| What are the finances like at RAFC? 12:39 - Oct 27 with 21911 views | A_Newby |
Using what limited information is publicly available, you can get an appreciation of the black hole in the finances of the Dale.
Since last season we have lost around £650,000 premier league solidarity money and the income from the EFL trophy and EFL cup. Last season the club was losing money even with this funding.
For this season we have kept the full premier league RINGFENCED funding for the academy (£600,000?) and a full EFL league 2 payment (£550,000?). Next season if we do not get promoted these will drop by 50% so the club would lose at least another £500,000 of funding.
I think the chairman in the fans’ forum made a point something like if we didn’t have to pay players’ wages then we might be able to break even.
In other words, if around 2,500 paying fans turned up around 30 times per year and spent money in the bars and on refreshments and sat in the stadium for 2-3 hours watching a well-maintained empty football pitch or maybe an amateur team playing then the club could possibly break even.
The reason why is simple, the costs now of maintaining the ground and hosting football at the stadium for 2,500 fans is greater than the match day income generated from these fans.
For example, just looking at the energy costs as outlined at the last fans’ forum. If the same amount of energy is used this year as last, the bill under the new price deal will rise from around £60,000 to over £200,000.
£200,000 per year with an average attendance of 2,500 gives an energy price of £80 per fan per season. So, if a season card holder pays £100 for their ticket, £20 would go in VAT and the remainder towards the energy bill. Before there are any funds from matchday income to pay towards a a football squad there are also other costs to pay such as business rates, the ground and pitch maintenance and match day security.
There are really only three ways to increase the matchday income, raise entrance prices, get fans to spend more in the ground and increase the number of supporters.
I am hoping that the club can at least renegotiate its energy prices.
I still think that season card prices are too low and have been ever since the Russ Green “experiment”. Next season whatever the outcome I would raise them by £30 across the board for all over 16-year-olds.
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 20:42 - Oct 30 with 2281 views | downunder |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 20:01 - Oct 29 by TalkingSutty |
It wasn't myself who raised that point, it was another poster. Agree with your post though. |
My apologies to Rodingdale  |  | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 20:57 - Oct 30 with 2237 views | 49thseason |
This link below, is an academic study into season ticket churn which makes some interesting points about why people do and don't renew their season tickets and what organisations can do about it.
Typically churn is about 20% of ST holders for a whole variety of reasons, understanding what is going on with the most loyal group of supporters is absolutely central to any ticket marketing plan. And here , I should point out, is where a good CRM system and people who know how to use one is absolutely vital... Up to my meeting with the club at the end of August, they didn't have one at the COA....
https://researchbank.swinburne.edu.au/file/ea7ab679-d025-4903-8ba0-a08c7a3c3dc7/
This is a long read but its worth the effort and should be mandatory for every Director and Manager at the Club. (and the Trust).
It suggests that clubs should do more to look after new ST holders to ensure their satisfaction.. access? Loyalty offers, merchandise discounts...etc. likelihood of churn is greatest in this group.
It also discusses the differences between POTD and ST holders
Possibly as much as 70% of the churn is because of an inability to get to games anymore, ... moved away, shift work disability, caring responsibilities,, etc.
The club has to invest some time and effort into those fans that have invested in the club, a special ST owners page on the web site? offers and discounts , special merchandise, loyalty rewards, special events....
A word of warning..
"However, at the extreme end of the membership scale (i.e., where
members have been with the club for over 25 years), churn rates jump as members
die or become too elderly to attend games..." |  | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:18 - Oct 30 with 2196 views | James1980 |
The way my shifts fall this season had it not been for the prize draw I might have gone for a Your Card and POTD
But that incentive got another ST on the books [Post edited 30 Oct 2023 21:20]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:25 - Oct 30 with 2186 views | mikehunt |
The best way to gauge interest in attending our games would be to make one Saturday match free entry. And I mean a decent game too. You could gauge the interest in the club that way. I’ve always said you could give tickets away and still no one would come.
If that is somewhat too much of a gamble perhaps a pay what you think day?
Other than paying people to come I can’t think of a better way to entice people into the ground. |  |
| The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance. |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:54 - Oct 30 with 2138 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:25 - Oct 30 by mikehunt |
The best way to gauge interest in attending our games would be to make one Saturday match free entry. And I mean a decent game too. You could gauge the interest in the club that way. I’ve always said you could give tickets away and still no one would come.
If that is somewhat too much of a gamble perhaps a pay what you think day?
Other than paying people to come I can’t think of a better way to entice people into the ground. |
I think making a Saturday match free entry would be a great success but it wouldn't be done properly at our club, there's always a stumbling block put in place. They will probably insist on those wishing to take up the offer attending prior to the day in order to pick up matchday tickets, or going on line to down load tickets. Just rocking up and going through the turnstiles on a first come first served basis would be too easy. Advertising something like this around the Town and on advertising boards weeks in advance would also be something that probably wouldn't happen. The details would just go on the club website and that would probably be that. If it's done properly it would be a big success, the first home game of the season would be ideal . The secret is to promote the game to death well in advance. |  | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:09 - Oct 30 with 2120 views | James1980 |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:54 - Oct 30 by TalkingSutty |
I think making a Saturday match free entry would be a great success but it wouldn't be done properly at our club, there's always a stumbling block put in place. They will probably insist on those wishing to take up the offer attending prior to the day in order to pick up matchday tickets, or going on line to down load tickets. Just rocking up and going through the turnstiles on a first come first served basis would be too easy. Advertising something like this around the Town and on advertising boards weeks in advance would also be something that probably wouldn't happen. The details would just go on the club website and that would probably be that. If it's done properly it would be a big success, the first home game of the season would be ideal . The secret is to promote the game to death well in advance. |
I think NL/EFL/PL rules prohibit fans just turning up without being 'registered' | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 23:10 - Oct 30 with 2056 views | nordenblue |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 21:54 - Oct 30 by TalkingSutty |
I think making a Saturday match free entry would be a great success but it wouldn't be done properly at our club, there's always a stumbling block put in place. They will probably insist on those wishing to take up the offer attending prior to the day in order to pick up matchday tickets, or going on line to down load tickets. Just rocking up and going through the turnstiles on a first come first served basis would be too easy. Advertising something like this around the Town and on advertising boards weeks in advance would also be something that probably wouldn't happen. The details would just go on the club website and that would probably be that. If it's done properly it would be a big success, the first home game of the season would be ideal . The secret is to promote the game to death well in advance. |
You could maybe do with asking folk to register their email for a "free ticket" that way youve then got some sort of connection with possible new fans, maybe initially a simple enquiry how they felt the matchday experience was, then an open net to flood with future promotions,offers etc...
That's naively using joined up thinking that the club actually keep fans email address etc, as a share holder I didn't even hear a thing about the last lot of issues I should have been voting on [Post edited 30 Oct 2023 23:28]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 00:27 - Oct 31 with 2013 views | mikehunt |
……. and we’d run out of food and drink and the club shop would be out of stock etc etc….
Sad that we’ve become so cynical. | |
| The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance. |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 03:04 - Oct 31 with 1962 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:09 - Oct 30 by James1980 |
I think NL/EFL/PL rules prohibit fans just turning up without being 'registered' |
So if somebody buys five tickets on line and gives four of them to his family members to attend the Boxing day game against Fylde , those four people shouldn't be entering the ground because they aren't registered? The person who purchased the tickets has broken the rules? Not everybody who enters a football ground needs to be registered, where has that information come from James.? [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 3:06]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 06:51 - Oct 31 with 1907 views | pioneer |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 23:10 - Oct 30 by nordenblue |
You could maybe do with asking folk to register their email for a "free ticket" that way youve then got some sort of connection with possible new fans, maybe initially a simple enquiry how they felt the matchday experience was, then an open net to flood with future promotions,offers etc...
That's naively using joined up thinking that the club actually keep fans email address etc, as a share holder I didn't even hear a thing about the last lot of issues I should have been voting on [Post edited 30 Oct 2023 23:28]
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That wasnt an e mail thing though….no shareholder was provided with any information other than the motion prior to the shareholder meeting. That was the boards tactic…and it worked. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:12 - Oct 31 with 1891 views | Rodingdale |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 22:09 - Oct 30 by James1980 |
I think NL/EFL/PL rules prohibit fans just turning up without being 'registered' |
That’s the spirit James, kill the idea at birth! A career in Dales Commercial Department surely awaits!
The board don’t need excuses for failing to engage with the people of the town.
By the way flyers and leaflets with QR codes is the way to go, minimal effort required, type in a few deets and free tickets delivered. Think of ways that will work, stop giving the board an excuse. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:23 - Oct 31 with 1873 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 23:10 - Oct 30 by nordenblue |
You could maybe do with asking folk to register their email for a "free ticket" that way youve then got some sort of connection with possible new fans, maybe initially a simple enquiry how they felt the matchday experience was, then an open net to flood with future promotions,offers etc...
That's naively using joined up thinking that the club actually keep fans email address etc, as a share holder I didn't even hear a thing about the last lot of issues I should have been voting on [Post edited 30 Oct 2023 23:28]
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No, as a shareholder i don't receive anything from the club, i know they have my details. I'm not the only one. I think even things like registering their emails first and going on line to receive a ticket is a unnecessary barrier, I understand the reasoning behind it though. Maybe start by identifying the games when away supporters can be housed in the TDS stand and then use the whole of the Willbutts Lane Stand as free entry on a first come first served basis..3500 free seats. Just rock up on the day. If demand exceeds capacity then the Sandy Lane could be used and the other stands. [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 7:25]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:32 - Oct 31 with 1856 views | Plattyswrinklynuts |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:23 - Oct 31 by TalkingSutty |
No, as a shareholder i don't receive anything from the club, i know they have my details. I'm not the only one. I think even things like registering their emails first and going on line to receive a ticket is a unnecessary barrier, I understand the reasoning behind it though. Maybe start by identifying the games when away supporters can be housed in the TDS stand and then use the whole of the Willbutts Lane Stand as free entry on a first come first served basis..3500 free seats. Just rock up on the day. If demand exceeds capacity then the Sandy Lane could be used and the other stands. [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 7:25]
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Looking at the fixtures after Xmas I don’t think there’s a single game where we’d have to open the Willbutts for away fans… |  | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 09:09 - Oct 31 with 1749 views | James1980 |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:12 - Oct 31 by Rodingdale |
That’s the spirit James, kill the idea at birth! A career in Dales Commercial Department surely awaits!
The board don’t need excuses for failing to engage with the people of the town.
By the way flyers and leaflets with QR codes is the way to go, minimal effort required, type in a few deets and free tickets delivered. Think of ways that will work, stop giving the board an excuse. |
That's a bit harsh, the club still have to adhere to NL rules and if spectators have to be on a system whether they are paying or getting in for free then the club has to follow those rules. | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:19 - Oct 31 with 1659 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 07:32 - Oct 31 by Plattyswrinklynuts |
Looking at the fixtures after Xmas I don’t think there’s a single game where we’d have to open the Willbutts for away fans… |
As a season ticket holder i wouldn't have a problem with the club using the whole of that stand as free entry to all home games for the rest of the season. When it's not being used for away fans it's going to be empty anyway. That would give the Club and the Trust a six month window of opportunity to really engage the Town and perhaps armchair supporters of other clubs to come up to the COA and watch live football for free. Really promote the offer and use the local radio stations, social media to get on board with it. If each person who takes up the offer spends £5 in the bars or purchasing food and merchandise it would be money that we wouldn't have had. Then before the end of the season announce the season ticket prices for the following season and hand out flyers at the turnstiles, I'm sure we could increase attendances if we did that.
Maybe the Trust could source somebody to print out posters to promote the free offer and fans could volunteer to drop them off in shops, pubs, supermarkets, etc around the area. In fact i think this is a project that the Trust and the members, fans should look at doing themselves rather than looking at the club to implement. First of all they need to secure the Willbutts Lane Stand for the remainder of the season and there has to be a realisation that this is a six month project and not a half arsed attempt by just targeting one game and not doing the necessary groundwork. A work party of maybe a dozen fans would be a good start to put plans in place, I would be up for helping. It would be a good project for the Trust and would engage the fan base and local community. Do the planning before Xmas and launch it in the new year when people are skint and would welcome any free offers. [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 14:57]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:40 - Oct 31 with 1633 views | A_Newby |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 03:04 - Oct 31 by TalkingSutty |
So if somebody buys five tickets on line and gives four of them to his family members to attend the Boxing day game against Fylde , those four people shouldn't be entering the ground because they aren't registered? The person who purchased the tickets has broken the rules? Not everybody who enters a football ground needs to be registered, where has that information come from James.? [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 3:06]
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I asked Chatgtp.
Here is the reply.
"As of my last knowledge update in January 2022, the English Football League (EFL) does not have a specific rule mandating that clubs must collect personal details of every fan attending a match. The collection of personal information by football clubs typically falls under data protection regulations and privacy laws, such as the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and the Data Protection Act 2018." | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:41 - Oct 31 with 1631 views | James1980 |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:19 - Oct 31 by TalkingSutty |
As a season ticket holder i wouldn't have a problem with the club using the whole of that stand as free entry to all home games for the rest of the season. When it's not being used for away fans it's going to be empty anyway. That would give the Club and the Trust a six month window of opportunity to really engage the Town and perhaps armchair supporters of other clubs to come up to the COA and watch live football for free. Really promote the offer and use the local radio stations, social media to get on board with it. If each person who takes up the offer spends £5 in the bars or purchasing food and merchandise it would be money that we wouldn't have had. Then before the end of the season announce the season ticket prices for the following season and hand out flyers at the turnstiles, I'm sure we could increase attendances if we did that.
Maybe the Trust could source somebody to print out posters to promote the free offer and fans could volunteer to drop them off in shops, pubs, supermarkets, etc around the area. In fact i think this is a project that the Trust and the members, fans should look at doing themselves rather than looking at the club to implement. First of all they need to secure the Willbutts Lane Stand for the remainder of the season and there has to be a realisation that this is a six month project and not a half arsed attempt by just targeting one game and not doing the necessary groundwork. A work party of maybe a dozen fans would be a good start to put plans in place, I would be up for helping. It would be a good project for the Trust and would engage the fan base and local community. Do the planning before Xmas and launch it in the new year when people are skint and would welcome any free offers. [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 14:57]
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Something the trust can propose at the meeting this week?
Excellent well thought out plan btw | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:42 - Oct 31 with 1630 views | D_Alien |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:19 - Oct 31 by TalkingSutty |
As a season ticket holder i wouldn't have a problem with the club using the whole of that stand as free entry to all home games for the rest of the season. When it's not being used for away fans it's going to be empty anyway. That would give the Club and the Trust a six month window of opportunity to really engage the Town and perhaps armchair supporters of other clubs to come up to the COA and watch live football for free. Really promote the offer and use the local radio stations, social media to get on board with it. If each person who takes up the offer spends £5 in the bars or purchasing food and merchandise it would be money that we wouldn't have had. Then before the end of the season announce the season ticket prices for the following season and hand out flyers at the turnstiles, I'm sure we could increase attendances if we did that.
Maybe the Trust could source somebody to print out posters to promote the free offer and fans could volunteer to drop them off in shops, pubs, supermarkets, etc around the area. In fact i think this is a project that the Trust and the members, fans should look at doing themselves rather than looking at the club to implement. First of all they need to secure the Willbutts Lane Stand for the remainder of the season and there has to be a realisation that this is a six month project and not a half arsed attempt by just targeting one game and not doing the necessary groundwork. A work party of maybe a dozen fans would be a good start to put plans in place, I would be up for helping. It would be a good project for the Trust and would engage the fan base and local community. Do the planning before Xmas and launch it in the new year when people are skint and would welcome any free offers. [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 14:57]
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If it were possible, hire local volunteers to act as stewards for the Willbutts only, to avoid extra costs
They could even have a "meet & greet" role to help newcomers feel at home in an unfamiliar stadium. Once trialled, could be a blueprint (what other colour!) for the entire stadium in the future
There was a former senior steward posting on here just a week or so ago, who might be ideal as an organiser for this type of initiative [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 10:44]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:57 - Oct 31 with 1602 views | 49thseason |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:19 - Oct 31 by TalkingSutty |
As a season ticket holder i wouldn't have a problem with the club using the whole of that stand as free entry to all home games for the rest of the season. When it's not being used for away fans it's going to be empty anyway. That would give the Club and the Trust a six month window of opportunity to really engage the Town and perhaps armchair supporters of other clubs to come up to the COA and watch live football for free. Really promote the offer and use the local radio stations, social media to get on board with it. If each person who takes up the offer spends £5 in the bars or purchasing food and merchandise it would be money that we wouldn't have had. Then before the end of the season announce the season ticket prices for the following season and hand out flyers at the turnstiles, I'm sure we could increase attendances if we did that.
Maybe the Trust could source somebody to print out posters to promote the free offer and fans could volunteer to drop them off in shops, pubs, supermarkets, etc around the area. In fact i think this is a project that the Trust and the members, fans should look at doing themselves rather than looking at the club to implement. First of all they need to secure the Willbutts Lane Stand for the remainder of the season and there has to be a realisation that this is a six month project and not a half arsed attempt by just targeting one game and not doing the necessary groundwork. A work party of maybe a dozen fans would be a good start to put plans in place, I would be up for helping. It would be a good project for the Trust and would engage the fan base and local community. Do the planning before Xmas and launch it in the new year when people are skint and would welcome any free offers. [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 14:57]
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There are a couple of caveats.. how many POTD sales would we lose? Probably not many as they probably stand or sit with mates, but its a consideration. What is the cost of opening the Willbuts including extra stewards, turnstile helpers, etc? And dont forget that the catering franchisee will take all the extra food and drinks cash.
Maybe there should be a £1 charge after 1 or 2 games then £2 , rising to £5 by the end of the season to see what the drop off rate is and test the price flexibility of people who turn up. The data resulting will be key so its imperative that we collect names and addresses, phone numbers and birthdate as well as emails. Once we have the data, its key that we create a relationship with the "new" supporters as quickly as possible, offering discounts at the shop, bar vouchers, newsletters, questionnairs etc.
I too am happy to pitch in if the Trust wants to build a plan for this | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 11:06 - Oct 31 with 1580 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:57 - Oct 31 by 49thseason |
There are a couple of caveats.. how many POTD sales would we lose? Probably not many as they probably stand or sit with mates, but its a consideration. What is the cost of opening the Willbuts including extra stewards, turnstile helpers, etc? And dont forget that the catering franchisee will take all the extra food and drinks cash.
Maybe there should be a £1 charge after 1 or 2 games then £2 , rising to £5 by the end of the season to see what the drop off rate is and test the price flexibility of people who turn up. The data resulting will be key so its imperative that we collect names and addresses, phone numbers and birthdate as well as emails. Once we have the data, its key that we create a relationship with the "new" supporters as quickly as possible, offering discounts at the shop, bar vouchers, newsletters, questionnairs etc.
I too am happy to pitch in if the Trust wants to build a plan for this |
They struggle to maintain a relationship with current supporters never mind new ones...i hear you though👍 | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:17 - Oct 31 with 1394 views | 49thseason |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 11:06 - Oct 31 by TalkingSutty |
They struggle to maintain a relationship with current supporters never mind new ones...i hear you though👍 |
Note that I wrote " we need to" not "they need to ".....I envisage the Trust running this effort in the early stages and therefore, can build a proper plan and not simply respond on the fly as problems crop up by bringing together a team of volunteers with a wide mixture of skills and availability.... the wisdom of crowds.. literally! | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:23 - Oct 31 with 1373 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:17 - Oct 31 by 49thseason |
Note that I wrote " we need to" not "they need to ".....I envisage the Trust running this effort in the early stages and therefore, can build a proper plan and not simply respond on the fly as problems crop up by bringing together a team of volunteers with a wide mixture of skills and availability.... the wisdom of crowds.. literally! |
Dependent on those in the Boardroom and in particular the Chairman accommodating the plan. I constantly question who owns this club, i was under the impression no individual does and as a result majority vote rules? | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:40 - Oct 31 with 1355 views | James1980 |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:23 - Oct 31 by TalkingSutty |
Dependent on those in the Boardroom and in particular the Chairman accommodating the plan. I constantly question who owns this club, i was under the impression no individual does and as a result majority vote rules? |
No harm in asking the question at the meeting this week. | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:47 - Oct 31 with 1345 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:40 - Oct 31 by James1980 |
No harm in asking the question at the meeting this week. |
Good idea James. | | | |
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