| Migrant/Refugee crisis 11:04 - Sep 4 with 63220 views | Deano19766 |
Just a thought on this subject which is all over the news saying we are a disgrace and should do more to help -
Oxford English Dictionary definition of Refugee - "A person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster". So when a person flees their country for those reasons they are a refugee (and that is of course a terrible thing to happen to anyone and is yet another sad fact about humanity as a species). However, it could (and should) then be implied that once a 'refugee' passes through a 'safe' country then (s)he is no longer a refugee but a migrant, and most likely a migrant for economic reasons. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but all this rhetoric about taking in 'refugees' is completely misguided or a (deliberate?) misinterpretation of the facts IMO. If people wish to show their support for accommodating these people then that is of course their prerogative, but they should at least be clear that that they support accommodating 'economic migrants' as opposed to 'refugees' (although that would be far less sensationalist and may not suit their agenda). |  | | |  |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 16:41 - Sep 6 with 2930 views | Hadders |
Reading though this fascinating and at times very well informed thread again with more objective eyes, it appears there are a few of us liberal/leftish types who for some reason also like football and the Rs - enough to make a first 11 with a couple of subs, at least. Oh, and of course Alan Johnson is a longstanding fan too - we won`t mention Michael Gove! Sadly, my guess is that you wouldn`t get much joy shaking a bucket for refugees on matchday though.
This is a highly complex mess without simple solutions and I understand the pressures in this country, but I start from a fundamental commitment to fellow humans in extreme need, whatever their nationality. | | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 16:55 - Sep 6 with 2887 views | derbyhoop |
It seems to me hat the vast majority of those who have been caught up in the crisis in Hungary are genuine Syrian refugees. In Syria they are trapped between their own government attacks and the brutality of ISIS. When you see the squalor of those in Budapest station and the bodies washed up on a Turkish beach, it is no longer a Migrant or Refugee crisis but a HUMANITARIAN one.
We do have problems with the infrastructure in the UK in coping with the vast number of new arrivals but, if we want to call ourselves a Christian country (copyright Holloway) then that means offering sanctuary to those in far greater need. And in far greater numbers than we have done to date.
If that marks me out as a liberal leftie, then it's a label I'll happily wear. It's a far more comfortable one than most of the Syrians have to put up with. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 17:32 - Sep 6 with 2838 views | qprphil |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:08 - Sep 4 by Deano19766 |
The problem with those countries is/was you give the people food and money so they survive, then they all have about 5 kids, the population continues to go through the roof, and the same problem continues. You can't help people if they refuse to help themselves. I'm sure all this is the start of humanity heading to extinction soon. If only it would admit the problem and police its numbers everyone could be fine. Won't be pleasant for your grandchildren (not you personally, but generally) when it all comes to an end.
With regards Ex's post, what nonsense that not everyone should work and those of us that do work should pay for the upkeep of others. Why should the 'workers' support people who choose to add to the chaos by having so many children and cannot support them? (7 children. Jesus wept. Just plain wrong IMO).
We live in very dangerous times [Post edited 4 Sep 2015 13:15]
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This is so very true. Also, isis said they would flood Europe with Muslims, to create a Muslim society in 100 years or so. The way things are going, this WILL HAPPEN. Different religions CANT live together, with different beliefs. Some can, but most CANT. I fear for my grandchildren, and there offspring. My father was a Lancaster bomber pilot during the war, he risked his life for this country and my future. People who come here should respect our way of life, and embrace it. If they cant, then don't come. If you want our hospitality, which you do, you like our way of life, which you do, then live like us. You cant tell me that once all these people get settled with there feet under the table they will continue to tow the line. They will have there 5-6 kids, then in a few generations time, we will have there problems in our country, and all the other countries that took them in also. We will go back to there way of life here, because they will be running the country.
It is just many of them way of life. | | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 17:35 - Sep 6 with 2825 views | Northernr |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 17:32 - Sep 6 by qprphil |
This is so very true. Also, isis said they would flood Europe with Muslims, to create a Muslim society in 100 years or so. The way things are going, this WILL HAPPEN. Different religions CANT live together, with different beliefs. Some can, but most CANT. I fear for my grandchildren, and there offspring. My father was a Lancaster bomber pilot during the war, he risked his life for this country and my future. People who come here should respect our way of life, and embrace it. If they cant, then don't come. If you want our hospitality, which you do, you like our way of life, which you do, then live like us. You cant tell me that once all these people get settled with there feet under the table they will continue to tow the line. They will have there 5-6 kids, then in a few generations time, we will have there problems in our country, and all the other countries that took them in also. We will go back to there way of life here, because they will be running the country.
It is just many of them way of life. |
#wayoflife |  | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 17:55 - Sep 6 with 2778 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 17:35 - Sep 6 by Northernr |
#wayoflife |
#MuslamicRayGuns |  | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 18:57 - Sep 6 with 2695 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 11:23 - Sep 6 by QPR_Jim |
Yeah you better get cracking.
I had a rebuttal of sorts but it's not worth flashing you mother in law over. |
I had a rebuttal of sorts but it's not worth flashing you mother in law over.
Possibly the most sensible thing said in a LFW political thread ever. | | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 18:58 - Sep 6 with 2700 views | 1BobbyHazell |
I would like to call out Holloway Ranger and Japimmigrantranger for down voting this post without actually commenting or debating it, and ask them their reasons why. If, as you pretend to claim Holloway, you care so much about our homeless why are you not supporting our using the resources of the super rich who have taken more wealth than they could ever possibly need to provide basic needs for homeless (a fair percentage of whom, as you rightly point out are ex service? If we don't have enough money to look after our own, there is only one place we are going to get it, those who currently have far too much of it. F****** obvious.
Japimmigrantranger, in a later post you talk about your fear for UK based family and friends because of riots. If you know your history, worldwide, you know that such riots generally only occur when the masses have been left too little by the elite having taken too much for themselves. So your comments would be appreciated on the down vote as well. |  | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 19:50 - Sep 6 with 2620 views | kensalriser |
What makes you think they're all uneducated? A high proportion of the Syrian refugees are graduates according to one report I read. Whether true or not, I do believe that what we're seeing now is a mass exodus of the Syrian middle class - the people with education and money enough to be able to flee and have a chance of making a life somewhere else. |  |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 19:55 - Sep 6 with 2602 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
No mate I'm late to the party. | | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 20:05 - Sep 6 with 2598 views | 1BobbyHazell |
What a stupid, attempted point scoring failure of a question to end with? Really pathetic. I would say you are better than that, if I thought it was true. Of course the money should be spent on a poor and the NHS, because in a world where the c*nts t weren't running things that's what money would be for, looking after a society.
I'm not remotely advocating the arrival of millions of uneuducated blokes. The fact that you present it as though it were only a choice of these two extremes is ludicrous. I am, however, advocating the spending of the world's resources on looking after each other rather than it being hoovered up by the few. I appreciate what a lunatic that makes me to some of the more wiser loving souls on here.
The main thrust of my point is - people are insisting that we don't have enough money ( and I mean for us before we even start on immigrants). Well, they may well be right, but we'll only know when we've taken it back from the people who have taken so much from us even in the last 10 years of so-called economic crisis (see the article in my original post).
We have become so governed by this idea we've been fed that there is not enough that it's reached the point where even decent human beings are looking at pictures of children dying on a beach and trying to find excuses for why it's ok or it's those peoples fault. This is not the natural state of affairs, let's get our money and resources back from those who continue to suck up even more of it and then we'll see if we got enough or not. Until then let's not just give away our humanity. [Post edited 6 Sep 2015 20:07]
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 21:05 - Sep 6 with 2493 views | NW5Hoop |
Yeah, economic migrants. Tossers. Send em all back where they came from. Which means, of course, that all the Britons across Europe, in Australia, South Africa, the US, Canada and countless other places will have to be repatriated too.
People always see economic migrants as foreign. But we produce a lot of them. In 2013 there were 141,000 British economic migrants. And that was the lowest numbers since 2001. It's a flood! Britons are swamping the rest of the world as they seek a better life! STOP THEM!
Every time some Phil Collins type leaves the country because of a Labour government's tax plans … that's economic migrant. Every time someone gets offered a better paid job in New York … that's an economic migrants. We just call them expats. | | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis (n/t) on 21:10 - Sep 6 with 2481 views | PunteR |
[Post edited 7 Sep 2015 6:07]
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| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 21:30 - Sep 6 with 2441 views | Hadders |
I agree with everything NW5Hoop says - we take a lot of immigrants, sure, but we shouldn`t forget that there are around 5 million British-born citizens living abroad. It seems to me that too few Brits currently appreciate the possible benefits of open borders in Europe for themselves and their families. Apart from young Britons now going to Germany for the much cheaper housing and so on, the same logic that brings eastern Europeans here could lead to many more Brits heading in the opposite direction, for early retirement or whatever. I`m guessing that a nice apartment on the Dalmatian coast of Croatia or overlooking the Black Sea in Bulgaria or Romania looks very affordable after London prices. As a nation, we are hopeless at languages and that needs to be pushed in schools, but the fact that English is the de facto common language of Europe should surely work to our advantage, too, making Europe seem more welcoming. The more people feel confident about moving aboard, even temporarily, and experience the benefits, the more they are likely to see themselves as "Europeans" as well as English or British, and to appreciate the advantages of open borders. [Post edited 6 Sep 2015 21:34]
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 21:58 - Sep 6 with 2383 views | HollowayRanger |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 18:58 - Sep 6 by 1BobbyHazell |
I would like to call out Holloway Ranger and Japimmigrantranger for down voting this post without actually commenting or debating it, and ask them their reasons why. If, as you pretend to claim Holloway, you care so much about our homeless why are you not supporting our using the resources of the super rich who have taken more wealth than they could ever possibly need to provide basic needs for homeless (a fair percentage of whom, as you rightly point out are ex service? If we don't have enough money to look after our own, there is only one place we are going to get it, those who currently have far too much of it. F****** obvious.
Japimmigrantranger, in a later post you talk about your fear for UK based family and friends because of riots. If you know your history, worldwide, you know that such riots generally only occur when the masses have been left too little by the elite having taken too much for themselves. So your comments would be appreciated on the down vote as well. |
I support the homeless the young and the old aged its called paying tax I don't like seeing it spent overseas ,we don't live in a state where those that don't have ,have the right to take from those that do if we did there would be chaos ,that said I hate the bankers and the mp's and their hangers on as much as the next guy I pray for the day blair stands trial failing that stops breathing
voted you down as we clearly DONT have the resources we have thousands of homeless already on the streets we have waiting lists in the tens of thousands already for homes, over crowded under funded schools ,over worked in debt hospitals where just now 15 cancer treatments have just had their funding stopped, old people living in poverty and plenty of unemployed ,oh and all the prisons are full as well (1 in 8 of which is a foreigner) if we sorted out all the above first then anything and everything after that could be used to help others but till then I say no to 15,000 or whatever the toal will be coming here and draining our resources even more |  |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 22:27 - Sep 6 with 2351 views | WilloW4 |
Are you going to move to Bulgaria then? |  | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 22:50 - Sep 6 with 3423 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 21:58 - Sep 6 by HollowayRanger |
I support the homeless the young and the old aged its called paying tax I don't like seeing it spent overseas ,we don't live in a state where those that don't have ,have the right to take from those that do if we did there would be chaos ,that said I hate the bankers and the mp's and their hangers on as much as the next guy I pray for the day blair stands trial failing that stops breathing
voted you down as we clearly DONT have the resources we have thousands of homeless already on the streets we have waiting lists in the tens of thousands already for homes, over crowded under funded schools ,over worked in debt hospitals where just now 15 cancer treatments have just had their funding stopped, old people living in poverty and plenty of unemployed ,oh and all the prisons are full as well (1 in 8 of which is a foreigner) if we sorted out all the above first then anything and everything after that could be used to help others but till then I say no to 15,000 or whatever the toal will be coming here and draining our resources even more |
So you've written a long list of areas of our society that are desperately underfunded and yet in your opening paragraph you say we live in a state where we are not allowed to take off those who have too much ( and are increasing how much they have) to cover that underfunding. That's not very clever thinking Holloway.
We are never going to improve those areas of our society(forget about desperate immigrants) without stopping the super rich from continually taking more from us. Quite how you can't see that is beyond me.
All that underfunding, hospitals in debt, 'austerity' etc has been happening while the rich get richer. That's what my original link was about. You clearly didn't read it.
If you don't think we should have any immigrants here, that's fine, but don't think that any of those problems you listed will be dealt with in any other way than taking the money and resources back from those who are taking it from us. | | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis (n/t) on 22:53 - Sep 6 with 3403 views | WilloW4 |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 22:50 - Sep 6 by 1BobbyHazell |
So you've written a long list of areas of our society that are desperately underfunded and yet in your opening paragraph you say we live in a state where we are not allowed to take off those who have too much ( and are increasing how much they have) to cover that underfunding. That's not very clever thinking Holloway.
We are never going to improve those areas of our society(forget about desperate immigrants) without stopping the super rich from continually taking more from us. Quite how you can't see that is beyond me.
All that underfunding, hospitals in debt, 'austerity' etc has been happening while the rich get richer. That's what my original link was about. You clearly didn't read it.
If you don't think we should have any immigrants here, that's fine, but don't think that any of those problems you listed will be dealt with in any other way than taking the money and resources back from those who are taking it from us. |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis (n/t) on 22:57 - Sep 6 with 3391 views | WilloW4 |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis (n/t) on 22:53 - Sep 6 by WilloW4 |
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I digress.. Just seeing Bobby hazells name brings back great memories .. Loved watching him for the R's... FA cup semi final at Highbury.. He was great.!! | | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 23:11 - Sep 6 with 3356 views | HollowayRanger |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 22:50 - Sep 6 by 1BobbyHazell |
So you've written a long list of areas of our society that are desperately underfunded and yet in your opening paragraph you say we live in a state where we are not allowed to take off those who have too much ( and are increasing how much they have) to cover that underfunding. That's not very clever thinking Holloway.
We are never going to improve those areas of our society(forget about desperate immigrants) without stopping the super rich from continually taking more from us. Quite how you can't see that is beyond me.
All that underfunding, hospitals in debt, 'austerity' etc has been happening while the rich get richer. That's what my original link was about. You clearly didn't read it.
If you don't think we should have any immigrants here, that's fine, but don't think that any of those problems you listed will be dealt with in any other way than taking the money and resources back from those who are taking it from us. |
my mums a immigrant
whoops
as for not agreeing with just taking off those that have money how would you do that ? royal familys got a load of money so do we kick tham out? could put a couple of hundred migrants in the palace and another 500 in winsor castle that's not a bad start just another 14,300 beds to find
I got a £500,000 flat should I lose that? I worked and helped paid for it
lets just agree to disagree you want to open the doors to those that want to come here and wish to take from the rich to pay for it
I don't I want us to put our own people first second and third
somehow I think we will both end up losing | |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis (n/t) on 23:49 - Sep 6 with 3311 views | batmanhoop |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 21:05 - Sep 6 by NW5Hoop |
Yeah, economic migrants. Tossers. Send em all back where they came from. Which means, of course, that all the Britons across Europe, in Australia, South Africa, the US, Canada and countless other places will have to be repatriated too.
People always see economic migrants as foreign. But we produce a lot of them. In 2013 there were 141,000 British economic migrants. And that was the lowest numbers since 2001. It's a flood! Britons are swamping the rest of the world as they seek a better life! STOP THEM!
Every time some Phil Collins type leaves the country because of a Labour government's tax plans … that's economic migrant. Every time someone gets offered a better paid job in New York … that's an economic migrants. We just call them expats. |
I would suggest there is a big difference in 5 million emigrating in 50 years spread over the globe, to 8 million coming to a small country like ours . But I suppose it's an alternative argument to the usual 'if it wasn't for immigration the NHS would collapse' spin [Post edited 7 Sep 2015 8:07]
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis (n/t) on 00:21 - Sep 7 with 3253 views | PunteR |
[Post edited 7 Sep 2015 6:07]
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| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis (n/t) on 00:53 - Sep 7 with 3225 views | kensalriser |
Bang out of order putting that on here. [Post edited 7 Sep 2015 1:00]
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