| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? 19:09 - Dec 30 with 3324 views | dmm |
A thought provoking article by the ever excellent Jonathan Wilson https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/dec/30/jonathan-wilson-newsletter-rele
It's pretty depressing stuff. It's simply getting harder every season to stay up. Would we really want another season in the PL? Last decade's forays up there were tough enough. Another one would be worse. |  | | |  |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 19:12 - Dec 30 with 2522 views | Northernr |
The Premier League table I'm looking at here says Nottingham Forest are second, Bournemouth are sixth, Fulham are eighth, Brighton are tenth and Brentford are 12th. |  | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 19:13 - Dec 30 with 2517 views | daveB |
being in the bottom 8 of the Championship isn't much fun either
I'd love another promotion season and clubs like Brentford, Brighton, Fulham and Palace have shown it can be done in the Prem when you go up even if it is unlikely |  | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 19:18 - Dec 30 with 2482 views | dmm |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 19:12 - Dec 30 by Northernr |
The Premier League table I'm looking at here says Nottingham Forest are second, Bournemouth are sixth, Fulham are eighth, Brighton are tenth and Brentford are 12th. |
Yep but, from the article:
"It is true that in 2022-23 none of the promoted sides went down and all three – Fulham, Bournemouth and Nottingham Forest – continue to thrive. But Fulham and Bournemouth both had recent extended experience in the Premier League while Forest went on a spending spree that led ultimately to a four-point deduction for breaches of PSR; it’s not to suggest they acted cynically to point out that from their current position in second, that may look a worthwhile sacrifice. If Leicester, Ipswich and Southampton go down this season, that will be 10 of the last 15 promoted sides who have gone straight back down." | | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 19:48 - Dec 30 with 2412 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
Good article, but, a bit like the discussion about reducing games due to injuries, a well run club can thrive.
With regards to the bottom three today, I would say they were all poor teams. Ipswich though have had back to back promotions so they were always going to find it hard.
If you're well run then there is no reason you can't compete, we did it for 30 odd years. |  | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 20:31 - Dec 30 with 2311 views | CiderwithRsie |
I don't really think that undermines Clive's point.
Some clubs bounce around a bit between the divisions - Fulham, Leicester, Palace all cases in point, probably Leeds too - but they are spending decent numbers of seasons in the top flight, sometimes doing pretty well there, and when they come down they have a good chance of getting back due to parachute payments.
I didn't enjoy either of our last forays there, but that was partly because all season you could see that we were failing do do what those clubs did - we were neither banking the cash to establish ourselves as a regular top-Championship club, nor hanging on by the skin of our teeth to stay in the Premiership (with the sole exception of that extraordinary day at Man City). I don't want that again but it wouldn't be a sacrifice to swap our last decades for Fulham's even though they did get relegated twice.
It's not as though Fulham have got some massive inherent advantage over us, we're very similar clubs in terms of history, size, location. | | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 20:51 - Dec 30 with 2256 views | Northernr |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 20:31 - Dec 30 by CiderwithRsie |
I don't really think that undermines Clive's point.
Some clubs bounce around a bit between the divisions - Fulham, Leicester, Palace all cases in point, probably Leeds too - but they are spending decent numbers of seasons in the top flight, sometimes doing pretty well there, and when they come down they have a good chance of getting back due to parachute payments.
I didn't enjoy either of our last forays there, but that was partly because all season you could see that we were failing do do what those clubs did - we were neither banking the cash to establish ourselves as a regular top-Championship club, nor hanging on by the skin of our teeth to stay in the Premiership (with the sole exception of that extraordinary day at Man City). I don't want that again but it wouldn't be a sacrifice to swap our last decades for Fulham's even though they did get relegated twice.
It's not as though Fulham have got some massive inherent advantage over us, we're very similar clubs in terms of history, size, location. |
I think it's a legitimate tactic, in fact one of the best tactics, to bounce up and down a few times, banking the money, buying good sell on prospects, clearing up your inevitably disastrous Championship bank balance and FFP situation.
It's difficult, no doubt. But the gap is being felt more in our league, where shambolically managed and run clubs are able to do well just because they've got £90m and we haven't. | | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 22:21 - Dec 30 with 2085 views | NewBee |
Interesting article indeed, but two comments.
Re. competitiveness, we forget that back in the day when the (old) First Division was 22 clubs, there were fewer European places and only two teams got relegated, there was a whole raft of mid-table clubs who had little or nothing to play for during the last third of the season. This must have led to a lot of mediocre games.
Second, we could solve a lot of problems by reducing the PL to 18 clubs, as originally envisaged, while distributing the money teams 19 and 20 would normally get (£250m p.a.?) throughout the EFL instead (though excluding those clubs which have parachute money). | | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 22:26 - Dec 30 with 2074 views | ted_hendrix |
I loved the promotion to the Premiership and hated It In equal measures.
I find the wealth attached to the Premiership revolting, but It's what It Is, I cant really put my finger on It, but It's not for me.
I sometimes hear on the radio that promotion to the Prem means a financial gain of over £100 million to the promoted club, really, I mean really?
Many years ago one Saturday afternoon I walked through the lower loft turnstiles and dropped what loose change I had in the begging bowl bucket, that was the week that our training ground was gonna have the electricity cut off as we hadn't paid the goddam electric bill, that's more like It, that's my club right there, none of this sanitized talk sport bull shit football nonsense.
There are players In the Premiership being paid £150, 000 per f ucking week for Christ sake!!!
Yes I want success for club but at what price?
It all seems so wrong to me, I'm perfectly happy in this league, I'd wanna die If we got relegated, I'd be well pleased for us to get promoted too but I remember only to well the last time we were there and the long journey home from WHL and those stupid f ucking Spurs fans on the train and Harry bastard Redcrap waving to the Spurs fans whilst our painfully and obviously under trained players got beat the f uck up for 95 minutes.
Shove that for an expensive lark.
Might have got on the wrong thread but whatever. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 23:03 - Dec 30 with 1980 views | numptydumpty |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 22:26 - Dec 30 by ted_hendrix |
I loved the promotion to the Premiership and hated It In equal measures.
I find the wealth attached to the Premiership revolting, but It's what It Is, I cant really put my finger on It, but It's not for me.
I sometimes hear on the radio that promotion to the Prem means a financial gain of over £100 million to the promoted club, really, I mean really?
Many years ago one Saturday afternoon I walked through the lower loft turnstiles and dropped what loose change I had in the begging bowl bucket, that was the week that our training ground was gonna have the electricity cut off as we hadn't paid the goddam electric bill, that's more like It, that's my club right there, none of this sanitized talk sport bull shit football nonsense.
There are players In the Premiership being paid £150, 000 per f ucking week for Christ sake!!!
Yes I want success for club but at what price?
It all seems so wrong to me, I'm perfectly happy in this league, I'd wanna die If we got relegated, I'd be well pleased for us to get promoted too but I remember only to well the last time we were there and the long journey home from WHL and those stupid f ucking Spurs fans on the train and Harry bastard Redcrap waving to the Spurs fans whilst our painfully and obviously under trained players got beat the f uck up for 95 minutes.
Shove that for an expensive lark.
Might have got on the wrong thread but whatever. |
Man Utd only a couple of wins ahead of the drop zone currently.
Let us pray the mighty Reds fall from their not so lofty perch !! |  |
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| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 07:47 - Dec 31 with 1726 views | derbyhoop |
AFAIK
2023/24 - the 3 promoted clubs came straight down
2 of the relegated clubs went back up.
2024/25
The 3 promoted clubs are, currently, 18th, 19th and 20th
2 of the relegated clubs are top 3 and 4 points clear of 4th place.
For most Championship clubs, including us, it's like bringing a knife (plastic) to a gunfight.
That's not to say promotion is unattainable, but it does require clubs to be well run, and lucky(?), for several years. [Post edited 31 Dec 2024 7:59]
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| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 08:05 - Dec 31 with 1680 views | stevec |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 19:12 - Dec 30 by Northernr |
The Premier League table I'm looking at here says Nottingham Forest are second, Bournemouth are sixth, Fulham are eighth, Brighton are tenth and Brentford are 12th. |
Fair point, 5 teams that 10-15 years ago no one would have predicted, so it can be done.
Of those five, think three of them having benefited by yo-yoing, Brighton and Brentford seem to have utilised data driven systems to hold their own, which gives some hope.
One worrying aspect, I’m struggling to see how any of those sides benefited via players coming through their youth system. Maybe there’s been the odd one here and there but not in any significant quantity.
No one expects a Francis, Clement, Gillard, Busby style renaissance these days but the hoovering up of youth talent by the big clubs suggests we may be barking up the wrong tree with our belief over too many years that this is the way forward. |  | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 08:25 - Dec 31 with 1641 views | The_Beast1976 |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 22:26 - Dec 30 by ted_hendrix |
I loved the promotion to the Premiership and hated It In equal measures.
I find the wealth attached to the Premiership revolting, but It's what It Is, I cant really put my finger on It, but It's not for me.
I sometimes hear on the radio that promotion to the Prem means a financial gain of over £100 million to the promoted club, really, I mean really?
Many years ago one Saturday afternoon I walked through the lower loft turnstiles and dropped what loose change I had in the begging bowl bucket, that was the week that our training ground was gonna have the electricity cut off as we hadn't paid the goddam electric bill, that's more like It, that's my club right there, none of this sanitized talk sport bull shit football nonsense.
There are players In the Premiership being paid £150, 000 per f ucking week for Christ sake!!!
Yes I want success for club but at what price?
It all seems so wrong to me, I'm perfectly happy in this league, I'd wanna die If we got relegated, I'd be well pleased for us to get promoted too but I remember only to well the last time we were there and the long journey home from WHL and those stupid f ucking Spurs fans on the train and Harry bastard Redcrap waving to the Spurs fans whilst our painfully and obviously under trained players got beat the f uck up for 95 minutes.
Shove that for an expensive lark.
Might have got on the wrong thread but whatever. |
Absolutely agree 100% with this. I wish the EFL would breakaway from the EPL, and if you win the Championship then you are EFL Champions and you stay and defend your title the following season. Fcuk the EPL. I would love that. | | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 08:37 - Dec 31 with 1616 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
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| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 09:10 - Dec 31 with 1555 views | stowmarketrange |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 08:25 - Dec 31 by The_Beast1976 |
Absolutely agree 100% with this. I wish the EFL would breakaway from the EPL, and if you win the Championship then you are EFL Champions and you stay and defend your title the following season. Fcuk the EPL. I would love that. |
Me too,but I couldn’t stand it if Brentford were stuck in the premier league forever. |  | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 09:34 - Dec 31 with 1517 views | TheChef |
I'd be curious to see stats for teams promoted from the Championship and their amount of spend on players before/during their first season in the Prem.
Obviously we got it totally wrong spending far too much on by and large a bunch of wrong uns; but then you have the likes of Burnley who managed to stay up by not really spending. Even Luton nearly managed it last season by keeping faith with the same players who got them promoted (but then you look at them now - bit of an odd one).
So my feeling is you don't need to spend a lot to survive, but of course any new players you do sign need to be absolutely right. |  |
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| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 11:45 - Dec 31 with 1398 views | hantssi |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 08:05 - Dec 31 by stevec |
Fair point, 5 teams that 10-15 years ago no one would have predicted, so it can be done.
Of those five, think three of them having benefited by yo-yoing, Brighton and Brentford seem to have utilised data driven systems to hold their own, which gives some hope.
One worrying aspect, I’m struggling to see how any of those sides benefited via players coming through their youth system. Maybe there’s been the odd one here and there but not in any significant quantity.
No one expects a Francis, Clement, Gillard, Busby style renaissance these days but the hoovering up of youth talent by the big clubs suggests we may be barking up the wrong tree with our belief over too many years that this is the way forward. |
Do Brentford even have an Academy?
I thought I read somewhere it wasn’t worth the money so they now hoover up all the released talent and pick up “cheap” young talent using data?
I hated our last 2 visits there but look who we had in charge and what we did, I’d suffer it again if we in the main stuck with what got us up and just brought in some young potential and 1 or 2 old heads like a Richard Dunne.
Apart from that I agree with Ted, the Super League (probably Saudi sponsored!) can’t come soon enough! | | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 12:18 - Dec 31 with 1354 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 08:05 - Dec 31 by stevec |
Fair point, 5 teams that 10-15 years ago no one would have predicted, so it can be done.
Of those five, think three of them having benefited by yo-yoing, Brighton and Brentford seem to have utilised data driven systems to hold their own, which gives some hope.
One worrying aspect, I’m struggling to see how any of those sides benefited via players coming through their youth system. Maybe there’s been the odd one here and there but not in any significant quantity.
No one expects a Francis, Clement, Gillard, Busby style renaissance these days but the hoovering up of youth talent by the big clubs suggests we may be barking up the wrong tree with our belief over too many years that this is the way forward. |
It was always naive to think that we could simply have a ready-made conveyor belt of young talent to power us up the leagues. Let's face it, this was Les and Fernandes, so hardly the brains trust. Much better to have a balance - the odd youth product (Kolli), cast-offs from Premier League academies (Morgan), bargains from Europe (Nardi) and Championship experience (Cook). Les's approach was always unrealistic and Fernandes bought into it after all the Premier League expenditure. We've clearly gone too far on the European market recently, so hopefully lessons are learned and we can get the balance right in the future. I'd also like us to sign more players from Leagues 1 and 2 - there must be bargains there!
Not saying it's easy, and Brentford and Brighton are the outliers in finding the formula, but I do feel the club is starting to see that it's unrealistic to expect a goldmine of youth talent for a club of our size these days. Look at City, who have a goldmine yet inexplicably sold the biggest nugget to one of their rivals. [Post edited 31 Dec 2024 12:22]
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| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 12:38 - Dec 31 with 1309 views | switchingcode |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 11:45 - Dec 31 by hantssi |
Do Brentford even have an Academy?
I thought I read somewhere it wasn’t worth the money so they now hoover up all the released talent and pick up “cheap” young talent using data?
I hated our last 2 visits there but look who we had in charge and what we did, I’d suffer it again if we in the main stuck with what got us up and just brought in some young potential and 1 or 2 old heads like a Richard Dunne.
Apart from that I agree with Ted, the Super League (probably Saudi sponsored!) can’t come soon enough! |
Yes Brentford have an academy as it’s a requirement for being in the premier league. | | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 12:40 - Dec 31 with 1299 views | switchingcode |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 09:10 - Dec 31 by stowmarketrange |
Me too,but I couldn’t stand it if Brentford were stuck in the premier league forever. |
Me too | | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 12:43 - Dec 31 with 1281 views | hantssi |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 12:38 - Dec 31 by switchingcode |
Yes Brentford have an academy as it’s a requirement for being in the premier league. |
Ah right, did not know that.
I stand corrected.
As a matter of interest, how many players in your first team squad have come through that route? | | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 13:15 - Dec 31 with 1233 views | TheChef |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 12:38 - Dec 31 by switchingcode |
Yes Brentford have an academy as it’s a requirement for being in the premier league. |
Haha it's like someone rings the Brentford bell on here, and there you are!  | |
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| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 13:21 - Dec 31 with 1214 views | DavieQPR |
The only thing about promotion is it gives a well run club financial stability for years regardless of what happens afterward. |  | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 14:23 - Dec 31 with 1152 views | switchingcode |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 12:43 - Dec 31 by hantssi |
Ah right, did not know that.
I stand corrected.
As a matter of interest, how many players in your first team squad have come through that route? |
None although we have plenty out on loan who may make it.We have tended to sign players around 17/18 years of age from other clubs and progresss through our B team.Only got an academy as we have to when we go back to the championship I’m sure we will scrap it. | | | |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 14:56 - Dec 31 with 1102 views | davman |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 19:12 - Dec 30 by Northernr |
The Premier League table I'm looking at here says Nottingham Forest are second, Bournemouth are sixth, Fulham are eighth, Brighton are tenth and Brentford are 12th. |
...but (predictably) Ipswich are 18th, Leicester are 19th and Soton are 20th.
Survive the first season you have half a chance especially as the three coming up are likely to be cannon fodder for the cash rich existing members of the cash league.
But we're rapidly approaching the closed shop. Luton didn't spend the cash on their squad, but I am shocked how badly they are doing this season though. Generally, it'll now be the same old faces bouncing up and down... |  |
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| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 15:36 - Dec 31 with 1031 views | switchingcode |
| Promotion to the Premier League is tough.But is survival effectively impossible? on 14:56 - Dec 31 by davman |
...but (predictably) Ipswich are 18th, Leicester are 19th and Soton are 20th.
Survive the first season you have half a chance especially as the three coming up are likely to be cannon fodder for the cash rich existing members of the cash league.
But we're rapidly approaching the closed shop. Luton didn't spend the cash on their squad, but I am shocked how badly they are doing this season though. Generally, it'll now be the same old faces bouncing up and down... |
Agree with you but you say cash rich they all lose money and are trying to be allowed to lose more. | | | |
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