| Good Luck UK 12:13 - Dec 12 with 67093 views | PlanetHonneywood |
For the Eze, not the Pugh!
#votewarburton
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| Good Luck UK on 00:32 - Dec 15 with 1889 views | LythamR |
| Good Luck UK on 21:06 - Dec 14 by BrianMcCarthy |
What are your views on how this affects Ireland, border(s) and violence?
Would really like to know what the feeling is now. |
This election result is a watershed moment, North Belfast result changing the balance of power away from the unionists probably forever. The Tory majority means no need for the government to be held to ransom by the DUP or the ultra unionists in the Tory ranks
I think Johnson and co will sell the unionists further down the river during the trade negotiations without any qualms and wil give Northern Ireland a referendum within the 5 year term secretly hoping that it votes for a United Ireland.
Its almost inevitable that a united ireland will come to pass eventually so this seems as good a time as any, hopefully it can be done quickly with as little violence as possible.
Some solution has to be offered to Unionists that might want to relocate to England, that will be tricky to sort out but not impossible and I would like to think the vast majority would want to stay. |  | | |
| Good Luck UK on 00:34 - Dec 15 with 1894 views | karl |
| Good Luck UK on 23:06 - Dec 14 by stevec |
That’s probably true.
If Nicola Sturgeon wants Independence for Scotland she’d more likely get it if she asked England to vote on it rather than the people of Scotland.
Likewise Northern Ireland, a United Ireland makes sense for everyone concerned now the troubles are largely in the past. Both Scotland and Ireland are proud nations and its ludicrous in this time we should preside over either.
A self governing England equally makes sense, financing of the NHS and education would become more sustainable as a single nation. Would also enable Scotland to rejoin the EU and Northern Ireland once absorbed back into a United Ireland. |
Who do you preside over?
Thats the attitude from MSM that has created SNP support.
As things have progressed I was 75% for staying in UK (don't believe there's many in Scotland that don't have some notion of independence) when we had the vote but tbh if there was one tomorrow I'm pretty sure I'd be voting for going it alone, albeit needing some concrete evidence of currency and EU membership.
The whole campaign last time was about guaranteeing our EU membership and ridiculing the SNP for the folly in risking this. Fishing (my industry) can whistle in the wind as we'll be sold down the river at the first negotiations.
The Irish situation is an area I can't comment on through lack of knowledge other than I already know companies that move goods across the border under false pretences and have caused (non EU) markets to be closed to ROI businesses. Is anyone honestly expecting that to be self governed, absolutely no chance.
I would like to say that I count Bazza as a good friend although we don't share political ground for the most part, I'm a lifelong Lib Dem supporter and if I vote independence I won't be voting for the SNP in an independent Scotland.
That said, he's the most agreeable person you could meet and will do anything for you, I don't agree with some of what he says but I hope for the next little while he becomes Bazzaintheloft again and we can all concentrate on his love of the Rs and stick the politics to one side when we speak about each other.
My one big gripe in life is the demise of Charles Kennedy, he was always right imo and if the LDs had stuck by him in his time of need with his illness instead of going with that chancer Clegg then the SNP wouldn't gave secured so heavily the centre left in Scotland and the Tories wouldn't have had their lapdogs to start this whole s**tstorm.
Our MP Carmichael was complicit in this and always troubles me when I vote.
Good luck in whatever you do next Baz! |  | | |
| Good Luck UK on 00:36 - Dec 15 with 1884 views | DannytheR |
| Good Luck UK on 22:52 - Dec 14 by Northernr |
This idea that people have "fallen for it", don't know what they've voted for, have made big mistake, will come to realise and come round to this way of thinking in the end has to stop. It has to stop.
"The manifesto was good, the manifesto was popular, we're proud of the manifesto". Nooooooooooooo, please stop. Please. Listen to what people have said, learn from it, adapt.
"The MSM are against us, he's been savaged, he hasn't been given a fair hearing." The Conservatives have just won their biggest majority since 1935? They've done that with a leader who has ducked interviews, hidden in fridges, funnelled public money to somebody he was having an affair with, refused to admit how many kids he's got. They've run a campaign that has been shown, very publicly, to be lying to people repeatedly. You had Jacob Rees Mogg saying people had burned to death in homes the Tories had clad with solidified lighter fuel because they were too dim to get out. You had Priti Patel's "it's not the government is it" moment over the food banks. You had a four year old on a pile of coats in a hospital waiting room. All of this got massive coverage, and people still voted for it. Corbyn hasn't lost because Laura Kuennesberg has been a bit mean to him and The Guardian hasn't all been as fawning as Owen Jones.
People in Bolsover, Scunthorpe, Grimsby are voting Tory. This is fcking remarkable. Take it from somebody who lived in these shtholes. This idea that these people are wrong, or stupid, or will come to their senses, is insulting, and patronising, and completely out of touch. They're willingly voting for a party that decimated their communities in the 1980s, and they're doing it because they fcking hate this left wing Labour movement and its leadership so much.
We've had this experiment now, it's been put to the public twice, the public have now very soundly given their verdict. This Momentum, Corbyn, anti-Semitic, stuff is over now. Over.
Please God can we start again with some proper opposition that people feel they can get behind.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Corbyn was a shockingly bad leader, and his refusal/inability to play the smart game with the media (or anyone else) has been ruinous.
But the idea Jess Phillips or David Miliband or any of the rest of the centrist mob is going to change anything for Labour is no more connected to reality than the dreams of Corbyn. It's not 1997 anymore. Even with Murdoch still on side, Blair's last result was 3 per cent higher than Labour got this time - both Brown and Miliband got less.
I've been out on the doorsteps for the last five weeks, and hated as Corbyn was, people outside London and the major cities didn't only vote Tory because of that —Â they like what Johnson and the Tories represent now, which is English nationalism. Look at posters on this thread talking about how Labour should represent "the white working class." That's the game now. The right have united brilliantly, with everyone from Matt Hancock to Tommy Robinson on the same song sheet of national "unity" behind Johnson and Brexit. Factor in the coming boundary changes, ID at polling stations, page 48 of the Tory manifesto, the inevitable clampdown once the economy goes sideways, all the rest of it, and we're done.
Yeah, Labour could "adapt" by trying to keep pace on immigration etc, and God knows they couldn't find a worse media performer than Corbyn to do it, but you need your own story and a big idea to win elections - Thatcher had one, Blair had one and now Johnson has one. What's going to be the big Labour idea? Being a bit less cruel to the disabled than the Tories with Dan Jarvis standing up extra straight at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday? Might pick a dozen seats back up in five years time, that's about it.
The right have won. It's game over. |  | | |
| Good Luck UK on 00:42 - Dec 15 with 1861 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Good Luck UK on 00:11 - Dec 15 by nix |
But would appeal much more broadly to the electorate, which is where the problem is in the LP currently. |
I would agree with part of that, which is the LP membership and the electorate are at odds. However I think a Party should convince the electorate, not the other way round.
However this is where we disagree: the one thing this election has proven is that there is no 'broad electorate'. While I don't think Labour are anything other than a mild Social Democrat party they are percieved as 'Hard Left'. The Tories are perceived, probably rightly, as a English Nationalist party which they had to become to swallow the dangerous UKIP / BP vote.
Between them, the 'Hard Left' and 'Hard Right' parties took 77% of the overall vote, and the middle ground Lib Dems took 11%.
If Centrism (and Remainism) was so popular, the LDs would have been a major player in this election. But they barely put 4% on.
Something to note though, if we had a PR parliament like most European countries. Jeremy would be the prime minister in charge of a coalition that had 60% of the seats.
[Post edited 15 Dec 2019 0:56]
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| Good Luck UK on 00:53 - Dec 15 with 1836 views | loftboy |
| Good Luck UK on 00:42 - Dec 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I would agree with part of that, which is the LP membership and the electorate are at odds. However I think a Party should convince the electorate, not the other way round.
However this is where we disagree: the one thing this election has proven is that there is no 'broad electorate'. While I don't think Labour are anything other than a mild Social Democrat party they are percieved as 'Hard Left'. The Tories are perceived, probably rightly, as a English Nationalist party which they had to become to swallow the dangerous UKIP / BP vote.
Between them, the 'Hard Left' and 'Hard Right' parties took 77% of the overall vote, and the middle ground Lib Dems took 11%.
If Centrism (and Remainism) was so popular, the LDs would have been a major player in this election. But they barely put 4% on.
Something to note though, if we had a PR parliament like most European countries. Jeremy would be the prime minister in charge of a coalition that had 60% of the seats.
[Post edited 15 Dec 2019 0:56]
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The electorate rejected PR in a referendum in 2011, doubt there will be another one any time soon. |  |
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| Good Luck UK on 00:58 - Dec 15 with 1832 views | WEAREAWFUL |
It would always be a coalition under that system of voting ,not that its such a bad thing but look what happened to clegg and the libdems after the last one?6 |  | | |
| Good Luck UK on 00:59 - Dec 15 with 1834 views | karl |
| Good Luck UK on 00:53 - Dec 15 by loftboy |
The electorate rejected PR in a referendum in 2011, doubt there will be another one any time soon. |
PR works well in the Scottish Parliament, Orkney has always been a Lib Dem stronghold but, rightly, the Tories and SNP have representation at the Parliament through what are called 'List' MSPs who cover greater areas. In our case the whole of the Highlands and Islands.
I would definitely recommend as a fairer way of representing the electorate.
Edit
Before SNP got their majority we always had a hung parliament and getting the budget passed always took a while but otherwise it didn't seem to create major issues.
I do appreciate the devolved budget is less onerous than the current UK one but politicians are politicians wherever and always grandstand whether its local council or High office and compromise is probably best outcome anyway. [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 1:03]
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| Good Luck UK on 01:04 - Dec 15 with 1824 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Good Luck UK on 00:34 - Dec 15 by karl |
Who do you preside over?
Thats the attitude from MSM that has created SNP support.
As things have progressed I was 75% for staying in UK (don't believe there's many in Scotland that don't have some notion of independence) when we had the vote but tbh if there was one tomorrow I'm pretty sure I'd be voting for going it alone, albeit needing some concrete evidence of currency and EU membership.
The whole campaign last time was about guaranteeing our EU membership and ridiculing the SNP for the folly in risking this. Fishing (my industry) can whistle in the wind as we'll be sold down the river at the first negotiations.
The Irish situation is an area I can't comment on through lack of knowledge other than I already know companies that move goods across the border under false pretences and have caused (non EU) markets to be closed to ROI businesses. Is anyone honestly expecting that to be self governed, absolutely no chance.
I would like to say that I count Bazza as a good friend although we don't share political ground for the most part, I'm a lifelong Lib Dem supporter and if I vote independence I won't be voting for the SNP in an independent Scotland.
That said, he's the most agreeable person you could meet and will do anything for you, I don't agree with some of what he says but I hope for the next little while he becomes Bazzaintheloft again and we can all concentrate on his love of the Rs and stick the politics to one side when we speak about each other.
My one big gripe in life is the demise of Charles Kennedy, he was always right imo and if the LDs had stuck by him in his time of need with his illness instead of going with that chancer Clegg then the SNP wouldn't gave secured so heavily the centre left in Scotland and the Tories wouldn't have had their lapdogs to start this whole s**tstorm.
Our MP Carmichael was complicit in this and always troubles me when I vote.
Good luck in whatever you do next Baz! |
Thanks mate. And good advice.
Heading up the M1 as we speak with a fishing rod and a pile of CVs! [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 1:07]
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| Good Luck UK on 01:09 - Dec 15 with 1812 views | AnonymousR |
| Good Luck UK on 21:45 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36 |
I believe that the border issue is a complete red herring and therefore will not affect those counties that run along the border. In saying that there will have to be some form of customs check, which imo will involve a trusted trader and electronic tracking system. Systems are already in place. |
How will the trusted trader scheme work?
Who will pay for the implementation and maintenance?
How long will a trader be registered for?
How will the traders be allocated licence?
What priority order will it take?
Which industries will be affected?
How will new organisations be added?
What help will mainland organisations get?
How will electronic tracking work?
How will component elements be tracked?
When an item is manufactured in several countries, who is responsible for the completion of the system?
Which technology standard will be used?
Who will govern the system and maintain it?
Who will fund the electronic system? |  | | |
| Good Luck UK on 01:09 - Dec 15 with 1812 views | karl |
| Good Luck UK on 01:04 - Dec 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Thanks mate. And good advice.
Heading up the M1 as we speak with a fishing rod and a pile of CVs! [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 1:07]
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Good man, if it extends to the A9 I'll buy your catch and give you a bed for the nightðŸ˜
All the best, speak soon👠| | | |
| Good Luck UK on 01:19 - Dec 15 with 1792 views | Boston |
| Good Luck UK on 00:42 - Dec 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I would agree with part of that, which is the LP membership and the electorate are at odds. However I think a Party should convince the electorate, not the other way round.
However this is where we disagree: the one thing this election has proven is that there is no 'broad electorate'. While I don't think Labour are anything other than a mild Social Democrat party they are percieved as 'Hard Left'. The Tories are perceived, probably rightly, as a English Nationalist party which they had to become to swallow the dangerous UKIP / BP vote.
Between them, the 'Hard Left' and 'Hard Right' parties took 77% of the overall vote, and the middle ground Lib Dems took 11%.
If Centrism (and Remainism) was so popular, the LDs would have been a major player in this election. But they barely put 4% on.
Something to note though, if we had a PR parliament like most European countries. Jeremy would be the prime minister in charge of a coalition that had 60% of the seats.
[Post edited 15 Dec 2019 0:56]
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Based on existing political entities. But, if you had PR, a myriad of small parties would appear, many of which would be considered extreme. | |
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| Good Luck UK on 01:40 - Dec 15 with 1771 views | nix |
| Good Luck UK on 00:42 - Dec 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I would agree with part of that, which is the LP membership and the electorate are at odds. However I think a Party should convince the electorate, not the other way round.
However this is where we disagree: the one thing this election has proven is that there is no 'broad electorate'. While I don't think Labour are anything other than a mild Social Democrat party they are percieved as 'Hard Left'. The Tories are perceived, probably rightly, as a English Nationalist party which they had to become to swallow the dangerous UKIP / BP vote.
Between them, the 'Hard Left' and 'Hard Right' parties took 77% of the overall vote, and the middle ground Lib Dems took 11%.
If Centrism (and Remainism) was so popular, the LDs would have been a major player in this election. But they barely put 4% on.
Something to note though, if we had a PR parliament like most European countries. Jeremy would be the prime minister in charge of a coalition that had 60% of the seats.
[Post edited 15 Dec 2019 0:56]
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Unfortunately Bazz your view that the party should change the electorate's perspective is the one shared by Corbyn and McDonnell and previously by Michael Foot. But that is a much more risky strategy than that employed by the Tory party, who shamelessly appealed to a large swathe of the electorate's fears and desires: tighter immigration controls, a booming economy, Brexit and spending on health and the police. All of that will work on their target market, the over 50s.
I disagree that among the wider public's view, Corbyn had a centrist manifesto. Maybe if it's viewed by socialist activists he might be considered moderate, but not in mainstream politics. The Liberal Democrats are not viewed as a party who will ever be in government in their own right, so I don't think their being centrist but not popular is relevant. I truly believe that a more moderate LP would have done much better in the polls. Many people believe in social justice, can't stand Boris Johnson, or JRM but still would never have voted for Corbyn because they don't want everything re-nationalised, they don't want to be taxed to oblivion and they don't believe he could run the economy. There's a reason why Clinton's unofficial campaign slogan was, 'it's the economy, stupid' and guess what, he won. |  | | |
| Good Luck UK on 01:50 - Dec 15 with 1766 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Good Luck UK on 01:40 - Dec 15 by nix |
Unfortunately Bazz your view that the party should change the electorate's perspective is the one shared by Corbyn and McDonnell and previously by Michael Foot. But that is a much more risky strategy than that employed by the Tory party, who shamelessly appealed to a large swathe of the electorate's fears and desires: tighter immigration controls, a booming economy, Brexit and spending on health and the police. All of that will work on their target market, the over 50s.
I disagree that among the wider public's view, Corbyn had a centrist manifesto. Maybe if it's viewed by socialist activists he might be considered moderate, but not in mainstream politics. The Liberal Democrats are not viewed as a party who will ever be in government in their own right, so I don't think their being centrist but not popular is relevant. I truly believe that a more moderate LP would have done much better in the polls. Many people believe in social justice, can't stand Boris Johnson, or JRM but still would never have voted for Corbyn because they don't want everything re-nationalised, they don't want to be taxed to oblivion and they don't believe he could run the economy. There's a reason why Clinton's unofficial campaign slogan was, 'it's the economy, stupid' and guess what, he won. |
Well, the majority of the country would probably vote to bring back capital punishment. An extreme example I know, but I hope you wouldn't expect the Party to take that on as a vote winner.
As mentioned before, Germany under a Merkel conservative government has a vastly nationalised state. It's really not controversial. Here is a YouGov poll of popularity for Labour Policies including nationalisation.
YouGov is founded and owned by Stephen Shakespeare (alongside Nadhim Zahari), a former Tory candidate by the way so far from pro Labour:
Milliband was a moderate, and received less votes than Corbyn did. He was only the leader 5 years ago. That was the last mandate a 'moderate' LP leader received.
I'm guilty of living in a Corbyn bubble thats for sure, but I don't think Centrism is either the right answer, or an answer the country wants.
All those Northern / Midland / Welsh seats gave their Labour votes to the Brexit Party. I think the Labour loss is as simple as them going back on their promise to leave in 2017 as well as the unpopularity of Corbyn which I think was based on a falsehood of him being a terrorist sympathiser etc. [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 1:56]
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| Good Luck UK on 01:55 - Dec 15 with 1762 views | Jigsore |
| Good Luck UK on 22:52 - Dec 14 by Northernr |
This idea that people have "fallen for it", don't know what they've voted for, have made big mistake, will come to realise and come round to this way of thinking in the end has to stop. It has to stop.
"The manifesto was good, the manifesto was popular, we're proud of the manifesto". Nooooooooooooo, please stop. Please. Listen to what people have said, learn from it, adapt.
"The MSM are against us, he's been savaged, he hasn't been given a fair hearing." The Conservatives have just won their biggest majority since 1935? They've done that with a leader who has ducked interviews, hidden in fridges, funnelled public money to somebody he was having an affair with, refused to admit how many kids he's got. They've run a campaign that has been shown, very publicly, to be lying to people repeatedly. You had Jacob Rees Mogg saying people had burned to death in homes the Tories had clad with solidified lighter fuel because they were too dim to get out. You had Priti Patel's "it's not the government is it" moment over the food banks. You had a four year old on a pile of coats in a hospital waiting room. All of this got massive coverage, and people still voted for it. Corbyn hasn't lost because Laura Kuennesberg has been a bit mean to him and The Guardian hasn't all been as fawning as Owen Jones.
People in Bolsover, Scunthorpe, Grimsby are voting Tory. This is fcking remarkable. Take it from somebody who lived in these shtholes. This idea that these people are wrong, or stupid, or will come to their senses, is insulting, and patronising, and completely out of touch. They're willingly voting for a party that decimated their communities in the 1980s, and they're doing it because they fcking hate this left wing Labour movement and its leadership so much.
We've had this experiment now, it's been put to the public twice, the public have now very soundly given their verdict. This Momentum, Corbyn, anti-Semitic, stuff is over now. Over.
Please God can we start again with some proper opposition that people feel they can get behind.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
it's not an excuse to say general media has been a disgrace this election. I don't even think it's the main factor. you've also managed not to mention Brexit at all which I find astounding.
The only Governments we have had for a long time now are ones given the blessing of Rupert Murdoch. You cannot ignore that. There is no f*cking point in a 'proper opposition' if it's just changing the colour of the walls after whoever the previous incumbent is burns out. an Opposition who just accept everything the Conservatives and aren't willing to reform aren't a proper opposition. And you can dance to Murdoch's tune if you want but as long as the Conservatives aren't too badly damaged goods they will find a way to monster you. JFK would be as unpopular as Jimmy Saville in 4 years too.
Labour do need to find someone more appealing to the electorate in general that much is obvious. If it wasn't so important i'd actually enjoy a Jess Phillips leadership just to see genuine shock on her daft mug when she realises The Times only like her because they can rely on her to publicly take a crap on the Corbyn cabinet. It needs be someone with broad appeal... maybe Angela Raynor. The moderates can cry all they like about Corbyn but frankly they challenged him in 2016 and the best they could come up with was Owen Smith, a nobody that will not even be a footnote in british history.
the positive I would take from this election if I was Labour is a) when presented in a vacuum to people a lot of their policies like higher rate of tax for the super rich and some degree of nationalisation were actually reasonably popular (yougov) and b) for the first time in many years they actually have a large amount of mostly younger activists who are willing to volunteer time and give money to the party, a part of politics Blair strangled the life out of. They need to use that to their advantage. [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 1:58]
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| “The thing about football - the important thing about football - is that it is not just about football.†|
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| Good Luck UK on 01:59 - Dec 15 with 1756 views | Jigsore |
| Good Luck UK on 00:00 - Dec 15 by WEAREAWFUL |
Yes but he stabbed his brother in the back |
the backstabbing Jew stereotype is it | |
| “The thing about football - the important thing about football - is that it is not just about football.†|
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| Good Luck UK on 02:22 - Dec 15 with 1735 views | plasmahoop |
| Good Luck UK on 00:36 - Dec 15 by DannytheR |
Corbyn was a shockingly bad leader, and his refusal/inability to play the smart game with the media (or anyone else) has been ruinous.
But the idea Jess Phillips or David Miliband or any of the rest of the centrist mob is going to change anything for Labour is no more connected to reality than the dreams of Corbyn. It's not 1997 anymore. Even with Murdoch still on side, Blair's last result was 3 per cent higher than Labour got this time - both Brown and Miliband got less.
I've been out on the doorsteps for the last five weeks, and hated as Corbyn was, people outside London and the major cities didn't only vote Tory because of that —Â they like what Johnson and the Tories represent now, which is English nationalism. Look at posters on this thread talking about how Labour should represent "the white working class." That's the game now. The right have united brilliantly, with everyone from Matt Hancock to Tommy Robinson on the same song sheet of national "unity" behind Johnson and Brexit. Factor in the coming boundary changes, ID at polling stations, page 48 of the Tory manifesto, the inevitable clampdown once the economy goes sideways, all the rest of it, and we're done.
Yeah, Labour could "adapt" by trying to keep pace on immigration etc, and God knows they couldn't find a worse media performer than Corbyn to do it, but you need your own story and a big idea to win elections - Thatcher had one, Blair had one and now Johnson has one. What's going to be the big Labour idea? Being a bit less cruel to the disabled than the Tories with Dan Jarvis standing up extra straight at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday? Might pick a dozen seats back up in five years time, that's about it.
The right have won. It's game over. |
Although I've traditionally voted tory, it was a reluctant vote this time. Although it's along way back for Labour, it's certainly not game over if they can get their act together. Personally I'm chuffed at how the election has gone, but there is so much that can go wrong for them, brexit wise, economy wise, and if they can't deal with homelessness, social care etc it can easily fall apart.
I hope they can do well, and the Labour Party consigned to the wilderness for a while. But probably there are going to be many problems ahead for the tories. If Labour can move a bit to the centre with a relatively charismatic leader they could gain power again. But they've surely got to sack off momentum as a starting point | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 02:23 - Dec 15 with 1731 views | nix |
| Good Luck UK on 01:50 - Dec 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Well, the majority of the country would probably vote to bring back capital punishment. An extreme example I know, but I hope you wouldn't expect the Party to take that on as a vote winner.
As mentioned before, Germany under a Merkel conservative government has a vastly nationalised state. It's really not controversial. Here is a YouGov poll of popularity for Labour Policies including nationalisation.
YouGov is founded and owned by Stephen Shakespeare (alongside Nadhim Zahari), a former Tory candidate by the way so far from pro Labour:
Milliband was a moderate, and received less votes than Corbyn did. He was only the leader 5 years ago. That was the last mandate a 'moderate' LP leader received.
I'm guilty of living in a Corbyn bubble thats for sure, but I don't think Centrism is either the right answer, or an answer the country wants.
All those Northern / Midland / Welsh seats gave their Labour votes to the Brexit Party. I think the Labour loss is as simple as them going back on their promise to leave in 2017 as well as the unpopularity of Corbyn which I think was based on a falsehood of him being a terrorist sympathiser etc. [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 1:56]
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Bit of a straw man there Bazz about capital punishment.
It wouldn't be controversial to continue with nationalised industries if we had them, it's slightly different to renationalise them. These aren't my views I'm telling you what people tell me and they're saying that they don't want to go back to the powerful unions, three day week, strikes etc. I'm not sure how efficient the nationalised industries are in Germany either. There was certainly an issue of inefficiencies in the old nationalised industries. My mum used to work for the water board and people used to steal all the pipes and use them to their private plumbing jobs that they did in work time. And I once did a summer job in someone's place and it took me a day to do what he took a week to do. I'm not sure if there's that culture of taking the piss in Germany.
Calling something as popular in theory doesn't mean you'll actually vote for the party that has that as a policy.
Miliband should never have been the leader either. I wouldn't have voted for him as leader of the school tuck shop, so that was always an own-goal by the LP. David Milliband would have much more credible.
Corbyn may have lost votes in the north over Brexit but he didn't lose Kensington as a result of Brexit, for instance, which was 69% Remain. I know that's what he likes to think is the reason he lost, plus the anti-semitism thing, but that's not what I've been hearing or reading from people. If they continue to believe that and vote Corbyn Mark 2 in, I think they'll continue to lose. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 02:42 - Dec 15 with 1722 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Good Luck UK on 02:23 - Dec 15 by nix |
Bit of a straw man there Bazz about capital punishment.
It wouldn't be controversial to continue with nationalised industries if we had them, it's slightly different to renationalise them. These aren't my views I'm telling you what people tell me and they're saying that they don't want to go back to the powerful unions, three day week, strikes etc. I'm not sure how efficient the nationalised industries are in Germany either. There was certainly an issue of inefficiencies in the old nationalised industries. My mum used to work for the water board and people used to steal all the pipes and use them to their private plumbing jobs that they did in work time. And I once did a summer job in someone's place and it took me a day to do what he took a week to do. I'm not sure if there's that culture of taking the piss in Germany.
Calling something as popular in theory doesn't mean you'll actually vote for the party that has that as a policy.
Miliband should never have been the leader either. I wouldn't have voted for him as leader of the school tuck shop, so that was always an own-goal by the LP. David Milliband would have much more credible.
Corbyn may have lost votes in the north over Brexit but he didn't lose Kensington as a result of Brexit, for instance, which was 69% Remain. I know that's what he likes to think is the reason he lost, plus the anti-semitism thing, but that's not what I've been hearing or reading from people. If they continue to believe that and vote Corbyn Mark 2 in, I think they'll continue to lose. |
It wasn’t meant as a straw man, it was a demonstration that the electorate tail shouldn’t wag the party dog because that’s how we end up with Trump and Johnson. A party puts an idea forward and then tries its’s best to convince the electorate.
Germany is the largest economy in Europe and has things like Rent controls. It’s almost a perfect demonstration of the 2019 Labour manifesto. By the way, the Financial Times backed Labour’s economic plans over the Tory one. The Three Day week saga is nearly 50 years old by the way. We may as well talk about the Suez Crisis or the Profumo affair and the effect they had on the 2019 election.
David Miliband left the Labour Party almost as soon as he lost the leadership vote. Do you think he’d be a good person to have in a crisis? He is also inextricably linked with Hilary Clinton and her politics. Look how that went!
Maybe me and you should form a insomniacs party. [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 2:48]
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| Good Luck UK on 08:13 - Dec 15 with 1650 views | traininvain |
| Good Luck UK on 22:52 - Dec 14 by Northernr |
This idea that people have "fallen for it", don't know what they've voted for, have made big mistake, will come to realise and come round to this way of thinking in the end has to stop. It has to stop.
"The manifesto was good, the manifesto was popular, we're proud of the manifesto". Nooooooooooooo, please stop. Please. Listen to what people have said, learn from it, adapt.
"The MSM are against us, he's been savaged, he hasn't been given a fair hearing." The Conservatives have just won their biggest majority since 1935? They've done that with a leader who has ducked interviews, hidden in fridges, funnelled public money to somebody he was having an affair with, refused to admit how many kids he's got. They've run a campaign that has been shown, very publicly, to be lying to people repeatedly. You had Jacob Rees Mogg saying people had burned to death in homes the Tories had clad with solidified lighter fuel because they were too dim to get out. You had Priti Patel's "it's not the government is it" moment over the food banks. You had a four year old on a pile of coats in a hospital waiting room. All of this got massive coverage, and people still voted for it. Corbyn hasn't lost because Laura Kuennesberg has been a bit mean to him and The Guardian hasn't all been as fawning as Owen Jones.
People in Bolsover, Scunthorpe, Grimsby are voting Tory. This is fcking remarkable. Take it from somebody who lived in these shtholes. This idea that these people are wrong, or stupid, or will come to their senses, is insulting, and patronising, and completely out of touch. They're willingly voting for a party that decimated their communities in the 1980s, and they're doing it because they fcking hate this left wing Labour movement and its leadership so much.
We've had this experiment now, it's been put to the public twice, the public have now very soundly given their verdict. This Momentum, Corbyn, anti-Semitic, stuff is over now. Over.
Please God can we start again with some proper opposition that people feel they can get behind.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
You’ve got my vote! This lack of self awareness is dangerous https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/14/we-won-the-argument-but-i-regre |  | | |
| Good Luck UK (n/t) on 09:19 - Dec 15 with 2179 views | distortR |
| Good Luck UK on 22:09 - Dec 14 by kensalriser |
Jello would be so disappointed. |
[Post edited 15 Dec 2019 9:37]
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| Good Luck UK on 09:24 - Dec 15 with 2164 views | distortR |
| Good Luck UK on 23:19 - Dec 14 by essextaxiboy |
Thats made me rethink the Union problem , Just because its old and we have close ties doesnt mean that it has to go on for ever.
Would it really be so bad if we went our own ways ?
We could still be allies and close friends. |
in my experience, she only says that cos she's going to jump STRAIGHT into bed with someone else.
Our national anthem could be that jilted john song. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 09:34 - Dec 15 with 2145 views | distortR |
| Good Luck UK on 01:04 - Dec 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Thanks mate. And good advice.
Heading up the M1 as we speak with a fishing rod and a pile of CVs! [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 1:07]
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(See if you can find out which 25% of Karl is non-compliant, we'll take it from there) | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 09:39 - Dec 15 with 2131 views | nix |
| Good Luck UK on 02:42 - Dec 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
It wasn’t meant as a straw man, it was a demonstration that the electorate tail shouldn’t wag the party dog because that’s how we end up with Trump and Johnson. A party puts an idea forward and then tries its’s best to convince the electorate.
Germany is the largest economy in Europe and has things like Rent controls. It’s almost a perfect demonstration of the 2019 Labour manifesto. By the way, the Financial Times backed Labour’s economic plans over the Tory one. The Three Day week saga is nearly 50 years old by the way. We may as well talk about the Suez Crisis or the Profumo affair and the effect they had on the 2019 election.
David Miliband left the Labour Party almost as soon as he lost the leadership vote. Do you think he’d be a good person to have in a crisis? He is also inextricably linked with Hilary Clinton and her politics. Look how that went!
Maybe me and you should form a insomniacs party. [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 2:48]
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It's a straw man because even the Tories wouldn't bring back capital punishment to win a few votes. It's not a runner. It's this all or nothing thinking thats got Labour down the current rabbit hole. Appealing a bit more to the electorate and having a modicum of power is better than having no power at all and ranting from the sidelines. No one's saying abandon all your principles but start slowly. We won't change so they have to isn't really working for you, is it?
This Tory party didn't start with such a right wing agenda, they've been in power for nine years and have been steadily lurching rightwards. The LP would need to do the same.
You cannot compare Germany to Britain. It's a different electorate and you're talking about maintaining the status quo not massive change. You'd have to be in power for a while and gradually convince people that it would be good for the economy and themselves long term Also, we have a much more individualistic culture I think. Since the Thatcher years, I think we've become more selfish. You just have to read some fora where people shamelessly say they don't give a shiny shit about others as long as they're all right. I think my kids' generation are different but it will take a long time for Thatchers' children to die off and the younger generation to take up the reins.
Look, Bazz, this is not an academic exercise, I have no proof of what I'm saying, it's just my sense, so I can't back it up, but it's also based on what people have said to me (and yes the three day week is relevant because it maybe history to you, but it's a memory to many Tory voters, who tend to be 50 plus).
I believe strongly in a decent opposition. Weak oppositions also lead to Trump and Johnson. I didn't want a Johnson government. But even I can see that completely ignoring the electorate will not take the LP where they want to be right now and it's going to be an awful long time before the electorate catches up.
I don't know whether David Milliband would have been a good leader. Maybe he did give up too soon. Or maybe he saw the writing on the wall and who was taking over the party, who can say? But I genuinely do think that he would have been a much more credible leader. And incidentally, it's not always a strength to hang on when all the evidence has been against you, Jezza are you listening?
I can see I'm not going to convince you and wouldn't really expect to. And that's fine. But it worries me that the LP isn't changing and we're going to continue to have a Tory party in government that will shape this country for generations.
And yes, I'm a terrible insomniac! | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 10:58 - Dec 15 with 2062 views | QPR_John |
| Good Luck UK on 22:02 - Dec 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Left and Right is subjective. Everything he advocated is already happening and is a mainstream view in countries from Norway to Korea. If you showed our manifesto to people in Norway that would ask you which centrist wrote it.
Maybe it was too much too soon. Asking people to consciously separate from 40 years of Neo Liberal policies was a big ask. |
Sorry have not read to the end of this post so may have been answered. Is it not the case in those countries everybody pays more tax than here. Corbyn tried to tell us all his policies could be financed by only taxing the few people did not believe it. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 11:06 - Dec 15 with 2050 views | QPR_John |
| Good Luck UK on 23:42 - Dec 14 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
It's a shame the BBC got rid of This Week.
Andrew Neil, Michael Portillo Alan Johnson talked a lot of sense. |
"Andrew Neil, Michael Portillo Alan Johnson talked a lot of sense. "
Maybe the reason the BBC dropped it | | | |
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