| No subject 18:10 - Sep 16 with 24173 views | nice_to_michu |
[Post edited 15 Nov 2017 12:05]
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 21:46 - Sep 16 with 1881 views | jack247 |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 21:26 - Sep 16 by E20Jack |
I said agree to disagree, not sure why you are responding?
As others in this thread have pointed out - how are you displaying anything different to me? You disagree with me so are saying your piece, I am disagreeing with you so saying mine - yet you only believe one has an issue with disagreement - the one that openly says he doesn't and you may disagree all you like. Surely you see the error there?
Appleby will be remembered as a skilful player (Although from that era I will give you Jason Price, constantly berated for his skin colour and lack of tracking back EVERY game even when he was busting a gut), Van der Gunn will be remembered as a rubbish one, Orlandi will be remembered as an injured one. They may have been called lazy for the odd game but it most certainly did not make up their description.
Yet the likes of Bony, Scotland and now seemingly Sanches seem to be developing/developed a very clear stereotype of lazy or non committed.
I am merely noticing a correlation and not coming to a conclusion. The ratio is overwhelmingly in the favour (if you would like to call it that) of ethnic minorities, you can add Ki to that list.
Going back 20 years to find a player or noting overweight unfit Caucasian ones isn't really balancing that out. [Post edited 16 Sep 2017 21:31]
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Fair enough, I won't respond after this one. It's not like I have form for 20 page disagreements anyway.
Sanches has developed a very clear stereotype of non commital? You made that up. He has only played twice and the majority of comments about him have been positive.
Van der Gunn, Hernandez and Orlandi were all frequently labelled as lazy, certainly more so than Barrow or Emnes. You may choose not to remember that, you won't alter my opinion.
We have had plenty of black players that to my knowledge have never been accused of laziness. Dyer, Knight, Pratley (ok mixed race, but so was Jason Price). Funnily enough, they were the type of players that relied on pace and/or mobility. Unlike Bony and Scotland who relied on strength and technique. It's not because they are black, it's because some fans expect players to sprint around the pitch for 90 minutes. |  | | |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 21:57 - Sep 16 with 1863 views | E20Jack |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 21:46 - Sep 16 by jack247 |
Fair enough, I won't respond after this one. It's not like I have form for 20 page disagreements anyway.
Sanches has developed a very clear stereotype of non commital? You made that up. He has only played twice and the majority of comments about him have been positive.
Van der Gunn, Hernandez and Orlandi were all frequently labelled as lazy, certainly more so than Barrow or Emnes. You may choose not to remember that, you won't alter my opinion.
We have had plenty of black players that to my knowledge have never been accused of laziness. Dyer, Knight, Pratley (ok mixed race, but so was Jason Price). Funnily enough, they were the type of players that relied on pace and/or mobility. Unlike Bony and Scotland who relied on strength and technique. It's not because they are black, it's because some fans expect players to sprint around the pitch for 90 minutes. |
The length of thread makes no difference. Parliamentary debates have gone on for days, it doesn't mean one has a problem with disagreement. Stop taking debate as a negative.
Nope did not make it up at all. There were comments even before he came regarding not wanting a lazy player, there is now a thread after game 2 highlighting it and there were comments after game 1. If that is not developing a stereotype then I don't know what is, what do you want? printed Tshirts? banners?
Van der Gunn was not labelled a lazy player no matter what you think you remember. Again, the odd comment maybe. Comparing that to what the likes of Bony, Scotland and now Sanches are being accused of is non comparable. Not to mention historic cases like Jason Price who was openly abused for being lazy and his skin colour.
You are going to the extreme there and you know it. If you think I believe every black player has been labelled lazy then you are either trolling or have an issue understanding. At this point im not entirely sure which one. Leon Knight, Nathan Dyer and Pratley were quick dynamic workhorses, you couldn't possibly label them lazy no dynamic, quick, workhorse white players have ever been called lazy either - so the point is moot.
The point being of course, that many similar players to Bony, Sanches, Price, Ki, Fer etc etc have not been called lazy, not even close... yet they all happen to be white.
You are deciding to ignore what is a pretty clear issue. Only you can answer what the reason for that is. [Post edited 16 Sep 2017 22:02]
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 21:58 - Sep 16 with 1859 views | jasfan |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 18:27 - Sep 16 by E20Jack |
If Pirlo was black and signed for us, he would also be labelled lazy.
Bony, Emnes, Scotland, Lawrence, Barrow, Sanches all got this tag. Can't remember many white players being slated for their laziness.
Just an observation. |
"If Pirlo was black and signed for us, he would also be labelled lazy. "
Are you making this statement based on the correlation you later referred to? | | | |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 21:59 - Sep 16 with 1853 views | E20Jack |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 21:58 - Sep 16 by jasfan |
"If Pirlo was black and signed for us, he would also be labelled lazy. "
Are you making this statement based on the correlation you later referred to? |
Clearly. | |
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 22:08 - Sep 16 with 1828 views | jack247 |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 21:57 - Sep 16 by E20Jack |
The length of thread makes no difference. Parliamentary debates have gone on for days, it doesn't mean one has a problem with disagreement. Stop taking debate as a negative.
Nope did not make it up at all. There were comments even before he came regarding not wanting a lazy player, there is now a thread after game 2 highlighting it and there were comments after game 1. If that is not developing a stereotype then I don't know what is, what do you want? printed Tshirts? banners?
Van der Gunn was not labelled a lazy player no matter what you think you remember. Again, the odd comment maybe. Comparing that to what the likes of Bony, Scotland and now Sanches are being accused of is non comparable. Not to mention historic cases like Jason Price who was openly abused for being lazy and his skin colour.
You are going to the extreme there and you know it. If you think I believe every black player has been labelled lazy then you are either trolling or have an issue understanding. At this point im not entirely sure which one. Leon Knight, Nathan Dyer and Pratley were quick dynamic workhorses, you couldn't possibly label them lazy no dynamic, quick, workhorse white players have ever been called lazy either - so the point is moot.
The point being of course, that many similar players to Bony, Sanches, Price, Ki, Fer etc etc have not been called lazy, not even close... yet they all happen to be white.
You are deciding to ignore what is a pretty clear issue. Only you can answer what the reason for that is. [Post edited 16 Sep 2017 22:02]
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Fair enough, you got me there, I had no intention of replying.
Which white players are you referring to that played like Bony or Scotland? | | | |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 22:08 - Sep 16 with 1828 views | jackrabbit |
Sanches is a very talented, highly skilful footballer who will become a very important player for us in time. His quick feet, instantaneous change of direction, and acceleration away from trouble, are the hallmarks of a top performer. Once he has settled in and become more confident, I expect his game to reflect his talent - better ball retention and more accurate passing. For the time being let's enjoy having him in the team. He improves the average skillset in the team by 100%. |  | | |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 22:19 - Sep 16 with 1800 views | dickythorpe |
Julian Alsop had black bananas they weren't lazy. |  | | |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 22:19 - Sep 16 with 1799 views | jasfan |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 21:59 - Sep 16 by E20Jack |
Clearly. |
Whether there is an issue of stereotyping or not, you have undermined the certainty of your statement by choosing to be the arbiter of what is included in the data set. [Post edited 16 Sep 2017 22:21]
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 22:40 - Sep 16 with 1760 views | E20Jack |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 22:19 - Sep 16 by jasfan |
Whether there is an issue of stereotyping or not, you have undermined the certainty of your statement by choosing to be the arbiter of what is included in the data set. [Post edited 16 Sep 2017 22:21]
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Common sense has decided that overweight unfit Caucasian players really should not be used to balance out the castigating of fit and mobile black players. I am just obviously reiterating the most obvious of ground rules for comparison. Surely you aren't devoid of sense enough to understand that? | |
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 22:47 - Sep 16 with 1748 views | E20Jack |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 22:08 - Sep 16 by jack247 |
Fair enough, you got me there, I had no intention of replying.
Which white players are you referring to that played like Bony or Scotland? |
They are different players so you wont get exact like for like players.
But Bony can be compared to Llorente in so much as they were pivot targetmen. When signing Bony back there were loads of comments question his application and laziness. If we were to sign Llorente back in Jan I doubt you would get the same.
Scotland I suppose due to being a lone striker that lacked an element of pace can be put in the same breath as Trundle. Trundle was allowed to not chase defenders and lost causes - Scotland wasn't.
As for Sanches, the other player in our side that could be direct competition for the deep lying wide midfielder could be Clucas. I don't think anyone will ever label Clucas lazy. | |
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:01 - Sep 16 with 1717 views | jack247 |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 22:47 - Sep 16 by E20Jack |
They are different players so you wont get exact like for like players.
But Bony can be compared to Llorente in so much as they were pivot targetmen. When signing Bony back there were loads of comments question his application and laziness. If we were to sign Llorente back in Jan I doubt you would get the same.
Scotland I suppose due to being a lone striker that lacked an element of pace can be put in the same breath as Trundle. Trundle was allowed to not chase defenders and lost causes - Scotland wasn't.
As for Sanches, the other player in our side that could be direct competition for the deep lying wide midfielder could be Clucas. I don't think anyone will ever label Clucas lazy. |
Yeah, there aren't any realistic comparisons for Bony or Scotland. They are most effective using their strength and skill in central areas, not chasing all over the pitch. I'm sure you understand that, I'm not sure most who call them lazy do.
Llorente was hit all over the shop with the lazy tag to start with. He also got the 'mercenary', 'billy big bollocks' and 'feet up for one last payday' treatment as well. Then he started scoring goals and everyone loved him. The same thing will happen to Bony if he starts scoring.
Trundle, in his first spell here, popped up all over the pitch in attacking positions. He didn't play like Scotland, although I get the connection with the strength, skill and finishing. He may not have been quicker, but he was more mobile. That's not a criticism of Scotland, it suited us for him to play exactly as he did.
There are only a handful of people calling Sanches lazy and they are getting shot down. | | | |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:08 - Sep 16 with 1706 views | E20Jack |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:01 - Sep 16 by jack247 |
Yeah, there aren't any realistic comparisons for Bony or Scotland. They are most effective using their strength and skill in central areas, not chasing all over the pitch. I'm sure you understand that, I'm not sure most who call them lazy do.
Llorente was hit all over the shop with the lazy tag to start with. He also got the 'mercenary', 'billy big bollocks' and 'feet up for one last payday' treatment as well. Then he started scoring goals and everyone loved him. The same thing will happen to Bony if he starts scoring.
Trundle, in his first spell here, popped up all over the pitch in attacking positions. He didn't play like Scotland, although I get the connection with the strength, skill and finishing. He may not have been quicker, but he was more mobile. That's not a criticism of Scotland, it suited us for him to play exactly as he did.
There are only a handful of people calling Sanches lazy and they are getting shot down. |
Llorente can be comparable to Bony. Neither chase their defenders all over the pitch, Llorente left that to Sigurdsson. Whether they are similar in their play doesn't really matter, the point at hand is their work eithic. Bony probably covers more ground than Llorente as he will also run with the ball - yet Bony will have a lazy tag attached to his legacy and Llorente wont.
Same goes for Trundle. Whether his playing abilities were different to Scotland isn't really the point, his work eithic and energy is what is being compared - which was similar to Scotland. Neither chased their defenders, neither chased lost causes, both scored bags of goals - yet only one got away with not putting dogged work in.
There are only a handful of people on here calling Sanches lazy maybe - but it certainly isn't a handful of people labelling him as lazy, I have heard and seen it many times, if you don't think he is slowly getting that reputation then we will never agree. This thread says it all. | |
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:20 - Sep 16 with 1692 views | jasfan |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 22:40 - Sep 16 by E20Jack |
Common sense has decided that overweight unfit Caucasian players really should not be used to balance out the castigating of fit and mobile black players. I am just obviously reiterating the most obvious of ground rules for comparison. Surely you aren't devoid of sense enough to understand that? |
Of course basing your correlation on data selected with subjective criteria such as mobility and or based on the recollection of different labels used to describe players and in addition, which ones were the more significant, is not exactly statistically sound, as I'm sure you would appreciate.
I wouldn't use those common sense examples you referred to either, but there were other players that were mentioned that you have dismissed that it could be argued did not fit the description of overweight and unfit. You chose to ignore them.
I think you have a point regarding the labelling of some players from a particular background, but I would have not have phrased it with the same degree of certainty that you chose to. It's sad that this still occurs. | | | |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:27 - Sep 16 with 1683 views | marchamjack |
He's clearly got something about him. Saw him v Wales in the semi last year, only Renaldo was better than him for them. But so far, not impressed at all really. Played better today, but still gives the ball away way more than us acceptable at this level. Only player I noticed who walked straight off today and didn't come over to us. Needs benching v Watford. Sure he'll come good though. |  |
| Oh,..Dave, what's occuring? |
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:29 - Sep 16 with 1676 views | jack247 |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:08 - Sep 16 by E20Jack |
Llorente can be comparable to Bony. Neither chase their defenders all over the pitch, Llorente left that to Sigurdsson. Whether they are similar in their play doesn't really matter, the point at hand is their work eithic. Bony probably covers more ground than Llorente as he will also run with the ball - yet Bony will have a lazy tag attached to his legacy and Llorente wont.
Same goes for Trundle. Whether his playing abilities were different to Scotland isn't really the point, his work eithic and energy is what is being compared - which was similar to Scotland. Neither chased their defenders, neither chased lost causes, both scored bags of goals - yet only one got away with not putting dogged work in.
There are only a handful of people on here calling Sanches lazy maybe - but it certainly isn't a handful of people labelling him as lazy, I have heard and seen it many times, if you don't think he is slowly getting that reputation then we will never agree. This thread says it all. |
The thread definitely says it all. It's one post calling him lazy, the rest sticking my up for him, then us disagreeing about subconscious racism.
Bony didn't leave us with the lazy tag, he picked that up at Man City and especially Stoke. If he gets anywhere near his first spell here, very few will consider him a lazy player. Likewise, if Llorente hadn't scored as many as he did last season, many would have seen him as lazy. His playing style would dictate that perception, whether it's true or not.
I thInk you're either remembering Trundle from his second spell here, or doing him a disservice to be honest. He put a lot of work in. Scotland, as far as I saw it, was under instructions not to drift far out of the central channel, Trundle had more freedom. | | | |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:30 - Sep 16 with 1675 views | E20Jack |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:20 - Sep 16 by jasfan |
Of course basing your correlation on data selected with subjective criteria such as mobility and or based on the recollection of different labels used to describe players and in addition, which ones were the more significant, is not exactly statistically sound, as I'm sure you would appreciate.
I wouldn't use those common sense examples you referred to either, but there were other players that were mentioned that you have dismissed that it could be argued did not fit the description of overweight and unfit. You chose to ignore them.
I think you have a point regarding the labelling of some players from a particular background, but I would have not have phrased it with the same degree of certainty that you chose to. It's sad that this still occurs. |
The subjective data is based on obvious relevance. comparing an overweight and unfit Caucasian player to a fit and agile black one is a little disingenuous. It is like calling Naomi Campbell fat - and then stating that Maradona is called fat too and passing them off as a balanced view.
You agree that players from certain ethnic backgrounds are labelled this way yet are nit picking over language? I am absolutely certain that this is the case, hence why my language is so. | |
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:32 - Sep 16 with 1671 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
We need to sell Ki
And get this sanshez guy in
Facking hell |  |
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:55 - Sep 16 with 1634 views | jasfan |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:30 - Sep 16 by E20Jack |
The subjective data is based on obvious relevance. comparing an overweight and unfit Caucasian player to a fit and agile black one is a little disingenuous. It is like calling Naomi Campbell fat - and then stating that Maradona is called fat too and passing them off as a balanced view.
You agree that players from certain ethnic backgrounds are labelled this way yet are nit picking over language? I am absolutely certain that this is the case, hence why my language is so. |
"The subjective data is based on obvious relevance. comparing an overweight and unfit Caucasian player to a fit and agile black one is a little disingenuous." I covered this in my second paragraph.
My contention, is that I wouldn't use a correlation based on subjective data and opinions, as the basis for certainty on how a black Andrea Pirlo would be labelled by Swans fans. Classy is the one I would use. | | | |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 00:08 - Sep 17 with 1607 views | E20Jack |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:55 - Sep 16 by jasfan |
"The subjective data is based on obvious relevance. comparing an overweight and unfit Caucasian player to a fit and agile black one is a little disingenuous." I covered this in my second paragraph.
My contention, is that I wouldn't use a correlation based on subjective data and opinions, as the basis for certainty on how a black Andrea Pirlo would be labelled by Swans fans. Classy is the one I would use. |
The opinion was not based on what someone would be labelled as. The opinion was based on what certain players ARE labelled as. What someone WOULD be labelled as is neither here nor there to the point in hand.
But I am glad you agree that there clearly is an issue. | |
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 00:18 - Sep 17 with 1595 views | longlostjack |
Bloody hell boys, life's too short. Great point today - sleep tight and don't let the bugs bite ! |  |
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 00:58 - Sep 17 with 1549 views | Loyal |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 19:29 - Sep 16 by E20Jack |
Who knows, certainly a pattern developing. |
Seriously ..... |  |
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 01:31 - Sep 17 with 1531 views | Banosswan |
Aaaaarrrrgggghhhhh |  |
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 02:13 - Sep 17 with 1505 views | DJack |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 21:46 - Sep 16 by jack247 |
Fair enough, I won't respond after this one. It's not like I have form for 20 page disagreements anyway.
Sanches has developed a very clear stereotype of non commital? You made that up. He has only played twice and the majority of comments about him have been positive.
Van der Gunn, Hernandez and Orlandi were all frequently labelled as lazy, certainly more so than Barrow or Emnes. You may choose not to remember that, you won't alter my opinion.
We have had plenty of black players that to my knowledge have never been accused of laziness. Dyer, Knight, Pratley (ok mixed race, but so was Jason Price). Funnily enough, they were the type of players that relied on pace and/or mobility. Unlike Bony and Scotland who relied on strength and technique. It's not because they are black, it's because some fans expect players to sprint around the pitch for 90 minutes. |
Hernandez was labelled a sick note and lightweight who would not get stuck in. Orlandi was labelled a powderpuff who would not get stuck in. Van der Gunn was labelled shit. Emnes and Barrow labelled shit or one trick pony. Andy was frequently labelled lazy/fat and he was such at times...and he was awesome at times.
Jase and Wilf have been labelled as "lazy" - it seems some of our fan-base aren't too happy with coloured strikers. Odd but there you go! Oh, and consider this, Jase played a whole season whilst carrying a groin strain and scored a shit-tonne of goals but he wasn't good enough for some of our fan-base. |  |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 02:49 - Sep 17 with 1494 views | E20Jack |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 23:29 - Sep 16 by jack247 |
The thread definitely says it all. It's one post calling him lazy, the rest sticking my up for him, then us disagreeing about subconscious racism.
Bony didn't leave us with the lazy tag, he picked that up at Man City and especially Stoke. If he gets anywhere near his first spell here, very few will consider him a lazy player. Likewise, if Llorente hadn't scored as many as he did last season, many would have seen him as lazy. His playing style would dictate that perception, whether it's true or not.
I thInk you're either remembering Trundle from his second spell here, or doing him a disservice to be honest. He put a lot of work in. Scotland, as far as I saw it, was under instructions not to drift far out of the central channel, Trundle had more freedom. |
This thread shows the mindset of many of our fans, if you think this thread is a solitary comment then again I believe you either to be disingenuous and incapable of holding your hands up or naive to a degree rarely seen. I hope its the latter.
Bony absolutely left us with the lazy tag, as did Scotland. How can a player be labelled lazy when he doesn't play? That is horrendously stupid to say he picked that tag up at Man City and Stoke. He was called lazy weeekly with us when we didnt win.
You are saying Llorente only escaped the lazy tag due to the amount of goals he scored? Which is also the same for Trundle yes? Then why did the goals Bony and Scotland score not save them? Funny that.
I most certainly am not remembering Trundle from his second spell here, in fact it is distinctly forgettable. He was never one to run and bust a gut off the ball harrying defenders and chasing lost causes, never. Yet that was fine. Again, funny that.
The poster above sums it up perfectly. Being called lazy from time to time is one thing, having a steroetype attached to your name is another completely. | |
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| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 05:32 - Sep 17 with 1621 views | Meraki |
| Renato Sanches - just walks and ambles around the pitch on 02:49 - Sep 17 by E20Jack |
This thread shows the mindset of many of our fans, if you think this thread is a solitary comment then again I believe you either to be disingenuous and incapable of holding your hands up or naive to a degree rarely seen. I hope its the latter.
Bony absolutely left us with the lazy tag, as did Scotland. How can a player be labelled lazy when he doesn't play? That is horrendously stupid to say he picked that tag up at Man City and Stoke. He was called lazy weeekly with us when we didnt win.
You are saying Llorente only escaped the lazy tag due to the amount of goals he scored? Which is also the same for Trundle yes? Then why did the goals Bony and Scotland score not save them? Funny that.
I most certainly am not remembering Trundle from his second spell here, in fact it is distinctly forgettable. He was never one to run and bust a gut off the ball harrying defenders and chasing lost causes, never. Yet that was fine. Again, funny that.
The poster above sums it up perfectly. Being called lazy from time to time is one thing, having a steroetype attached to your name is another completely. |
Which stand do you sit in? | | | |
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