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On this Championship experience point I would just add a couple of things...
1 - It wasn't altogether unreasonable for them to think that with Cook, Dunne, Clarke-Salter, Fox, Colback, Field and Chair there was already a good amount of that bedrock in the building to build on. Not up front of course, and a couple of those have very questionable attendance records, but still I think they've been unlucky to lose three of those right down the spine of the team while they're trying to bed these inexperienced players in.
2 - We are a bit of a Goldilocks as a support base. We sign a load of trendy analytics boys from Europe (Hasselbaink, Cifuentes) and we all have a bitch and moan about Championship experience. We sign a load of older heads (McClaren, Ainsworth) and we talk about needing more youth and pace. We shop in the lower leagues (Holloway) and say we need Premier League quality and when we do that (McClaren) we ask why we're not scouting the lower leagues. I guess the two things you could maybe take from it are our balance is never right, we go all in on an idea for a short period of time. Or wherever we shop we buy crap players, in which case who's identifying these players and why?
True and I’ve witnessed plenty of failures at my own club regarding foreign players and that was before Brexit rules were changed to suppress the market for non PL clubs.Maupay Mbeumo and Vitaly all came from 2nd Div European clubs along with others that have proved successful but took time to settle in and received mixed views from our fans (one commented Maupay was the worst striker he had ever seen in a Bees shirt) I agree a settled team is the ideal situation for players to ease into but it’s not unusual for clubs to start a new season with the majority of starting line ups.being new signings you just have to trust the manager and give it time.
On this Championship experience point I would just add a couple of things...
1 - It wasn't altogether unreasonable for them to think that with Cook, Dunne, Clarke-Salter, Fox, Colback, Field and Chair there was already a good amount of that bedrock in the building to build on. Not up front of course, and a couple of those have very questionable attendance records, but still I think they've been unlucky to lose three of those right down the spine of the team while they're trying to bed these inexperienced players in.
2 - We are a bit of a Goldilocks as a support base. We sign a load of trendy analytics boys from Europe (Hasselbaink, Cifuentes) and we all have a bitch and moan about Championship experience. We sign a load of older heads (McClaren, Ainsworth) and we talk about needing more youth and pace. We shop in the lower leagues (Holloway) and say we need Premier League quality and when we do that (McClaren) we ask why we're not scouting the lower leagues. I guess the two things you could maybe take from it are our balance is never right, we go all in on an idea for a short period of time. Or wherever we shop we buy crap players, in which case who's identifying these players and why?
On this Championship experience point I would just add a couple of things...
1 - It wasn't altogether unreasonable for them to think that with Cook, Dunne, Clarke-Salter, Fox, Colback, Field and Chair there was already a good amount of that bedrock in the building to build on. Not up front of course, and a couple of those have very questionable attendance records, but still I think they've been unlucky to lose three of those right down the spine of the team while they're trying to bed these inexperienced players in.
2 - We are a bit of a Goldilocks as a support base. We sign a load of trendy analytics boys from Europe (Hasselbaink, Cifuentes) and we all have a bitch and moan about Championship experience. We sign a load of older heads (McClaren, Ainsworth) and we talk about needing more youth and pace. We shop in the lower leagues (Holloway) and say we need Premier League quality and when we do that (McClaren) we ask why we're not scouting the lower leagues. I guess the two things you could maybe take from it are our balance is never right, we go all in on an idea for a short period of time. Or wherever we shop we buy crap players, in which case who's identifying these players and why?
I think that last question warrants more attention if we’re going to be wedded to the data driven signings approach.
When was the last time we paid money for a player and then sold that player for more money?
Off the top of my head we have paid good money for the following under Belk:
Washington Ngbakoto Dykes Bonne Luongo Gladwin Dickie
I believe all were whole or part led signings by his team.
I’ve not included the vast amount of free signings of which some have been good and some bad. I just want to be focused on how successful we have been with buying players.
Not one was sold for more than we bought them for, I believe.
We now have: Celar Madsen Dembele Varane to add to that list.
Sooner or later we need a big hit. The main sales we have had over the years have come from picking up young talent at 16-18:
Eze Armstrong Dieng (Dickie and Dykes were sold for less than we bought him for so not classifying them as a successful sale.)
The one I can’t remember whether we bought or signed as a free was Smithies, and when that was. He went for £4m so that was a good pick up.
Nevertheless, if this data model is to actually work, the squad get stronger, and he club significantly improve it’s league position, we must buy players who we sell for money. If, at the end of this season, it appears to be unlikely with these latest 4 signings, I think the question you ask at the end, must be asked once again…
I think that last question warrants more attention if we’re going to be wedded to the data driven signings approach.
When was the last time we paid money for a player and then sold that player for more money?
Off the top of my head we have paid good money for the following under Belk:
Washington Ngbakoto Dykes Bonne Luongo Gladwin Dickie
I believe all were whole or part led signings by his team.
I’ve not included the vast amount of free signings of which some have been good and some bad. I just want to be focused on how successful we have been with buying players.
Not one was sold for more than we bought them for, I believe.
We now have: Celar Madsen Dembele Varane to add to that list.
Sooner or later we need a big hit. The main sales we have had over the years have come from picking up young talent at 16-18:
Eze Armstrong Dieng (Dickie and Dykes were sold for less than we bought him for so not classifying them as a successful sale.)
The one I can’t remember whether we bought or signed as a free was Smithies, and when that was. He went for £4m so that was a good pick up.
Nevertheless, if this data model is to actually work, the squad get stronger, and he club significantly improve it’s league position, we must buy players who we sell for money. If, at the end of this season, it appears to be unlikely with these latest 4 signings, I think the question you ask at the end, must be asked once again…
We signed Smithies for just over a million I think
You can go back further, not many that we signed for good money were sold for a profit. Austin, Smithies, Freeman the only ones that spring to mind in last 20 years
On this Championship experience point I would just add a couple of things...
1 - It wasn't altogether unreasonable for them to think that with Cook, Dunne, Clarke-Salter, Fox, Colback, Field and Chair there was already a good amount of that bedrock in the building to build on. Not up front of course, and a couple of those have very questionable attendance records, but still I think they've been unlucky to lose three of those right down the spine of the team while they're trying to bed these inexperienced players in.
2 - We are a bit of a Goldilocks as a support base. We sign a load of trendy analytics boys from Europe (Hasselbaink, Cifuentes) and we all have a bitch and moan about Championship experience. We sign a load of older heads (McClaren, Ainsworth) and we talk about needing more youth and pace. We shop in the lower leagues (Holloway) and say we need Premier League quality and when we do that (McClaren) we ask why we're not scouting the lower leagues. I guess the two things you could maybe take from it are our balance is never right, we go all in on an idea for a short period of time. Or wherever we shop we buy crap players, in which case who's identifying these players and why?
Regarding your second point. If you could consider our final league positions since relegation from the PL:
Bottom half: 20, 19, 18, 18
Mid-table: 16, 13
Top-half: 12, 11, 9
Firstly, this dispels the '16th place' myth (one for the LFW glossary) and IMO reflects very well on Holloway's tenure - avoided relegation in 2016/17 and finished a respectable 16th the following season AND lets not forget our last home game of the season which I think was a peak performance for us in terms of the direction of the club - just look at the players on the video still - Kakay, Furlong, Bright, Eze, Chair, two of those goal scorers on the day. exciting times!
On the other managers:
Warburtons gambles on big signings are somewhat justified. Hasselbaink/McClaren/Beale/Ainsworth complete failure. Critchley was just a stop gap. Cifuentes TBC.
The league positions show how chaotic or football strategy has been and I think generally the frustration has been justified even if some of the individual grievances have been OTT. We've gambled before and we're rolling the dice...again.
On this Championship experience point I would just add a couple of things...
1 - It wasn't altogether unreasonable for them to think that with Cook, Dunne, Clarke-Salter, Fox, Colback, Field and Chair there was already a good amount of that bedrock in the building to build on. Not up front of course, and a couple of those have very questionable attendance records, but still I think they've been unlucky to lose three of those right down the spine of the team while they're trying to bed these inexperienced players in.
2 - We are a bit of a Goldilocks as a support base. We sign a load of trendy analytics boys from Europe (Hasselbaink, Cifuentes) and we all have a bitch and moan about Championship experience. We sign a load of older heads (McClaren, Ainsworth) and we talk about needing more youth and pace. We shop in the lower leagues (Holloway) and say we need Premier League quality and when we do that (McClaren) we ask why we're not scouting the lower leagues. I guess the two things you could maybe take from it are our balance is never right, we go all in on an idea for a short period of time. Or wherever we shop we buy crap players, in which case who's identifying these players and why?
regarding point 2.... a pessimist is never disappointed, and the world is full of them.
Interesting conversation between Dave McIntyre and Kevin Gallen on the WLS podcast today. Personally find it very hard to disagree with anything they say here, though am sure some will (especially on X).
Surprised Dave Mc doesn't make more of the interview he has with Marti at just under thirteen minutes, though. Finally, some questions asked of MC which aren't spoon-fed club soft-balls. And really good answers. He's great at talking about the specific, challenging football stuff: it's mad the club don't serve him up for more. (A conspiracist might wonder why they don't want this charming, eloquent, thoughtful coach out front more regularly...)
Personally, I think MC's interview with DMc was evasive, chippy/defensive, and topped off with a scary sprinkling of bullshit.
First, he tells us that the manager doesn't have that much influence, and 'the players are running the show'. Wow! So exactly what responsibility do you take for the tripe we've seen most of the time this season, Sr C?
Next, 'fans' logic' (whatever that means) is apparently totally dictated by results, when the (carefully honed) questions were all about the style/performance and whether the players are up to executing the coaching plan. Apparently, for our edification, most of our failings are down to our making too many 'mistakes'. Nothing to do with fielding a Field-centric midfield you could drive a coach and horses through, or playing a non-scoring 'strikeforce', or having a 'marking' system that means we concede from crosses and corners again and again, then? Silly me! Must be more of my 'fan logic', I guess.
Finally, no one wants to win more than he does. Great! How much are we paying you again? If that's a criterion for the role worth mentioning, we might as well bring back Gareth!
He really needs to get his, and his team's, act together. If people think that is good enough, they need to see a neurologist! It's flim-flam!
Personally, I think MC's interview with DMc was evasive, chippy/defensive, and topped off with a scary sprinkling of bullshit.
First, he tells us that the manager doesn't have that much influence, and 'the players are running the show'. Wow! So exactly what responsibility do you take for the tripe we've seen most of the time this season, Sr C?
Next, 'fans' logic' (whatever that means) is apparently totally dictated by results, when the (carefully honed) questions were all about the style/performance and whether the players are up to executing the coaching plan. Apparently, for our edification, most of our failings are down to our making too many 'mistakes'. Nothing to do with fielding a Field-centric midfield you could drive a coach and horses through, or playing a non-scoring 'strikeforce', or having a 'marking' system that means we concede from crosses and corners again and again, then? Silly me! Must be more of my 'fan logic', I guess.
Finally, no one wants to win more than he does. Great! How much are we paying you again? If that's a criterion for the role worth mentioning, we might as well bring back Gareth!
He really needs to get his, and his team's, act together. If people think that is good enough, they need to see a neurologist! It's flim-flam!
[Post edited 17 Oct 19:28]
I'm praying we get a win Saturday just to shut up whinging , armchair fans like you up for a day or two
It's tiresome . It's like you get a kick out of us being shit
Regarding your second point. If you could consider our final league positions since relegation from the PL:
Bottom half: 20, 19, 18, 18
Mid-table: 16, 13
Top-half: 12, 11, 9
Firstly, this dispels the '16th place' myth (one for the LFW glossary) and IMO reflects very well on Holloway's tenure - avoided relegation in 2016/17 and finished a respectable 16th the following season AND lets not forget our last home game of the season which I think was a peak performance for us in terms of the direction of the club - just look at the players on the video still - Kakay, Furlong, Bright, Eze, Chair, two of those goal scorers on the day. exciting times!
On the other managers:
Warburtons gambles on big signings are somewhat justified. Hasselbaink/McClaren/Beale/Ainsworth complete failure. Critchley was just a stop gap. Cifuentes TBC.
The league positions show how chaotic or football strategy has been and I think generally the frustration has been justified even if some of the individual grievances have been OTT. We've gambled before and we're rolling the dice...again.
The average of all those finishing positions is just over 15, so it's pretty close and indicates the 16th meme has emerged for a good reason.
I'm praying we get a win Saturday just to shut up whinging , armchair fans like you up for a day or two
It's tiresome . It's like you get a kick out of us being shit
[Post edited 17 Oct 19:34]
Here's an idea: Try to think about how to distinguish 'whingeing' from evidence-supported opinion, and/or consider taking a course in how not to be a scapegoating, resentful bore who's threatened by people who are different from you!
As a last resort, if you can't like evidence-based opinion, go and join a happy clappy cult with QPR sympathies rather than pointlessly clogging up a football messageboard.
I'm going to die on this hill genuinely. Varane and Madsen have not been starting together much at the base of midfield, they've been starting with Sam Field and his 200-ish appearances or Jack Colback and his many many more. Sunderland signed Alan Browne and have used him sparingly because the young players are playing well in a system that suits them but crucially the senior pros (mostly O'Nien) are setting the standards. A bit of Shaun Derry in the squad is surely what Colback is for? Plus for that we have Steve Cook, Jimmy Dunne, even Lucas Andersen - Cook, Dunne and Colback have all been every bit as poor as the new signings in this sense. Maybe a little harsh on Colback, but Dunne as a centre back is just not right and Cook has been a shadow of the player he is. Field also just doesn't look comfortable at all, none of this is due to the new signings but if they did happen to step up and set the example, maybe the new signings would have more of a chance to follow. So really, I don't think the issue has to be the new signings.
Poor Jimmy - wrong as a centre back, wrong as a right back. Where do you suggest he plays, out of interest, or would you like to see him dropped entirely?
On this Championship experience point I would just add a couple of things...
1 - It wasn't altogether unreasonable for them to think that with Cook, Dunne, Clarke-Salter, Fox, Colback, Field and Chair there was already a good amount of that bedrock in the building to build on. Not up front of course, and a couple of those have very questionable attendance records, but still I think they've been unlucky to lose three of those right down the spine of the team while they're trying to bed these inexperienced players in.
2 - We are a bit of a Goldilocks as a support base. We sign a load of trendy analytics boys from Europe (Hasselbaink, Cifuentes) and we all have a bitch and moan about Championship experience. We sign a load of older heads (McClaren, Ainsworth) and we talk about needing more youth and pace. We shop in the lower leagues (Holloway) and say we need Premier League quality and when we do that (McClaren) we ask why we're not scouting the lower leagues. I guess the two things you could maybe take from it are our balance is never right, we go all in on an idea for a short period of time. Or wherever we shop we buy crap players, in which case who's identifying these players and why?
Poor Jimmy - wrong as a centre back, wrong as a right back. Where do you suggest he plays, out of interest, or would you like to see him dropped entirely?
[Post edited 17 Oct 19:55]
I'd love it if we could drop Dunne, it means we're going in the right direction. Great attitude, but a L1 defender at best.
Here's an idea: Try to think about how to distinguish 'whingeing' from evidence-supported opinion, and/or consider taking a course in how not to be a scapegoating, resentful bore who's threatened by people who are different from you!
As a last resort, if you can't like evidence-based opinion, go and join a happy clappy cult with QPR sympathies rather than pointlessly clogging up a football messageboard.
[Post edited 17 Oct 19:52]
You remind me of Grandpa Simpson when he shouts at the cloud.
Personally, I think MC's interview with DMc was evasive, chippy/defensive, and topped off with a scary sprinkling of bullshit.
First, he tells us that the manager doesn't have that much influence, and 'the players are running the show'. Wow! So exactly what responsibility do you take for the tripe we've seen most of the time this season, Sr C?
Next, 'fans' logic' (whatever that means) is apparently totally dictated by results, when the (carefully honed) questions were all about the style/performance and whether the players are up to executing the coaching plan. Apparently, for our edification, most of our failings are down to our making too many 'mistakes'. Nothing to do with fielding a Field-centric midfield you could drive a coach and horses through, or playing a non-scoring 'strikeforce', or having a 'marking' system that means we concede from crosses and corners again and again, then? Silly me! Must be more of my 'fan logic', I guess.
Finally, no one wants to win more than he does. Great! How much are we paying you again? If that's a criterion for the role worth mentioning, we might as well bring back Gareth!
He really needs to get his, and his team's, act together. If people think that is good enough, they need to see a neurologist! It's flim-flam!
[Post edited 17 Oct 19:28]
I found his interview a bit worrying as well, questions about what our style of play is are fair at the moment as we've been rubbish all season, i thought his answer to that was a bit patronising
1. There is a core and unlucky that injuries etc have upset efforts to glue the bits together. 2. The recruiters have failed to address the striker position...period. But I do think CW was effectively replaced by KD. 3. Its hard to compare recruited players past to this new lot (yet), but all told we have NOT done well. we still wait and hope that sell on clauses for Eze and BOS materialize....soon. 4. Like many, I persist in thinking Andersen is taking away more from the game day effort than he is contributing by far.
1. There is a core and unlucky that injuries etc have upset efforts to glue the bits together. 2. The recruiters have failed to address the striker position...period. But I do think CW was effectively replaced by KD. 3. Its hard to compare recruited players past to this new lot (yet), but all told we have NOT done well. we still wait and hope that sell on clauses for Eze and BOS materialize....soon. 4. Like many, I persist in thinking Andersen is taking away more from the game day effort than he is contributing by far.
You're wrong imo. A major factor in keeping us up last season. Plus, we've no one better.
Clearly can't play central defence, that has been pretty obvious last month. Is targeted as a right back due to his lack of pace and turning circle of an oil tanker. Offers no attacking threat or support down the right (bar the Birmingham goal!).
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