| Game Management or Cheating? 17:53 - Nov 4 with 7334 views | A_Newby |
Whilst watching a frustrating, boring, poor entertainment football match with lots of annoying and ever increasing “game management” tactics (which I think is just a euphemism for cheating) some of us were discussing what rule changes could be made to stop or at least reduce this.
I was reminded of a discussion on TV a few years back by a panel of football pundits about rule changes that had occurred during their careers that they thought were improvements and the only two they could all agree on were:
1. 3 points for a win (not really a football rule but a change that improved the game.)
2. The back pass rule that stopped keepers from picking up the ball.
They did also mention the rule of a yellow card for taking off your shirt during a goal celebration. Opinion was split on this, but they all agreed that it was clear cut and one of the easiest newer rules to understand. If you took your shirt off you would be booked, no referee interpretation or opinion needed.
I then started thinking what other clear cut rule changes that could be introduced to reduce the irritating so called “game management” tactics employed by clubs including the Dale.
My suggestion would be
If a free kick or throw in has been awarded to a team, then any opposition player (including off field substitutes, team managers and support staff) who subsequently deliberately touches the ball before the free kick or throw in has been taken are to receive an instant yellow card.
This could be a player holding onto the ball, kicking, or throwing the ball away or even “passing the ball” back to the opposing team. Make the rule very simple and clear cut if a free kick / throw in has been awarded against your team you do not touch the ball for ANY reason until after the free kick or throw in has been taken. If you do then it is an instant yellow card, with no interpretation or opinion by the referee.
Does anyone else have suggestions for rule changes they would like to see implemented? |  | | |  |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 18:19 - Nov 4 with 5627 views | DaleiLama |
It's totally impractical, but in a similar vein, for anything other than head or serious injuries, get the stretcher on and the player off within a minute of the player going down during the last half hour of a game for the team leading. Treatment takes place off the pitch and each time the stretcher comes on a mandatory minute extra time is added. The magic "quick recovery" would be rewarded with a slow signal to return to the field of play by the ref. Conversely, lengthy treatment could be followed by a quick return. I can dream. |  |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 18:31 - Nov 4 with 5601 views | AtThePeake |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 18:19 - Nov 4 by DaleiLama |
It's totally impractical, but in a similar vein, for anything other than head or serious injuries, get the stretcher on and the player off within a minute of the player going down during the last half hour of a game for the team leading. Treatment takes place off the pitch and each time the stretcher comes on a mandatory minute extra time is added. The magic "quick recovery" would be rewarded with a slow signal to return to the field of play by the ref. Conversely, lengthy treatment could be followed by a quick return. I can dream. |
Massively agree with this one. The whole pantomime of a player having to 'leave the field for treatment' when they've clearly just been treated for 2 minutes and are absolutely now ready to continue playing is just farcical. I can't believe they still continue with it.
One thing that I think isn't particularly noticeable but would reduce time-wasting to some degree would be for substitutions only to be made when the set-piece is for your team. It can be a complete momentum-killer for a team to win themselves a corner or a free-kick in a dangerous area but then they have to wait for the opposition to make a slow substitution that takes the sting out of the situation and calms the crowd down.
Another one that wouldn't particularly be a rule but just one for the referees themselves to think about. When will they stop TELLING players to not time-waste but start booking them immediately for doing it? At Bradford the other week, one of their players was taking an age to take a free-kick just after the second goal. The referee wandered over and chatted to him for 20-30 seconds, but failed to book him, therefore simply aiding the player by wasting yet more time. The Bradford player must have been delighted and as I'm sure anyone who was in the away end will have heard, my head came clean off. |  |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 18:32 - Nov 4 with 5598 views | ArthurDaley |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 18:19 - Nov 4 by DaleiLama |
It's totally impractical, but in a similar vein, for anything other than head or serious injuries, get the stretcher on and the player off within a minute of the player going down during the last half hour of a game for the team leading. Treatment takes place off the pitch and each time the stretcher comes on a mandatory minute extra time is added. The magic "quick recovery" would be rewarded with a slow signal to return to the field of play by the ref. Conversely, lengthy treatment could be followed by a quick return. I can dream. |
The magic quick recovery we had when i played for one team , was the so called trainer came on with his ice cold magic sponge. And wherever you got injured you got the sponge in the same place straight between the legs. You were soon up after that. |  |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 19:00 - Nov 4 with 5538 views | boromat |
Opposition physio's treat players on the pitch. So our physio treats the opposition and vice versa plus the game continues unless deemed too severe ie head injury. If the ball hits them then same rule as the ball hitting the ref applies. |  |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 19:14 - Nov 4 with 5503 views | TomRAFC |
AtThePeake makes a good point about enforcing the time wasting rule properly.
I'd like to see a similar level of enforcement of rules around diving. Too often I see a situation which is either a dive or a penalty but the referee opts to make no decision. They can't be easy calls to make but that's the role of the referee. | |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 19:22 - Nov 4 with 5454 views | mikehunt |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 19:00 - Nov 4 by boromat |
Opposition physio's treat players on the pitch. So our physio treats the opposition and vice versa plus the game continues unless deemed too severe ie head injury. If the ball hits them then same rule as the ball hitting the ref applies. |
Time wasting would become a thing of the past if the clock was stopped when the ball was out of play. You would probably have to reduce each half to half an hour or so, too: players wouldn’t be used to actually running around for 90 mins. |  |
| The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance. |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 19:41 - Nov 4 with 5421 views | TVOS1907 |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 19:14 - Nov 4 by TomRAFC |
AtThePeake makes a good point about enforcing the time wasting rule properly.
I'd like to see a similar level of enforcement of rules around diving. Too often I see a situation which is either a dive or a penalty but the referee opts to make no decision. They can't be easy calls to make but that's the role of the referee. |
There are a couple of problems there, Tom.
1. Players have become more adept than ever at winning penalties, free-kicks and exaggerating injury. This "they felt a touch and had a right to go down" nonsense doesn't help. Steve Whitehall would have had a field day now!
[Which reminds me, did you see that ludicrous display from that Ajax player last night, for example? He rolled over more times than a five-year-old rolling down the hill at Hare Hill Park!]
2. The officials have to be 100% sure it's simulation, otherwise they are effectively accusing a player of cheating. People in football ("Football people") moan enough about their precious players being wronged, so there will have to be a high degree of split-second certainty in the mind of the officials over such calls.
3. Fans need educating that if it's not a foul, it doesn't automatically mean it's a dive or the player is cheating. ("CHEAT! CHEAT! CHEAT!"). It is possible for a penalty area incident to be neither a foul, nor simulation.
Football is a contact sport and contact can be made without infringing the Laws. Such contact might cause players to over-balance or fall over through momentum or actually through losing momentum. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 19:42 - Nov 4 with 5420 views | jonahwhereru |
Agree with the injury option.. the free kick one is more difficult it would mean quick breaks would result in more goals, As the defending team would have less time to get back. Could be persuaded either way.
My offer is that any throw in regardless of the score or game time must be taken within five second of the team taking the throw in being in possession of the ball. By that I mean it can be at the foot of the team or to hand. The throw going to the opposition if longer taken.. It would mean more time with the ball on the pitch, and no prancing around then waiting for someone to else to takeover . Plus it would curtail the long throw into a crowded box, which is an element of the game I am not enamoured with. | | | |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 20:10 - Nov 4 with 5359 views | boromat |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 19:22 - Nov 4 by mikehunt |
Time wasting would become a thing of the past if the clock was stopped when the ball was out of play. You would probably have to reduce each half to half an hour or so, too: players wouldn’t be used to actually running around for 90 mins. |
I'm not sure about the the clock being stopped just means you get the correct amount of added time. What it would actually do is enable a 'legalise' the stopping and slowing down of the game by any means.
If you think about the game from a neutrals perspective you don't want stoppages you want the game played at a reasonable pace. | |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 21:40 - Nov 4 with 5237 views | HullDale |
I'd still like to see a 'sin bin' tried for yellow cards... essentially if you get booked you are on the sidelines for a set period of time (5/10 minutes) before rejoining. Another yellow and its a red as is today.
Too often yellows are given for 'professional fouls' or whatever the current terminology is, and there is no real benefit to the team who have been fouled. If anything, its another random team
who reaps the benefit at a later date if the fouling player accumulates a certain amount of cards within the given timeframe. |  | | |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 23:18 - Nov 4 with 5105 views | fermin |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 21:40 - Nov 4 by HullDale |
I'd still like to see a 'sin bin' tried for yellow cards... essentially if you get booked you are on the sidelines for a set period of time (5/10 minutes) before rejoining. Another yellow and its a red as is today.
Too often yellows are given for 'professional fouls' or whatever the current terminology is, and there is no real benefit to the team who have been fouled. If anything, its another random team
who reaps the benefit at a later date if the fouling player accumulates a certain amount of cards within the given timeframe. |
This has already been introduced in grassroots football for certain offences so it might come in higher up at some point.
https://www.thefa.com/get-involved/respect/sin-bins |  | | |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 00:20 - Nov 5 with 5058 views | D_Alien |
On the subject of dissent, it was good to see the ref sending off the Athletico Madrid player against Liverpool the other night
After being yellow-carded for a foul, the AM player just walked away and refused to go back to have his name taken. A second yellow was given for his repeated refusal
All too often, the ref will chase after the player, potentially undermining themselves in doing so
[Post edited 5 Nov 2021 0:21]
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 09:08 - Nov 5 with 4843 views | 49thseason |
If referees actually used the powers they have a number of time-wasting elements could be driven out of the game. Kicking the ball away from the site of a free kick being a glaring example. I have seen a player do this 3 or 4 times during a game, when did anyone get booked for it?.....
"A player is cautioned if guilty of:
delaying the restart of play ( by kicking the ball away - my interrpretation)
dissent by word or action
entering, re-entering or deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee’s permission
failing to respect the required distance when play is restarted with a dropped ball, corner kick, free kick or throw-in
persistent offences (no specific number or pattern of offences constitutes “persistent”)
unsporting behaviour" |  | | |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 10:13 - Nov 5 with 4782 views | AtThePeake |
I coach a Sunday League side in a league where this is a ruling. Unfortunately I've only seen it applied once and it was terribly done, with the ref sinbinning a player for 2 minutes before half-time but then allowing him to come back on for the second half. | |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 10:29 - Nov 5 with 4736 views | A_Newby |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 10:13 - Nov 5 by AtThePeake |
I coach a Sunday League side in a league where this is a ruling. Unfortunately I've only seen it applied once and it was terribly done, with the ref sinbinning a player for 2 minutes before half-time but then allowing him to come back on for the second half. |
I have recently seen an example of “sin binning” although I didn’t know it was this at the time. Whilst out walking I watched the end of a game of 7 a side football being played between two teams of about 10-year-old players.
At one point in the match whilst I was watching, the ball was lobbed forward and the keeper came out of his area to clear it, he kicked the ball and it hit an oncoming forward in the face. I was then surprised when the referee awarded a free kick to the attacking side and showed the keeper a card and sent him off.
I thought he had been sent off because the opposition player had been hit in the face with the ball. Another player went in the goal and the match continued. About 10 minutes later the original keeper who had been sent off returned to the pitch as an outfield player.
Confused after the match I asked what happened. The referee explained that they have their own rules, one of which is that the keeper is not allowed to leave their penalty area. If they do, they get a yellow card for the first offence then sent off (sin binned) for 10 minutes for a second offence. They said it made the game better. | | | |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 10:40 - Nov 5 with 4716 views | Bazzanne |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 10:29 - Nov 5 by A_Newby |
I have recently seen an example of “sin binning” although I didn’t know it was this at the time. Whilst out walking I watched the end of a game of 7 a side football being played between two teams of about 10-year-old players.
At one point in the match whilst I was watching, the ball was lobbed forward and the keeper came out of his area to clear it, he kicked the ball and it hit an oncoming forward in the face. I was then surprised when the referee awarded a free kick to the attacking side and showed the keeper a card and sent him off.
I thought he had been sent off because the opposition player had been hit in the face with the ball. Another player went in the goal and the match continued. About 10 minutes later the original keeper who had been sent off returned to the pitch as an outfield player.
Confused after the match I asked what happened. The referee explained that they have their own rules, one of which is that the keeper is not allowed to leave their penalty area. If they do, they get a yellow card for the first offence then sent off (sin binned) for 10 minutes for a second offence. They said it made the game better. |
You could also stop goalkeepers wasting time with goal kicks if after a warning the next time the ball was given to the opposition and a corner awarded. | | | |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 11:37 - Nov 5 with 4653 views | A_Newby |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 09:08 - Nov 5 by 49thseason |
If referees actually used the powers they have a number of time-wasting elements could be driven out of the game. Kicking the ball away from the site of a free kick being a glaring example. I have seen a player do this 3 or 4 times during a game, when did anyone get booked for it?.....
"A player is cautioned if guilty of:
delaying the restart of play ( by kicking the ball away - my interrpretation)
dissent by word or action
entering, re-entering or deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee’s permission
failing to respect the required distance when play is restarted with a dropped ball, corner kick, free kick or throw-in
persistent offences (no specific number or pattern of offences constitutes “persistent”)
unsporting behaviour" |
Hi 49th
Your interpretation of the rules are correct.
From further down the FA rules.
DELAYING THE RESTART OF PLAY
Referees must caution players who delay the restart of play by:
- appearing to take a throw-in but suddenly leaving it to a team-mate to take
- delaying leaving the field of play when being substituted
- excessively delaying a restart
- kicking or carrying the ball away, or provoking a confrontation by deliberately touching the ball after the referee has stopped play
- taking a free kick from the wrong position to force a retake
[Post edited 5 Nov 2021 11:43]
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 11:40 - Nov 5 with 4646 views | TomRAFC |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 19:41 - Nov 4 by TVOS1907 |
There are a couple of problems there, Tom.
1. Players have become more adept than ever at winning penalties, free-kicks and exaggerating injury. This "they felt a touch and had a right to go down" nonsense doesn't help. Steve Whitehall would have had a field day now!
[Which reminds me, did you see that ludicrous display from that Ajax player last night, for example? He rolled over more times than a five-year-old rolling down the hill at Hare Hill Park!]
2. The officials have to be 100% sure it's simulation, otherwise they are effectively accusing a player of cheating. People in football ("Football people") moan enough about their precious players being wronged, so there will have to be a high degree of split-second certainty in the mind of the officials over such calls.
3. Fans need educating that if it's not a foul, it doesn't automatically mean it's a dive or the player is cheating. ("CHEAT! CHEAT! CHEAT!"). It is possible for a penalty area incident to be neither a foul, nor simulation.
Football is a contact sport and contact can be made without infringing the Laws. Such contact might cause players to over-balance or fall over through momentum or actually through losing momentum. |
All excellent points, I was by no means suggesting that there aren't times contact has occured with no infringement of the rules. There are however instances when an infringement has occured and no decision is given eitherway. Referees are understandably reticent to accuse people of cheating, however decisions around diving are part of their role.
As for Steve Whitehall, he missed 2 penalties during my first Dale game! I did forgive him when he brought round the after eights at a trust curry night, not that I mentioned it. [Post edited 5 Nov 2021 11:44]
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 12:01 - Nov 5 with 4602 views | TVOS1907 |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 09:08 - Nov 5 by 49thseason |
If referees actually used the powers they have a number of time-wasting elements could be driven out of the game. Kicking the ball away from the site of a free kick being a glaring example. I have seen a player do this 3 or 4 times during a game, when did anyone get booked for it?.....
"A player is cautioned if guilty of:
delaying the restart of play ( by kicking the ball away - my interrpretation)
dissent by word or action
entering, re-entering or deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee’s permission
failing to respect the required distance when play is restarted with a dropped ball, corner kick, free kick or throw-in
persistent offences (no specific number or pattern of offences constitutes “persistent”)
unsporting behaviour" |
Problem is, officials are then accused of knowing the rules (even though they are actually called Laws), but not knowing the game. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 12:30 - Nov 5 with 4556 views | jonahwhereru |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 00:20 - Nov 5 by D_Alien |
On the subject of dissent, it was good to see the ref sending off the Athletico Madrid player against Liverpool the other night
After being yellow-carded for a foul, the AM player just walked away and refused to go back to have his name taken. A second yellow was given for his repeated refusal
All too often, the ref will chase after the player, potentially undermining themselves in doing so
[Post edited 5 Nov 2021 0:21]
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Dissent is like the forgotten waste of time in a game, regardless of if a team is winning or loosing. Minutes can be lost with a ref calming players down, then getting rid of unwanted contributors before speaking to the concerned parties. The idea of speak to just the player with the captain present seems to have withered away.
I favour having the refs mic’d up like in Rugby. Dissent just isn’t an issue in that game. So no reason for it to be in Football. If mic’d and a ref told a player/s to go away and they didn’t there is evidence to justify a booking for non compliance. It would soon settle down if no exceptions were made, and there would be more time with the ball in play. Granted that’s sometimes is less entertaining than watching a row.
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 12:40 - Nov 5 with 4538 views | TVOS1907 |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 12:30 - Nov 5 by jonahwhereru |
Dissent is like the forgotten waste of time in a game, regardless of if a team is winning or loosing. Minutes can be lost with a ref calming players down, then getting rid of unwanted contributors before speaking to the concerned parties. The idea of speak to just the player with the captain present seems to have withered away.
I favour having the refs mic’d up like in Rugby. Dissent just isn’t an issue in that game. So no reason for it to be in Football. If mic’d and a ref told a player/s to go away and they didn’t there is evidence to justify a booking for non compliance. It would soon settle down if no exceptions were made, and there would be more time with the ball in play. Granted that’s sometimes is less entertaining than watching a row.
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I doubt clubs and players would want Joe Public to hear some of the stuff they come out with.
I'm vehemently against all forms of rugby, but it works there because the players are significantly more respectful. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 13:44 - Nov 5 with 4416 views | James1980 |
Kicking ball away should = yellow card (agree that yellows should result in sin bin)
Throw in should be taken within a specified timescale by first player to pick the ball up. None of this hot potato nonsense.
Time to take a goal kick timed by fourth official time-wasting should incur warning subsequent procrastination a yellow card (not sure about sin bin for keepers). Additional time wasting a second yellow and a red. | |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 13:50 - Nov 5 with 4405 views | D_Alien |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 12:40 - Nov 5 by TVOS1907 |
I doubt clubs and players would want Joe Public to hear some of the stuff they come out with.
I'm vehemently against all forms of rugby, but it works there because the players are significantly more respectful. |
*NFR*
When you say you're against rugby, would you have it banned?
My daughter plays for Sefton Ladies - promoted to the National League for the first time just before Covid struck so have yet to take their place. It's a fantastic sporting outlet for all shapes and sizes, who might not have the technical skill to play football
(She's plays the Flanker position, a Tom Curry type, before anyone asks!) Also coaches the Juniors | |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 14:06 - Nov 5 with 4371 views | TVOS1907 |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 13:50 - Nov 5 by D_Alien |
*NFR*
When you say you're against rugby, would you have it banned?
My daughter plays for Sefton Ladies - promoted to the National League for the first time just before Covid struck so have yet to take their place. It's a fantastic sporting outlet for all shapes and sizes, who might not have the technical skill to play football
(She's plays the Flanker position, a Tom Curry type, before anyone asks!) Also coaches the Juniors |
Yes, I'd have it banished from the universe.
And tuna. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Game Management or Cheating? on 14:46 - Nov 5 with 4313 views | D_Alien |
| Game Management or Cheating? on 14:06 - Nov 5 by TVOS1907 |
Yes, I'd have it banished from the universe.
And tuna. |
There's rugby being played by aliens right now, in another universe, with tuna sandwiches at half time | |
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