Perhaps the hardest Verdict I have had to write in several years as Saints continue to commit the same errors both in selection and formation, that gives little hope that we can pull out of this.

In the preview for this game on Friday I spoke for the need to play square pegs in square holes and shore up certain key areas, Nigel Adkins team selections did none of this and indeed completely baffled me.

Those who have read these previews and verdicts will notice that in the main I am quite consistent in the way I think we should set out a team and make selections, whatever the formations I have always talked about playing players in their true positions, not playing people out of position just to give them a game, but perhaps more importantly not panicking in those selections, by that I mean that a good player doesnt become a bad player over night and vice versa.

So far this season I have not castigated Nigel Adkins as much as perhaps he needs to be, I have allowed him a lot of leeway, partly due to the fact that I feel he deserves his chance to show that he can manage at this level and partly because of the difficult job I know he has after many of his transfer targets werent signed, but although that is a big reason why Adkins has to be given leeway in the fact he is not in charge of his own destiny, the fact of the matter is in the main he is still picking the same players in the same positions who are making the same errors and on Saturday I think he has gone a step too far.

Its fine for the manager to be moan poor defending, yes he is right it did cost us the game, but he picked those players who defended so poorly.

Many would concur that our weakest position is at centre half, that being the case why play all three of them in the same back four and one of them out of position at left back, square pegs in square holes, OK he might have been a bit hand tied in the fact that Fox was injured, but he had other options in that position and given we knew that the Hammers tactics would be to get men down the flanks and balls into the box for Carroll, to play Yoshida there was suicide.

The first goal was pure Saints defending as shown week in week out, a fairly simple ball into the box from a free kick 35 yards out saw Boruc on his debut indecisive and none of the central defenders took charge of the situation and the ball carried on through to go in off the far post, if that was bad the second was perhaps worse, Yoshida was beaten to the ball by Benayoun, in truth that was going to happen at sometime with the Japanese player not being that mobile, but as Benayoun headed towards goal, Hooiveld inexplicably failed to curt him off, instead of coming across and keeping the West Ham player out wide, he let him run through only coming across and trying to make a tackle when it was far too late, and even then not even making much attempt to block the ball, the cross across goal was good, it should have been cut out by Fonte however, but he seemed to think he had no one behind him so let it run and was horrified to see Nolan appear for a simple tap in, yes Fonte should have cleared but in these situations he really should have been getting a shout to clear.

Saints then rallied and hit back with a Lallana goal after some good work from Jay Rodriguez, but just as it looked like Saints had some shape and were back in the game, Rodriguez cross was his last touch and he was off for Lambert and Mayuka, neither really showed much, I cant even remember Mayuka touching the ball.

But the two goal cushion was soon restored, another free kick from way out was going nowhere, Carroll had got under it but could have done litte with it till Fonte for no reason whatsoever knocked it off his head with his hand, it was no accident fgod knows why Fonte choce to do that and the resulting penalty killed the game off.

The only question now was would West ham really rout us, the answer was no and a 4th in the final minute was harsh although it still saw a few of our defenders found wanting.

So once again another heavy defeat on the road, worryingly all the goals coming from poor defending again, more worryingly though was the managers selections, I feel that he is bereft of what to do next, afraid to try something different and relying on certain players too much who constantly let him down, as I have said earlier i believe his jon is hard due to the lack of transfer activity in key areas in the summer, areas he wanted to buy in, meaning players like Mayuka who in a side playing only one up front was a signing not needed as shown by his lack of game time, but its more than that, as on Saturday the managers selections have been flawed too many times to just blame it on injuries and a lack of signings.

We are at a point where we have to get on with it and the manager has to make do, as he had to do at Scunthorpe, working with a limited squad this is where Adkins should be excelling but he isnt, on Saturday the players looked punch drunk, lambs to the slaughter, I hate to say this but they looked a side that wasnt motivated or playing for its manager.

I actually hate writing this although Im sure there will be those who claim otherwise, this is why I have waited till Monday to actually do it, I didnt want to write it in anger, but allow emotions to subside and write it constructively, but sadly even with those two days passed, I still cant find much good to say about this game be it about selections, substitutions, tactics, defending and ost worryingly morale.       

Photo: Action Images

saintgus added 09:58 - Oct 22 Probably the worst defensive performance this season, Boruc was certainly not the answer should have kept Cassaniga in, Moshida i know he is playing out of position but even as a centre half he is championship material at best, Fonte and Hoosvold seem a shadow of last season and perhaps its a step to far for them this season, so in a nutshell apart from Nat Clyne we have a defence that is totally out of depth at this level, i truly hope that come January we are not to far adrift form the pack and we can buy players in the positions that should have been brought before the season started. Also Nigel post match looked shell shocked and not the upbeat guy he normally is, one fears a heavy home defeat on Sunday might well be his last game

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St_Guido added 09:59 - Oct 22 Sadly Nick I have to agree with all of this. We are championship-bound unless something miraculous happens!
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sidsaint added 10:16 - Oct 22 Good report Nick. I can't believe NA didn't try to bring in centre backs and other defenders when it was the obvious place to strengthen and he kept hinting at 2 new centre halves he was going to bring in. I wish I knew our Chairman's transfer strategy and negotiating techniques. But we are where we are and I agree that there are full backs in the squad who must be given a chance as Yoshida is an embarrassment at left back. I shudder to think what Bale and Lennon will do to us down the flanks on Sunday and January is a long way off and may be too late to get players in and bed them down. As for a new manager I want to give Nigel a fair crack of the whip which he deserves and a new man would have the same players to organise until January.

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stmichael added 10:31 - Oct 22 Problem is we have to play Fonte Hoovield and Yoshida again on Saturday! They are all out of their depth at this level. I am totally embarrassed by their performances week in week out. Penalties , own goals etc etc How much are we paying the new goalkeeper? Total clown in my opinion. Would bring back KD Saturday. So much wrong I cant be bothered to write about it.
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rjh added 10:34 - Oct 22 What is Lambert doing on the bench?? He must start every game, surely? Like NA, but feel his lack of an actual football background is starting to show now. Yes Jose M was an interpreter, but he learned his stuff with Bobby Robson at a high level. A managerial change is necessary and I feel NC will do it. I remember being shocked at Alan Pardew getting the boot after we beat Bristol Rovers 4-0, but it was justified and NA got us up. It would be a harsh decision now, but one that could be totally justified come May.

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slynch added 10:44 - Oct 22 I don't think the team selection was that bad, considering the level of injury at the back. You might want to try some untested player or other but that would probably have been suicide for him and the team. I would be interested to know what your best back four would have been, cos I might be missing something here. Upfront we have a plethora of forwards and they all played and all had the same affect, so little to say wrong team selection there. Midfield; Spiderman, Davies Lallana, Gully and Puncheon if I recall, there's not much better there?? So what did Adkins do wrong? The combination of Hooi and Fonte kept Caroll at bay for most of the match. The midfield won a lot of possession and I can't remember many crosses getting through, the forwards tried ok, the WH defence was solid and they could argue it wasn't their day and they did score after all. and that should be enough for an away draw or victory. The errors (apart from pen) came from poor communications? Having Lallana as captain is no good, he's hopeless at the back, if I'm being kind. As you say organizing shouts from a strong centre back and the keeper would have stopped all 3 goals. Four defenders were on the guy who set up the 2nd goal and he wandered through the lot of them I think the lack of communication and a dominant rearguard captain is the problem and the goalkeeper continually shouting positional advice to the defence would help to. Well that might get us through to the January Sales!?!

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landsdownsaint added 11:27 - Oct 22 Great summary, I think NA should seek sone defensive advice of Jason Dodd, what he lacked in pace he made up for in reading the game.
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REEDYREEDOREEDZ added 11:46 - Oct 22 After a good first half we were immediately let down by awful defending and goalkeeping. That long straight ball from Noble should’ve been dealt with. It travelled 40 yards and no-one got close to it. You’d be embarrassed conceding like that at any level. Boruc was a good keeper a few years ago, so he’s either lost it or is suffering through a lack of match practice. I hope it’s the latter or otherwise we don’t have a Premiership quality keeper in our squad. We certainly don’t have any Premiership quality defenders. Clyne is the best of a bad bunch but even he would be seen as a weak link in a good defence. He needs a year or two to develop and adapt, then I expect he will be a good Premiership full back. Adkins couldn’t really pick a better team on Saturday because we don’t have the players. J-Rod got the nod over Lambert because we played one up front and J-Rod is a lot more mobile than Lambert. Lambert simply can’t cover the ground. So that selection made sense if NA was intent on playing 4-5-1, and like away to Man City, Lambert could be used as an impact sub. It’s an embarrassment that we need to play Puncheon and Guly in our team. Both are rarely better than useless, and it was Guly’s stray and careless pass that put Yoshida in trouble for their 2nd. We don’t really have anyone else to pick from. Chaplow is continually overlooked and what other wingers do we have? De Ridder?? What a joke. It just shows how weak and poorly planned our squad is. I think it’s all down to a combination of Adkins and Cortese not bringing in the right quality of players in the right areas. If Adkins had identified a couple more defenders to sign, was it Cortese’s stubbornness in negotiating that stopped these deals from happening? Whatever went wrong with signing these players in the summer, it has cost us dear. We now have no choice but to play Championship quality defenders until January, by which time we could be rock bottom. What are the chances that Harry Redknapp gets a second chance with Saints? I know he’s pretty much hated by all Saints fans but he only lives down the road and stranger things have happened. He took us down before but at least he’d get the right quality of players in in January. He’d probably be better equipped to keep us up this time with a larger transfer budget etc.

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brady100 added 11:46 - Oct 22 Whilst we can't hide from the fact that if results don’t improve fast then a change in manager is inevitable, however; The inclusion of Yoshida on paper for a game against a long ball side isn’t what I would call suicide. He’s comfortable on the ball and will defend set plays much better than Fox, Reeves or an inexperienced Luke Shaw. Secondly the selection of Boruc in goal again SHOULD have been a wise one. He put in a strong display for the U21's, is a proven international and a commanding figure. Again on paper it looked like a wise decision to give him a debut against a team who put plenty of balls into the box. Unfortunately for Adkins this was another occasion when a player just didn’t deliver what was expected of him. Can we honestly say confidently beforehand that despite his promise that Gazzaniga would handle West Hams aerial threat and physicality better than Boruc. Quite simply No1 Playing Guly on the left, or at all is perhaps the most bemusing decision. We are playing 4-3-3, a formation that works best with two out and out wingers. Guly did not make it to the by-line once on sat, and Puncheon unfortunately looks hideously out of his depth in terms of both quality & decision making. Again however, what options (if we have to play 4-3-3) do we have in these wide positions? Leaving Lambert out Saturday afternoon was undoubtedly Adkins biggest and most decisive mistake. It could be argued that it is his fault we do not have the players we clearly needed to make 4-3-3 a success e.g. two out and out wingers and defensive reinforcements. But to be frank, I’m not sure the squad has enough quality and cutting edge to turn possession into goals, and no manger can legislate for the sort of mistakes that are giving away goals for fun at this moment in time. The return of Ramirez will be the key to our attacking play and final third quality. If we can somehow cut out our suicidal defending and concentrate for 90 minutes I believe we can gain enough points to keep us alive going into a vital January transfer window. It’s too early to lay all the blame at Adkins door just yet!

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landsdownsaint added 11:51 - Oct 22 I'd rather go down with NA than have Redknapp back!!!
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ExiledSupporter added 12:15 - Oct 22 The fundamental question is why are we playing square pegs in round holes. Certainly part of the answer has to do with having a seriously unbalanced squad (both in terms of quality and experience) made worse by the absence of key players.This weekend Adkins looks to have put out a side that bears the mark of a manager who thinks we can still score more than we concede...seriously wrong on both fronts! But I think the fundamental problem has its roots in the 'trumpeted' strategy in the summer to discard 4-4-2 as the default formation in favour of some version of 4-2-3-1 and then pursuing a transfer policy which addresses neither strategy and neglected to address the glaring weaknesses which were much more a priority. We seem to have uniquely failed to buy players equipped to fulfill the manager's pseudo-sophisticated ambition or to buttress the more familiar style which has served us well in the past. We have totally failed to select a formation which suits the player's profile, yet have failed to acquire the players to make the other formation work successfully. Nick, you refer obliquely to the impression that has been growing that NA did not have full control over the transfer target list (as opposed to the actual negotiations which are best left to a Chairman). From some considerable distance it is difficult to form a very clear view of these 'behind the scenes, power struggles. But certainly Adkins made references to importing a better class of defender and then starting the season with barely any changes in the back five (although Clyne will prove a valuable addition if his confidence isn't shot to **** by the experience). So there appears to be a significant element of dysfunction in the senior management of the club. As circumstantial evidence of this take the case of Ramirez, clearly (by our modest standards) an outstanding player, yet hardly one that we needed or could afford given our other more pressing failings. I cannot belief that he was NA's choice in the circumstances; more than any other signing this seems to be convincing evidence that NA had a very constrained input to the target list. The real problem (aside that the complexion of the season will be set by January) is that there must be a good chance that we will not have sufficient funds left to finance further vital signings and, indeed, that the judgement about what needs to be done will be any better than it was in the summer.

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Zambucco added 12:17 - Oct 22 Lambert should have played, okay he may not have the mobility to be the lone striker. But what he does have is an acknowledged goal threat, and this alone would have changed West Ham's style, the defence would have been deployed more defensively to cover his threat. He's also the master of holding the play up and involving other players. BIG mistake Nigel. What is wrong with Clyne on the left, Richardson on the right? it worked to great effect against Villa. I don't like the Puncheon Clyne link, they play into a corner then come back out, then go back in, with a rare cross. Yoshida could then play alongside Fonte, who seems to play better with him than with Jos. I really like Jos, but I think he's struggling. His over enthusiasm is leading to mistakes and they are BIG mistakes, on the bench for him. Chaplow is the man in midfield, he's tireless and can actually play. He's also very good at changing the play, and he defends well, we need him to start, I rate him higher than Davis, who is a name I would have in my starting 11 every time. From what I've seen of Mayuka, if we're playing one up front, he's got the edge over Rodriguez. His speed and quick mind would be terrifying for defences. Nigel needs to start using his heart, instead of his whims. Play your best players in the best positions, it's points now Nige. It doesn't matter how good a player looks on the training ground, it's in the thick of the fight where it counts. Although I like Nigel and believe he should be given a chance, but our goals shipped say different, it's staring you in the face DO SOMETHING!

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bstokesaint added 13:12 - Oct 22 I can honestly say that is the first time I have really doubted NA's credentials. I know this is a steep learning curve for him, but the team selection for the last game pointed to defeat even before a ball was kicked. At half-time I thought that maybe the decision to use Lambert as an impact sub at around the 60 minute mark with the scores still level might actually pay dividends, but I wasn't allowing for the shocking defending at the start of the second half. The problem is when you leave out your biggest talisman, not only do you weaken yourself, but you give the opposition a huge boost. And that's just what we did. The West Ham back four aren't all that and Lambert would have caused them problems without doubt. One shot on target for the game is woeful. Nick, I'm with you on the playing people in the right positions. Our squad is hopelessly unbalanced at the moment and maybe we should give some of the more junior players a go. We do need to be able to adapt to more formations to because we're way too predictable. Also I want to see Kelvin back. I think he was harshly dropped because of 2-3 errors which are correctable. His handling and commanding of his box is better than what I've seen from the other two. What's more is what some fans fail to realise is we could have the best two goalkeepers in the league, (in goal at the same if you like) and we'd still be losing matches because of the defence in front of them. I hope NA can sort it out soon. I'm loathed to believe that any other managers would get much more out of the current squad. There's no point in talking about last summer either because it's happened and dwelling on it won't take you forward. A good manager adapts and doesn't bemoan the past, but learns from it. On a final note for all the Redknapp lovers. You must have very short memories if you can't remember him saying he never enjoyed his tenure at Saints and was always in love with the neighbours. That's why he's not wanted back.

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SaintNick added 13:14 - Oct 22 With regard to the keeper the choice of Kelvin on the bench on Saturday worried me most, not because it was kelvin but how Gazzaniga is suddenly out of the picture and third choice, it shows that Adkins is indecisive and unsure of whom to pick
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Jesus_02 added 13:50 - Oct 22 "I'd rather go down with NA than have Redknapp back!!!" I concur Saints are 3 years into a 5 year plan to see us get and stay in the premiership within a buget. Liebher stated that it was his intention to see the back to being a self sustaining organisation. Yes Cortese's hard bargening may have meant that we didnt get the quality in that would have liked but, que sera, we have the team we do. Even if the skates do get away without a points deduction, they know as well as anyone that their club, and the way its been run, is a joke. Proud to be a Saint - COYRs - Together we stand

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trotsky added 14:39 - Oct 22 The most positive thing at the moment is that we're not already adrift, so there is still a chance of keeping in touch, but obviously not with performances like this. Gazzaniga in goal; Yoshida/Fonte in the middle seem obvious changes. Then a left back at left back and a right back at right back, and nothing clever in front of them (though Schneiderlin must be close to suspension). If Redknapp were to come back, I wouldn't be able to hand my season ticket back fast enough. Surely integrity isn't an entirely devalued currency, even in football?

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SingaporeSaint added 14:57 - Oct 22 It was fairly obvious that the 'experiment' of an entire squad and mgt team without recent premiership experience was high risk. The thing which is most maddening is the continual poor selections, formation and tactics. We are not making the best of what we have. The positives this season have been that Lambert has shown that he has the ability, strength and awareness to cut it at the top level. In Gazzaniaga we had an athletic keeper who can take crosses, kick well and make great saves. And in Yoshida a proven international Centre back from a top league in Europe. The weaknesses have been long but the most glaring ones; Fonte and Hooiveld as a pair have been proven to be disastrous and Hooiveld as an individual, Do Prado doesnt have the movement at this level, Yoshida (good at CB) should not be playing FB, and J Rod needs some time in the U21's as looks so far out of his depth he needs armbands. We are playing W Ham - a team who are going to exploit weaknesses at C Back and keeper. We pick Fonte and Hooiveld, which everyone knows has been disastrous, we dont pick Lambert who can defend set pieces, and changes the keeper to a new guy who hasnt played with these players.. The writing was on the wall when the team was announced. Most didnt expect Boruc to be as bad as he was though - he flapped more than a decapitated chicken - dreadful. Going forward - Lambert appears the fallguy for Adkins. Lambert deserves a run in the prem more than ANYONE - his goals got us promoted and he has looked our best player.. Since the Villa game where he was great - he's been played out of position twice (and subbed early) and now dropped.. Playing Do Prado for 90 mins away from home in the prem league? Honestly.... Whoever is in charge for the next game needs to pick a team which can compete in the key areas and elimate the key weaknesses we have. I'd go Gazza in goal - he's been good, Yoshida and Fonte at C Back who have been just about OK together, combative athletes at fullback, a tighter 4 in midfield who concentrate on winning their battles not 'being fluid', Lambert as the leading forward and ball winner, and I'd play Mayuka off him to run the channels.. This team may lose some games but will compete most weeks. I think NA is past his expiry date, we need an experienced manager who knows how to organise and defend. I also dont want Redknapp who took us down from this position ignorning the Pompey connection! I would support Hoddle coming back though. Gotta have Faith. : )

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schatfield added 15:19 - Oct 22 Agree with most of you on here - now some folk may not agree with my next comment, but I would like to see Chaplow back in midfield. We seem to really miss someone with the energy to take hold of a game by the scruff of its neck, charge down lost causes and so on. Chaplow is that player. Why not give him a go? Also think Fonte is just as bad as Hooviod now and both seem to lack concentration in nearly every game. I would drop both, maybe bring in Shaw even though he is untried. Gotta be worth a try.

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slynch added 16:01 - Oct 22 you are all suggesting to drop players but few suggest replacements or suggest a replacement without suggesting who'd you drop, from boruc cyne font hooi yosh punch spider davis lallana jrod gully What would you change and you can't add injured players
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BlackRod added 16:07 - Oct 22 Load of drivel. Do you really think you can pick a better team than Nigel when he sees them on the training pitch every day? After we beat Spurs on Sunday you will all change your tunes. Everyone will go on about what a fantastic effort it was. How we have beaten one of the best teams in the country. How we are in a good place in the league. And so on. In Nigel we trust.

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SaintJez added 16:32 - Oct 22 slynch.. even with injuries... Gazza Clyne Fonte Yoshida Reeves Chaplow Spider Davis Puncheon Lallana Lambert is a better team every day of the week! To not play Lambert is ridiculous. At no level of football has it been an acceptable tactic to hope you are still in the game with half an hour to go and then sub on your best player. Punch and Chaplow will give us energy up the wings as well as a stable formation without the ball and a credible threat going outside the full back. Lambert will hold the ball up and be useful in both boxes as normal (he's not expected to run the channels - it's never been his game!) and Lallana will pull the strings from his natural no. 10 role. We may not win every week (or even that often), but at least we'll compete..

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altonsaint added 16:37 - Oct 22 I think many people like me have tried to get behind NA when things haven't gone as they should. For me, it's when the game is perhaps slipping away from us that changes aren't made sooner. If we keep playing a certain system and it's not working, I see a good manager being able to bring on the right player and perhaps change formation a little. As has been said earlier, NA seems reluctant to do that. If it aint bust don't fix it, if it is bust, try and change it!!

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slynch added 17:10 - Oct 22 SaintJez Gazza - tick Reeves - young kid, God knows but probably get ripped Chaplow for Gully Maybe, he does a lot of running around without much happening. Hooi kept Caroll quiet all afternoon, Yosh was responsible for one goal and played a part in another 2 Lambo did play - didn't do much.
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REEDYREEDOREEDZ added 17:20 - Oct 22 'In Nigel we trust'. Not so sure about that one anymore. People say Yoshida is the answer. I'm not convinced he is any better than Hooiveld or Fonte. He might get better with games but I really haven't been impressed with him so far. It seems you don't have to be that good to play centre back for Japan. He definitely shouldn't play full back, he's been awful there. What could Adkins have done differently on Saturday? He could've gone 4-4-2 etc etc and all of the suggestions above but would the result have been any different? He went there with a game plan that worked well for 45 mins. He was let down by god awful defending in the 2nd half. The facts of it is that we don't have any good defenders and we're stuck with what we've got until January. There is no back up or a good youngster we could play. Same goes for the wingers we have, Lallana and Ramirez are the only good ones and even they are both better playing centrally than out wide. We are left with a completely unbalanced squad which has great strength and depth in centre midfield and up front but no quality in defence and a lack of natural wingers. This is something we all as fans identified in the summer. It will probably end up costing Adkins his job. The only way forward for Saints now is to concentrate on defending, get men behind the ball and make ourselves hard to beat. Average defenders can do a better job when they are not exposed. This means two banks of 4 looking to stifle the opposition, close down the space and hit teams on the counter-attack. It is anti-football but it gets results. It needs this sort of drastic action to stop us conceeding goals. The attacking philosophy has to be scrapped until we have the players capable of playing such a system. Failure to change will see us keep shipping goals and it will ultimately take us down. I'm not sure Adkins will make these changes.

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simmo400 added 19:21 - Oct 22 Blacktod you are in cloud cuckoo land you really are.
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