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I just watched the whole 50 minutes of the meeting and on the whole it actually seemed to be going well and encouraging between the two Presidents then (39:54 in the video below) Trump said to the journalists "one more question..." and at this point JD Vance, who was not involved but started getting himself more and more involved in the closing 20 minutes, suddenly decides to jump in and take centre stage, loses the plot and absolutely kicked things off and was acting like it was an election rally and butt-sucking up to Trump big style.
Trump really should have jumped in and said "OK, lets take this offline and discuss privately. Thank you everyone for a good meeting, see you soon" and ended it there. Unfortunately he allowed it to carry on and allowed himself to get sucked in and the whole thing escalated. Vance must have been delighted.
During that heated exchange JD Vance copied Trump's hand gesture style, particularly where Trump holds his thumb and middle finger together while pointing with his index finger. I looked at other videos of Vance and it wasn't as prominent, if at all.
Seeing the whole video, Vance is absolutely the instigator in it all kicking off and triggering Trump. It was totally unnecessary as there was nothing that led for the need for that to happen. Absolutely deliberate sh@t stirring of the highest order. Sat back at the end with a smug look on his face.
In the 40 odd years I've been going to Loftus Road I don't think I have ever once bought a beer. Partly because I always drive there, partly because it's pizz water, partly because it's always been expensive, partly because I don't want to queue for ages and partly because I don't want to keep going to the toilet.
When I was an STer in R block had this family next to me (they had to get past me to get to their seats) who always turned up 5 mins after kick off (as they always had to get that 'last one in' at the pub beforehand), left halfway through the first half to go for a pizz, came back, left 5 mins before halftime to 'get a beer in', turned up 5 mins after second half kick off, left halfway through to go for a pizz again, came back, left 5 mins before full time to 'get to the pub first'.
No might about it, that is what the US want. They were hoping Zelensky would sign the deal last week but without any assurances of security against Putin. When the US wouldn't give this, he wouldn't sign. Who can blame him.
This is what Lindsay Graham was talking about after the meeting. He was basically complaining that Zelensky hadn't signed the resources deal so they could then discuss afterwards the security aspects. Once the deal signed, that weakens Zelensky massively as he has no bargaining chip (or 'cards') and is what infuriated Trump because he didn't get what he wanted and had a tantrum.
Something else I noticed, if I may, towards the end of the spat last Friday..... Trump looked at the people in front of him and said "It’s going to be very hard to do business like this".
This is the problem, it's not business. It's politics/diplomacy. I don't even think it's a turn of phrase either, he really does mean 'business'. This I think is why Vance blew up when Zelensky asked what the diplomacy was because they don't know, they don't do diplomacy. They probably don't even know how to because they do business and business that is entirely on their terms with no regards for the consequences of that to other parties.
So, their idea of peace is for Ukraine to lose 20% of it's land, it's natural resources and still have the threat of further incursion from Putin into their land.
Sure, it'll mean people will stop dying, for now, but at huge cost to the country and its people.
If it does mean it's over you can bet your bottom dollar Trump will claim to be a glorious peacekeeper and Putin will absolutely milk it for all he's worth. How he oversaw a glorious victory and 'protected' the sovereign motherland & liberated the Russian Donbas area (remember the clearly rigged 2014 referendum that voted 96.2% in favour of the Donbas aligning to Russia?) and will, as said above, use the time to regroup and go again in a few years.
“In an interview with Fox News a few hours ago, Vice-President JD Vance said the door was open for Ukraine to return to negotiations if Zelensky "is willing to seriously talk peace".
When he is ready to talk about what he is prepared to give up, Vance said, President Trump will be the first person to pick up the phone.”
That’s it in a nutshell. Ukraine have lost Donbas and if Zelensky agrees to give it up are the US willing to offer support should Putin decide to go west again or is the door now open for him to do that in the future without retaliation once he’s reorganised?
A couple of good friends of mine fell out over a car. Personally i’d never recommend a specific vehicle that is for sale or sell one to anyone i know as it’s just fraught with problems.
I didn’t have a good experience with my estate agent five years ago as despite paying them a lot of money it was clear they were trying to push an agenda that was to their benefit and not mine, you know, the client.
Good luck to him in both aspects, he’s gonna need it!
I agree about the US missile thing, that was worrying, but I don’t agree Trump wants ‘peace’ per see. He wants money, resources etc etc and ‘peace’ is just the leverage. He will agree to any kind of ‘leverage’ just as long as it gets him what he wants.
If he really wanted peace why didn’t he allow Vance to answer Zelensky’s question about defining diplomacy? That surely is part of trying to fathom out peace.
As far as people here being worried about Vance, aren’t you?
Let’s say Zelensky did play Biden and Trump decided not to have any of that, just pick up the phone and say “you’re not getting away with that with me, no more gravy train” But no, he deliberately set it up to publicly humiliate him.
If Jules Winnfield (Pulp Fiction) starts to quote you Ezekiel 25:17, you’re dead If Putin’s henchmen start taking you to the top floor of a hospital, you’re about to accidentally fall out of a window If Trump asks you to appear on live TV, he’s about to humiliate you
Graham was going on about not discussing certain things in the meeting before the resources deal was signed but if the meeting was not to discuss such matters then what was it for?
I’ve already seen on social media plenty of Americans who are totally on Trump and Vance’s side and plenty not. It really divided the country. Those in favour are coming from the “close the borders, stop immigration, MAGA, we need to sort ourselves out first before helping others” etc. Plenty in the UK feel the same here. Thing is, Trump is trying to do both by pretending to ‘help others’ when what he really means is selling. He doesn’t do charity, he does deals and deals that are to his benefit, “we’ll help you if you hand over all your resources”. It’s why businessmen/women shouldn’t be Presidents.
It should have been private but in a way I’m glad it wasn’t as Trump, Vance, Graham etc have shown who they really are, if it wasn’t clear already. Will be interesting if there are any moderate Republicans who may feel differently now.
Russia hasn’t been ‘red’ (or commie) for over 20-30 years.
Putin and Trump are different ends of the same stick. Both in it for themselves under the pretence of being for the good of their country. They are both exploiting and pillaging their own land and people as well as anything else they can grab. That’s why Trump likes Putin, except that I think Putin is more canny than Trump and will get the better of him one day (though hopefully not).
As well as my other observations earlier in the thread, there was a moment when Zelenskyy was saying Vance was talking loud, which he was, and Trump jumped in and said he wasn’t being loud and started to tell him off like a child. This is how he operates.
It almost feels like the US and Russia will start to align and Europe will be stuck in the middle. We just have to hang on for four years until Trump leaves. He can’t get voted in again can he?
Did they buy the printed filter paper from a company in Somerset (or thereabouts) called Imperial Tobacco? (again, or similar name… it was over 35 years ago!) If so, I worked at the ink company that sold them the ink! It was astonishing how much ink was used each week and i tried to calculate how many cigarettes it produced and the number was staggering. Each and every week.
Trump and Vance were talking to him like he was a child and wanted him to grovel and beg to them.
Vance said “say ‘thank you’ say ‘thank you’”… this is a form of coercive control. I had flashbacks to when an old girlfriend threatened me in order to say “sorry” for something (I hadn’t done). I realised then it was all about control rather than whatever i was meant to apologise for, that didn’t matter. Didn’t last long and nor will this.
“You come to the Oval Office and disrespect us….” total ambush.
Trump has no interest in facts, just over exaggerates everything for impact. Keeps saying they’ve provided $350billion in aid when it’s not even half that. What they have provided is good, without doubt, but get it right at least.
Gets dates wrong, says in started (Crimea) in 2015 and had to be reminded, twice i think, it was 2014.
Whatever people’s view on the whole situation in Ukraine is, you cannot have world leaders behaving like this, its appalling. They are effectively trying to force him out. You then had Lindsay Graham wading in afterwards.
Trump is putting words into Zelenskys mouth by suggesting he doesn’t want peace. What’s really going on here is whatever form peace comes in, it has to be on Trumps terms and to Trumps benefit. Thats why Lindsay Graham was saying afterwards that he “did not believe Zelensky should have brought up ceasefires or security concerns ahead of the deal.” Of course not, they want to sign a deal on their terms only before any of that is discussed so it becomes void by then.
Unless there’s some big turnaround somewhere, Zelenksky will have lost the US support and have to decide to continue without it or stand down and let someone else do it, but they’ll just end up being a Trump puppet.
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