingers crossed we have some good young talent but they need support to get them up to Championship level. [Post edited 18 Dec 2020 10:36]
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OK, I'll dive in.
Criticism is fine, but why dismiss what IS good?
Reading and Stoke hardly created half a dozen chances between them, yet you put that all down to 'injuries' and ignore the decent performance - both defensively and offensively - v Watford.
Yes we can all harp on about what's wrong - its a long list - but to find 'excuses' for the good bits is just daft. | | | |
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| Time to go on 11:29 - Dec 18 with 1726 views | PinnerPaul |
| Time to go on 10:45 - Dec 18 by themodfather |
if, if we lose at wycombe, let's bring back AInsworth on the coach and set him up, top fella, gave his all to qpr and maybe with Bircham and/or a gallen with him, might get fans on board and start us going. warburton has us playing nice tic-tac football, but it's losing football and we are a results business, yes the reality of ltd spending is with us, but bar a few "wasted" money years it always has been at qpr. ( did we get vfm for the millions spent in the prem? no cup run, few pplayed with heart, commitment and cared for the club and flew the roost asap) |
Sooooooooooooo back to the Holloway model then? | | | |
| Time to go on 11:41 - Dec 18 with 1686 views | daveB |
| Time to go on 11:29 - Dec 18 by PinnerPaul |
Sooooooooooooo back to the Holloway model then? |
Question has to be asked 2 and a half seasons on from Holloway and a fair chunk of money spent is the team any better than it was under him. I'm not sure many of the current side would haver got into his team bar Bright and Chair who were already at the club then.
I'm not for a second suggesting we go back to Holloway or that he was particularly successful but it's frightening how little if any progress has been made in the last 2 years | | | |
| Time to go on 12:03 - Dec 18 with 1658 views | PinnerPaul |
| Time to go on 11:41 - Dec 18 by daveB |
Question has to be asked 2 and a half seasons on from Holloway and a fair chunk of money spent is the team any better than it was under him. I'm not sure many of the current side would haver got into his team bar Bright and Chair who were already at the club then.
I'm not for a second suggesting we go back to Holloway or that he was particularly successful but it's frightening how little if any progress has been made in the last 2 years |
Agree Dave, but the answer surely isn't to go back to our old managers? | | | |
| Time to go on 12:06 - Dec 18 with 1644 views | TheChef |
| Time to go on 12:03 - Dec 18 by PinnerPaul |
Agree Dave, but the answer surely isn't to go back to our old managers? |
Well if several changes of managers don't make any difference to the team's performance, that would suggest the issues lie elsewhere too. |  |
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| Time to go on 12:27 - Dec 18 with 1601 views | Blue_Castello |
| Time to go on 11:28 - Dec 18 by PinnerPaul |
OK, I'll dive in.
Criticism is fine, but why dismiss what IS good?
Reading and Stoke hardly created half a dozen chances between them, yet you put that all down to 'injuries' and ignore the decent performance - both defensively and offensively - v Watford.
Yes we can all harp on about what's wrong - its a long list - but to find 'excuses' for the good bits is just daft. |
Fair enough if you don't think Reading would have been far better with Meite , Joao, Swift , Puskas and whoever else was missing, last time we were at home to Reading Swift ran the game with Ejaria and what posessed their manager to bench Olise when if he had started he would have created havoc. Stoke were also missing very influential players, Campbell has been there star player so far, Clucas for all his brain dead tackle on Scowen is a driving force and I think there's a long list they had out injured.
Very true we have managed 45 minutes of good play against some of the better teams but we desperately need some experienced players to keep the momentum going. I'm not on here to criticise I don't post very often and try to keep a balanced thought process before typing. Those games against Reading and Stoke were a massive opportunity against weakened opposition and that's why I felt more disappointed after those results.
As I said before I'm not for changing managers mid term and it needs to get worse yet before we even contemplate a change, I'm hoping desperately we can make January outside the bottom three and then add some experienced heads. [Post edited 18 Dec 2020 12:32]
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| Time to go on 12:44 - Dec 18 with 1564 views | daveB |
| Time to go on 12:03 - Dec 18 by PinnerPaul |
Agree Dave, but the answer surely isn't to go back to our old managers? |
i've no idea what the answer is to be honest | | | |
| Time to go on 12:47 - Dec 18 with 1557 views | PinnerPaul |
| Time to go on 12:27 - Dec 18 by Blue_Castello |
Fair enough if you don't think Reading would have been far better with Meite , Joao, Swift , Puskas and whoever else was missing, last time we were at home to Reading Swift ran the game with Ejaria and what posessed their manager to bench Olise when if he had started he would have created havoc. Stoke were also missing very influential players, Campbell has been there star player so far, Clucas for all his brain dead tackle on Scowen is a driving force and I think there's a long list they had out injured.
Very true we have managed 45 minutes of good play against some of the better teams but we desperately need some experienced players to keep the momentum going. I'm not on here to criticise I don't post very often and try to keep a balanced thought process before typing. Those games against Reading and Stoke were a massive opportunity against weakened opposition and that's why I felt more disappointed after those results.
As I said before I'm not for changing managers mid term and it needs to get worse yet before we even contemplate a change, I'm hoping desperately we can make January outside the bottom three and then add some experienced heads. [Post edited 18 Dec 2020 12:32]
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Fair enough, but I think the injury thing is often over played in the modern game.
IH, yep him!, used to say 20% was about a constant average for injured players out of a 25 man squad and with a 46 match season plus cups, not many players in this div manage 50 games a season.
Would we be better with Amos - probably - but don't see the point of banging on about it (not you btw) after every set back | | | |
| Time to go on 13:07 - Dec 18 with 1509 views | Spaghetti_Hoops |
| Time to go on 11:41 - Dec 18 by daveB |
Question has to be asked 2 and a half seasons on from Holloway and a fair chunk of money spent is the team any better than it was under him. I'm not sure many of the current side would haver got into his team bar Bright and Chair who were already at the club then.
I'm not for a second suggesting we go back to Holloway or that he was particularly successful but it's frightening how little if any progress has been made in the last 2 years |
Dave this description is a travesty of the actual situation where Warburton lost a £20M player, use of two above average Championship strikers on loan and some other influencial players, to be replaced by two relativity cheap strikers and a moderately priced centre half on his way up. The club could have gone the loan route but rightly made the decision to develop it's own strikers. But the loss is huge. He is also expected to develop a number of young/inexperienced players while maintaining the club in the Championship. It is a tough ask, yet you are expecting progress. Pah!
The progress is all about in making the club sustainable for the future. [Post edited 18 Dec 2020 13:11]
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| Time to go on 13:17 - Dec 18 with 1480 views | daveB |
| Time to go on 13:07 - Dec 18 by Spaghetti_Hoops |
Dave this description is a travesty of the actual situation where Warburton lost a £20M player, use of two above average Championship strikers on loan and some other influencial players, to be replaced by two relativity cheap strikers and a moderately priced centre half on his way up. The club could have gone the loan route but rightly made the decision to develop it's own strikers. But the loss is huge. He is also expected to develop a number of young/inexperienced players while maintaining the club in the Championship. It is a tough ask, yet you are expecting progress. Pah!
The progress is all about in making the club sustainable for the future. [Post edited 18 Dec 2020 13:11]
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So what are we to expect then? Go from 13th to 19th and say nothing? Just accept getting worse every year. Eze going wasn't a shock just as Freeman and Smithies going didn't surprise anyone.
The way this model works, the only way it works is if you start with raw players who need a lot of work but have potential, make them better and sell on as we have done with Eze, Freeman and Smithies. You then use the money to bring in players with similar potential but rather than them being in year 1 of their development you want them in year 2 so they are good for us quicker and longer before you sell on and off you go again. By selling Eze and co for big money you can afford players further along in their development. We seem to keep bringing in players in year 1 of their development who will take 18 months to be any good for the price of players who should be in year 2 if that makes sense. Bristol City do it very well as do Brentford.
We spent at least 4 million on strikers, possibly more depending on Kelman fee, 1.5million on dickie, 1 million on Wilock plus a few others. I don't think it's a tough ask to have us competing with the likes of Barnsley, Coventry and luton, we are 9 points behind Barnsley, there is no excuse for that | | | |
| Time to go on 14:19 - Dec 18 with 1393 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Time to go on 13:17 - Dec 18 by daveB |
So what are we to expect then? Go from 13th to 19th and say nothing? Just accept getting worse every year. Eze going wasn't a shock just as Freeman and Smithies going didn't surprise anyone.
The way this model works, the only way it works is if you start with raw players who need a lot of work but have potential, make them better and sell on as we have done with Eze, Freeman and Smithies. You then use the money to bring in players with similar potential but rather than them being in year 1 of their development you want them in year 2 so they are good for us quicker and longer before you sell on and off you go again. By selling Eze and co for big money you can afford players further along in their development. We seem to keep bringing in players in year 1 of their development who will take 18 months to be any good for the price of players who should be in year 2 if that makes sense. Bristol City do it very well as do Brentford.
We spent at least 4 million on strikers, possibly more depending on Kelman fee, 1.5million on dickie, 1 million on Wilock plus a few others. I don't think it's a tough ask to have us competing with the likes of Barnsley, Coventry and luton, we are 9 points behind Barnsley, there is no excuse for that |
Good points dave, but would say Barnsley might say the same about us were the situation reversed.
I think the stuff abotu the year of development is a bit overly simplistic, but it is certainly what the club are aiming for.
In some ways, the club has moved I think a fairly momentous distance in a few short years. I would say in about 2016 we were all talking about how we hadn't sold a player for real money since Crouch. That's changed, and dramatically. Around the same time, we were saying we hadn't had a proper youth team graduate since Langley. That has changed, and to the extent that it's been regular for us in the last 18 months to field half a side that has graduated from youth age groups. That is phenomenal change in actually a very short space of time.
Yet at the same time, as that process begins to work and we begin to sell for proper money that we can re-invest, we naturally expect immediate results. Someone said we need to be improving every season, well, I'm afraid no club improves every season. There can be setbacks, there can be great leaps forward, then a falling away. It's not easy, and sometimes you need to be able to look at the bigger picture, not just the next two months (this is the view of too many fans: most years we get calls for getting in Mick McCarthy 'to the end of the season', it seems, but this is dangerous short term thinking).
Now let's take Warnock at the club where he spent the longest - Sheff U. His placings were:
16th, 10th, 13th, 3rd, 8th, 8th, 2nd
Now, plus side, never even close to relegation, but under those finishes, under paramaters offered by some of our fans, he'd have been out in Season 3 (not improving year on year, going backwards), and probably Season 5 (stagnating, no improvement). It took him several years to get the team into the Prem, but consistency and belief helped him do it.
Now, is Warbs as good a manager as Warnock? In terms of overall football management, no. In terms of bettering young players specifically, I'd say probably yes (at Sheff U, after clearing out some dead wood in his first season, he went 5 years without selling anyone for any sort of fee until Jagielka was sold just after he left - that says a great deal about his (effective) style (also in evidence when with us)), but in most other respects, Warnock is a better manager. We should question, we should be wondering why we are this low and on such a poor run when he actually had money to spend this season, but I think we can do that without over-simplifying how football clubs work (ie: just buy players at a better stage of development; we should be improving every year) - things are simply not that easy - or everyone would be doing it.
HunterHoop will say anticipate and act early... but what if this season players bed in, Dykes improves and starts scoring in March, and grabs 6 from open play in the last 10 games, and then next season we reinvest again and we're looking at top 8 next season? I get for us this is season after season of roughly the same thing (see Bristol below), but do we punish the current manager for the 'failings' of the previous 4 or 5?
You mention Bristol (a club never promoted to the Prem, mind) as an example, but their last few finishes have been:
18, 17, 11, 8, 12
I mean, that's not a million miles from our record of the last five seasons is it? An 8th placed finish would be wonderful of course, but let's not pretend they're some sort of super club doing amazing things we're not.
The Dykes issue is an interesting one. To me, he looks a good player, and what we needed - a sort of battering ram for the front three behind to play off, as Helguson once was (although he's not at Heidar's level (yet), by any means). Early signs were that's what he was, but he's lacking confidence, he's missing great chances, and his movement and positioning in the box is not helping us. Look at Hugill's goal v Brum last season at home. Look at the near post run he makes for Bright. I'm not sure I've seen Dykes make a near post run all season. I could be wrong, but for all the chat that Chair and BOS don't pass to him, there are very few times when there aren't two defenders between them and him.
There's nothing wrong in questioning, and maybe this whole thread will be moot when Ainsworth's determined side beat us tomorrow, but every appointment we as fans say 'time for consistency, time for something long term, and if we're not top 6 in 18 months, then the manager has to go. It's crazy. |  |
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| Time to go on 14:25 - Dec 18 with 1384 views | R_from_afar |
| Time to go on 10:45 - Dec 18 by themodfather |
if, if we lose at wycombe, let's bring back AInsworth on the coach and set him up, top fella, gave his all to qpr and maybe with Bircham and/or a gallen with him, might get fans on board and start us going. warburton has us playing nice tic-tac football, but it's losing football and we are a results business, yes the reality of ltd spending is with us, but bar a few "wasted" money years it always has been at qpr. ( did we get vfm for the millions spent in the prem? no cup run, few pplayed with heart, commitment and cared for the club and flew the roost asap) |
I want to give Warburton a bit more time but when it comes to Ainsworth replacing him in the *near* future, my heart says yes whereas my head screams no.
Ainsworth has become an all-time legend at Wycombe and worked wonders on a shoe string, but that club has given him time and been patient. Those are two things he is unlikely to experience at QPR.
The functional style of football Wycombe play under him is fine by me, but if he came to us, unless he took us on a long winning run, the purists and football snobs would be restless before long and his comparative lack of managerial experience (just us as caretaker manager and Wycombe) would be used as further fuel for the fire.
Without a storming run of wins, I worry that he would crash and burn, unless I suppose he changed his style to a more aesthetically pleasing one. It would be a sad experience for him personally, plus an Rs legend would be torched.
Maybe a few years down the line, but not now, that's my view. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Time to go on 14:44 - Dec 18 with 1336 views | johnhoop |
| Time to go on 14:19 - Dec 18 by Antti_Heinola |
Good points dave, but would say Barnsley might say the same about us were the situation reversed.
I think the stuff abotu the year of development is a bit overly simplistic, but it is certainly what the club are aiming for.
In some ways, the club has moved I think a fairly momentous distance in a few short years. I would say in about 2016 we were all talking about how we hadn't sold a player for real money since Crouch. That's changed, and dramatically. Around the same time, we were saying we hadn't had a proper youth team graduate since Langley. That has changed, and to the extent that it's been regular for us in the last 18 months to field half a side that has graduated from youth age groups. That is phenomenal change in actually a very short space of time.
Yet at the same time, as that process begins to work and we begin to sell for proper money that we can re-invest, we naturally expect immediate results. Someone said we need to be improving every season, well, I'm afraid no club improves every season. There can be setbacks, there can be great leaps forward, then a falling away. It's not easy, and sometimes you need to be able to look at the bigger picture, not just the next two months (this is the view of too many fans: most years we get calls for getting in Mick McCarthy 'to the end of the season', it seems, but this is dangerous short term thinking).
Now let's take Warnock at the club where he spent the longest - Sheff U. His placings were:
16th, 10th, 13th, 3rd, 8th, 8th, 2nd
Now, plus side, never even close to relegation, but under those finishes, under paramaters offered by some of our fans, he'd have been out in Season 3 (not improving year on year, going backwards), and probably Season 5 (stagnating, no improvement). It took him several years to get the team into the Prem, but consistency and belief helped him do it.
Now, is Warbs as good a manager as Warnock? In terms of overall football management, no. In terms of bettering young players specifically, I'd say probably yes (at Sheff U, after clearing out some dead wood in his first season, he went 5 years without selling anyone for any sort of fee until Jagielka was sold just after he left - that says a great deal about his (effective) style (also in evidence when with us)), but in most other respects, Warnock is a better manager. We should question, we should be wondering why we are this low and on such a poor run when he actually had money to spend this season, but I think we can do that without over-simplifying how football clubs work (ie: just buy players at a better stage of development; we should be improving every year) - things are simply not that easy - or everyone would be doing it.
HunterHoop will say anticipate and act early... but what if this season players bed in, Dykes improves and starts scoring in March, and grabs 6 from open play in the last 10 games, and then next season we reinvest again and we're looking at top 8 next season? I get for us this is season after season of roughly the same thing (see Bristol below), but do we punish the current manager for the 'failings' of the previous 4 or 5?
You mention Bristol (a club never promoted to the Prem, mind) as an example, but their last few finishes have been:
18, 17, 11, 8, 12
I mean, that's not a million miles from our record of the last five seasons is it? An 8th placed finish would be wonderful of course, but let's not pretend they're some sort of super club doing amazing things we're not.
The Dykes issue is an interesting one. To me, he looks a good player, and what we needed - a sort of battering ram for the front three behind to play off, as Helguson once was (although he's not at Heidar's level (yet), by any means). Early signs were that's what he was, but he's lacking confidence, he's missing great chances, and his movement and positioning in the box is not helping us. Look at Hugill's goal v Brum last season at home. Look at the near post run he makes for Bright. I'm not sure I've seen Dykes make a near post run all season. I could be wrong, but for all the chat that Chair and BOS don't pass to him, there are very few times when there aren't two defenders between them and him.
There's nothing wrong in questioning, and maybe this whole thread will be moot when Ainsworth's determined side beat us tomorrow, but every appointment we as fans say 'time for consistency, time for something long term, and if we're not top 6 in 18 months, then the manager has to go. It's crazy. |
I would go along with all of that Antii, provided he can keep us in this division, because I dont have the optimistic outlook on the consequences of relegation that some posters appear to subscribe to.
I think it would be a disaster for the club and probably take us many years to recover from. Rather than it being a case of strengthening this group of players through experience in League One to make them a more effective unit after a quick return to this division I would be amazed if the best of them were not picked off by Championship clubs if we went down. And if you took Chair, Dieng and Dickie out of that side (assuming BOS gone already), then you're not left with a League One promotion side. | | | |
| Time to go on 14:47 - Dec 18 with 1326 views | francisbowles |
| Time to go on 14:19 - Dec 18 by Antti_Heinola |
Good points dave, but would say Barnsley might say the same about us were the situation reversed.
I think the stuff abotu the year of development is a bit overly simplistic, but it is certainly what the club are aiming for.
In some ways, the club has moved I think a fairly momentous distance in a few short years. I would say in about 2016 we were all talking about how we hadn't sold a player for real money since Crouch. That's changed, and dramatically. Around the same time, we were saying we hadn't had a proper youth team graduate since Langley. That has changed, and to the extent that it's been regular for us in the last 18 months to field half a side that has graduated from youth age groups. That is phenomenal change in actually a very short space of time.
Yet at the same time, as that process begins to work and we begin to sell for proper money that we can re-invest, we naturally expect immediate results. Someone said we need to be improving every season, well, I'm afraid no club improves every season. There can be setbacks, there can be great leaps forward, then a falling away. It's not easy, and sometimes you need to be able to look at the bigger picture, not just the next two months (this is the view of too many fans: most years we get calls for getting in Mick McCarthy 'to the end of the season', it seems, but this is dangerous short term thinking).
Now let's take Warnock at the club where he spent the longest - Sheff U. His placings were:
16th, 10th, 13th, 3rd, 8th, 8th, 2nd
Now, plus side, never even close to relegation, but under those finishes, under paramaters offered by some of our fans, he'd have been out in Season 3 (not improving year on year, going backwards), and probably Season 5 (stagnating, no improvement). It took him several years to get the team into the Prem, but consistency and belief helped him do it.
Now, is Warbs as good a manager as Warnock? In terms of overall football management, no. In terms of bettering young players specifically, I'd say probably yes (at Sheff U, after clearing out some dead wood in his first season, he went 5 years without selling anyone for any sort of fee until Jagielka was sold just after he left - that says a great deal about his (effective) style (also in evidence when with us)), but in most other respects, Warnock is a better manager. We should question, we should be wondering why we are this low and on such a poor run when he actually had money to spend this season, but I think we can do that without over-simplifying how football clubs work (ie: just buy players at a better stage of development; we should be improving every year) - things are simply not that easy - or everyone would be doing it.
HunterHoop will say anticipate and act early... but what if this season players bed in, Dykes improves and starts scoring in March, and grabs 6 from open play in the last 10 games, and then next season we reinvest again and we're looking at top 8 next season? I get for us this is season after season of roughly the same thing (see Bristol below), but do we punish the current manager for the 'failings' of the previous 4 or 5?
You mention Bristol (a club never promoted to the Prem, mind) as an example, but their last few finishes have been:
18, 17, 11, 8, 12
I mean, that's not a million miles from our record of the last five seasons is it? An 8th placed finish would be wonderful of course, but let's not pretend they're some sort of super club doing amazing things we're not.
The Dykes issue is an interesting one. To me, he looks a good player, and what we needed - a sort of battering ram for the front three behind to play off, as Helguson once was (although he's not at Heidar's level (yet), by any means). Early signs were that's what he was, but he's lacking confidence, he's missing great chances, and his movement and positioning in the box is not helping us. Look at Hugill's goal v Brum last season at home. Look at the near post run he makes for Bright. I'm not sure I've seen Dykes make a near post run all season. I could be wrong, but for all the chat that Chair and BOS don't pass to him, there are very few times when there aren't two defenders between them and him.
There's nothing wrong in questioning, and maybe this whole thread will be moot when Ainsworth's determined side beat us tomorrow, but every appointment we as fans say 'time for consistency, time for something long term, and if we're not top 6 in 18 months, then the manager has to go. It's crazy. |
That's a brilliant post, Antti. Can't disagree with any of it.
To add to it.
1.The Bristol City comparison is very good and they have spent quite a bit most seasons including, of course, recently with Wells.
2.Helguson wasn't an instant success with us either. In fact, I didn't really rate him until Warnock turned up. Then he was brilliant with Tarabt and Faurlin amongst others. I think NW had to get him back from a loan at Watford.
3.The problem isn't should the manager go but more like should we offer him a new contract? | | | |
| Time to go on 14:52 - Dec 18 with 1311 views | daveB |
Know what you mean Antti and was a bit simplistic the way I put it but was just breaking it down to what they want to do, I do get it's not an easy task but we just seem to have gone backwards in the last year.
I should say I'm not actually calling for Warburton to go and don't think all of the problems are down to him. Sacking him won't magically improve this squad but come January when we are going to need to bring in 2/3 players to keep us up imo the club have to decide if Warburton is the right man to do that. | | | |
| Time to go on 15:07 - Dec 18 with 1293 views | aston_hoop |
| Time to go on 10:45 - Dec 18 by themodfather |
if, if we lose at wycombe, let's bring back AInsworth on the coach and set him up, top fella, gave his all to qpr and maybe with Bircham and/or a gallen with him, might get fans on board and start us going. warburton has us playing nice tic-tac football, but it's losing football and we are a results business, yes the reality of ltd spending is with us, but bar a few "wasted" money years it always has been at qpr. ( did we get vfm for the millions spent in the prem? no cup run, few pplayed with heart, commitment and cared for the club and flew the roost asap) |
Worth remembering that at the end of Ainsworth's second season in charge at Wycombe, they finished 22nd in League 2 and avoided relegation on goal difference. It them took them 4 more seasons of mid-table with the occasional challenge to get any success from the team. Does anyone realistically think he'd survive here if that was his second season? |  |
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| Time to go on 15:08 - Dec 18 with 1284 views | stevec |
| Time to go on 13:17 - Dec 18 by daveB |
So what are we to expect then? Go from 13th to 19th and say nothing? Just accept getting worse every year. Eze going wasn't a shock just as Freeman and Smithies going didn't surprise anyone.
The way this model works, the only way it works is if you start with raw players who need a lot of work but have potential, make them better and sell on as we have done with Eze, Freeman and Smithies. You then use the money to bring in players with similar potential but rather than them being in year 1 of their development you want them in year 2 so they are good for us quicker and longer before you sell on and off you go again. By selling Eze and co for big money you can afford players further along in their development. We seem to keep bringing in players in year 1 of their development who will take 18 months to be any good for the price of players who should be in year 2 if that makes sense. Bristol City do it very well as do Brentford.
We spent at least 4 million on strikers, possibly more depending on Kelman fee, 1.5million on dickie, 1 million on Wilock plus a few others. I don't think it's a tough ask to have us competing with the likes of Barnsley, Coventry and luton, we are 9 points behind Barnsley, there is no excuse for that |
Spot on. Print that out, frame it, and send it to the club. |  | | |
| Time to go on 16:02 - Dec 18 with 1224 views | Spaghetti_Hoops |
| Time to go on 13:17 - Dec 18 by daveB |
So what are we to expect then? Go from 13th to 19th and say nothing? Just accept getting worse every year. Eze going wasn't a shock just as Freeman and Smithies going didn't surprise anyone.
The way this model works, the only way it works is if you start with raw players who need a lot of work but have potential, make them better and sell on as we have done with Eze, Freeman and Smithies. You then use the money to bring in players with similar potential but rather than them being in year 1 of their development you want them in year 2 so they are good for us quicker and longer before you sell on and off you go again. By selling Eze and co for big money you can afford players further along in their development. We seem to keep bringing in players in year 1 of their development who will take 18 months to be any good for the price of players who should be in year 2 if that makes sense. Bristol City do it very well as do Brentford.
We spent at least 4 million on strikers, possibly more depending on Kelman fee, 1.5million on dickie, 1 million on Wilock plus a few others. I don't think it's a tough ask to have us competing with the likes of Barnsley, Coventry and luton, we are 9 points behind Barnsley, there is no excuse for that |
Finishing 12th, 18th, 16th, 19th, 13th doesn't sound like getting worse every year to me. With the loss of parachute payments, a large FFP fine to deal with, FFP limits to adhere to, player budgets to slash it seems latterly like a well managed rescue to me.
If the underlying stats told me that we are a relegation team I would be worried. But all the stats (not results) say we have the ability of a lower midtable team. I am confident that we will be OK. Recently we have had a tough schedule and no luck. But for which I think we would be a few places better than we currently are. The pessimists, panic merchants and unrealistic expectations crowd seem to think we are worse. Time will tell. | | | |
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