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Just a thought on this subject which is all over the news saying we are a disgrace and should do more to help -
Oxford English Dictionary definition of Refugee - "A person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster". So when a person flees their country for those reasons they are a refugee (and that is of course a terrible thing to happen to anyone and is yet another sad fact about humanity as a species). However, it could (and should) then be implied that once a 'refugee' passes through a 'safe' country then (s)he is no longer a refugee but a migrant, and most likely a migrant for economic reasons. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but all this rhetoric about taking in 'refugees' is completely misguided or a (deliberate?) misinterpretation of the facts IMO. If people wish to show their support for accommodating these people then that is of course their prerogative, but they should at least be clear that that they support accommodating 'economic migrants' as opposed to 'refugees' (although that would be far less sensationalist and may not suit their agenda).
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 12:44 - Sep 4 with 4309 views
Just out of interest, how many wars have you fought in and how often have you and your family had to live in a war zone? Personally, I don’t think I’d be that up for combat and I don’t think worrying every day about how I was going to find safety, food, water and shelter for my family, whilst witnessing death and destruction all around me would be that much of a lark either. I’d do what I could to get them to a safe, tolerant country.
A lot of posters on this board seem to come from Irish backgrounds — parents presumably economic migrants seeking a better life for them and their children — fair enough to me, and throw in the horrors of war and it should be obvious why after four years of war, people are desperate to leave the chaos of a failed state to seek some security.
I wouldn't say a wholly Irish background in my case but certainly my grandfather came over at some point - late 1890s or early 20th century I should think - but he was hardly a migrant of any description as it was all the same country wasn't it?
I suppose that Paul Parker was an economic migrant in that case.
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 12:47 - Sep 4 with 4297 views
This is an extremely complicated problem and, I believe, the start of continual mass migration for many years to come. Firstly, Europe has to help the plight of fellow human beings in desperate need and fleeing war. No argument - end of. BUT - it's going to need a complete rethink of our current European infrastructure. In the UK, we currently have a severe housing shortage, and many education authorities have no more school places (near me in Aylesbury, all places are taken meaning overflow pupils are bussed to High Wycombe on a daily basis!) Many Health Authorities and A&Es can't cope and councils struggle with their current budgets. So, trying to integrate hundreds of thousands of new people into our current European infrastructure, already at breaking point, will be a total nightmare. At the end of the 2nd World War, with hundreds of thousands returning (and no, I wasn't alive then, I just read my history!), the government of the day embarked on massive housebuilding (prefabs) and job creation schemes. I believe this will have to happen again now with tax rises to pay for new homes, schools and hospital buildings and public sector job creation to give people something to do eg railway station staff, bus conductors , road repair gangs, two posts per day government subsidised office jobs etc (you get the picture). This is the real challenge for Europe and one which politicians try to ignore. Sooner or later, I believe, this will have to happen.
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 12:48 - Sep 4 with 4296 views
I'm not sure how you can be so sure on that one, it's not black or white for me. Anyhow, however many people Saddam would have killed by now, a number which nobody can define, would have to go on your slate and people such as you will always reject that charge, so it's a pointless discussion for me.
It's estimated that over 500,000 Iraqis have been killed in conflict since the 2003 invasion. And no, we can't say how many people he might have killed by now, but the same is true of any country/dictator. I'm not saying he was a wonderful dictator, just pointing out what I often seem to hear and read, which is that people said that although life was often grim, they were at least safe if they kept their heads down. Not the case since 2003. The better of two evils.
Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 12:50 - Sep 4 with 4281 views
Just out of interest, how many wars have you fought in and how often have you and your family had to live in a war zone? Personally, I don’t think I’d be that up for combat and I don’t think worrying every day about how I was going to find safety, food, water and shelter for my family, whilst witnessing death and destruction all around me would be that much of a lark either. I’d do what I could to get them to a safe, tolerant country.
A lot of posters on this board seem to come from Irish backgrounds — parents presumably economic migrants seeking a better life for them and their children — fair enough to me, and throw in the horrors of war and it should be obvious why after four years of war, people are desperate to leave the chaos of a failed state to seek some security.
Yes Konk my parent were catholics from the north who were at that time treated as second class citizens in a highly corrupt state. They came to London in search of work and dignity and were initially met with no irish no dogs signs in windows. They worked ,educated their, kids never claimed a day of dole, and came to love London and its people even if the odd republican song was sang when fire water had been applied.
Who am i to judge these poor sods. Blair and co destabilised the whole region and there is now a proxy war between sunni and Shia raging. The things man do unto man eh - someone once said a recession comes along everytime everyopne has forgotten what happened in the last one - perhaps it is the same with wars.
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 12:57 - Sep 4 with 4246 views
Haven't read the whole thread & I don't know if interesting is the right word but MOST of the world let Africa suffer famine after famine over the last 30 years when all they needed was Financial Aid & food.
It,s only because these people are banging on the doors of Europe that they are getting our attention
Discuss
I know almost nothing about the Premier League even though I try to catch the big games every now and then at the end of the season. But I will say this, Queens Park Rangers is just a fukking sick ass team name. Just sounds so cool.
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 12:58 - Sep 4 with 4243 views
It's estimated that over 500,000 Iraqis have been killed in conflict since the 2003 invasion. And no, we can't say how many people he might have killed by now, but the same is true of any country/dictator. I'm not saying he was a wonderful dictator, just pointing out what I often seem to hear and read, which is that people said that although life was often grim, they were at least safe if they kept their heads down. Not the case since 2003. The better of two evils.
That's the 'better of two evils', one known and one unknown, and whilst you apportion blame for the 500,000 Iraqis killed since 2003, you aren't taking any blame for those who would have died anyway, however many that number might be, through exercising your preferred choice of inaction. It appears that Saddam was responsible for 600,000 civil executions in 24 years. Another half million or so died in the Iran-Iraq war? ISIS will do well to match that lot I should think.
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 12:58 - Sep 4 with 4238 views
We have spent £900 million from our foreign aid budget toward the camps that border Syria alone. We were the first country to reach the target of giving 0.7% of gross national income to foreign aid. Thats about £12 billion a year. I find this a shocking amount considering the state of our hospitals and schools and the way our old people are treated. We do our bit as a country and i for one am looking forward to the EU referendum when we can tell Cameron to stick the EU up his a rse.
I wouldn't say a wholly Irish background in my case but certainly my grandfather came over at some point - late 1890s or early 20th century I should think - but he was hardly a migrant of any description as it was all the same country wasn't it?
I suppose that Paul Parker was an economic migrant in that case.
Paul Parker was born in London, but I would imagine his parents were economic migrants, yeah.
Not in response to you here, El Hoop, but the economic migrant thing is doing my head in. Most white people in the US are economic migrants or descended from them, same for Canada, Australia, NZ, South Africa; people seeking a better life. I fully appreciate that we can’t accommodate everyone who might like to settle in the UK and that our infrastructure is at breaking point, but I also don’t understand why people wanting to migrate for economic reasons is seen in some quarters as something wrong and underhand. The immigrant parents of my friends worked their ar ses off and hammered home the importance of education — they didn’t leave everything behind to sit on their a rses in London, and in most cases their children are now either running their own businesses in the trades or in middle-class professions.
Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:08 - Sep 4 with 4169 views
Migrant/Refugee crisis on 12:57 - Sep 4 by Bushman
Haven't read the whole thread & I don't know if interesting is the right word but MOST of the world let Africa suffer famine after famine over the last 30 years when all they needed was Financial Aid & food.
It,s only because these people are banging on the doors of Europe that they are getting our attention
Discuss
The problem with those countries is/was you give the people food and money so they survive, then they all have about 5 kids, the population continues to go through the roof, and the same problem continues. You can't help people if they refuse to help themselves. I'm sure all this is the start of humanity heading to extinction soon. If only it would admit the problem and police its numbers everyone could be fine. Won't be pleasant for your grandchildren (not you personally, but generally) when it all comes to an end.
With regards Ex's post, what nonsense that not everyone should work and those of us that do work should pay for the upkeep of others. Why should the 'workers' support people who choose to add to the chaos by having so many children and cannot support them? (7 children. Jesus wept. Just plain wrong IMO).
We live in very dangerous times
[Post edited 4 Sep 2015 13:15]
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:08 - Sep 4 with 4171 views
Paul Parker was born in London, but I would imagine his parents were economic migrants, yeah.
Not in response to you here, El Hoop, but the economic migrant thing is doing my head in. Most white people in the US are economic migrants or descended from them, same for Canada, Australia, NZ, South Africa; people seeking a better life. I fully appreciate that we can’t accommodate everyone who might like to settle in the UK and that our infrastructure is at breaking point, but I also don’t understand why people wanting to migrate for economic reasons is seen in some quarters as something wrong and underhand. The immigrant parents of my friends worked their ar ses off and hammered home the importance of education — they didn’t leave everything behind to sit on their a rses in London, and in most cases their children are now either running their own businesses in the trades or in middle-class professions.
I meant Parker in the moving from one part of H & F to another sense, probably not very funny I'll admit.
I don't think that anyone much is entirely opposed to migration, but surely a little bit of 'who, what, where, when' wouldn't come amiss? In fact it's the lack of any planning up to now which has led to the attitude we're being shown up with.
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:12 - Sep 4 with 4156 views
Migrant/Refugee crisis on 12:36 - Sep 4 by BrianMcCarthy
The Irish government is making a big deal about accepting 600 refugees. 600. That's less than one coffin ship. This from a Country that millions, millions of refugees were forced to flee and who found peace and shelter on foreign shores. 600...
We've upped it to 1800 now. Still not enough.
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:12 - Sep 4 with 4154 views
That's the 'better of two evils', one known and one unknown, and whilst you apportion blame for the 500,000 Iraqis killed since 2003, you aren't taking any blame for those who would have died anyway, however many that number might be, through exercising your preferred choice of inaction. It appears that Saddam was responsible for 600,000 civil executions in 24 years. Another half million or so died in the Iran-Iraq war? ISIS will do well to match that lot I should think.
The only political march I’ve ever been on was the 2003 anti-war march — not because I didn’t want Saddam gone, but because I worried about what would inevitably follow — and without being any sort of ME expert or geo-political strategist, it panned out exactly as predicted; arguably worse. You can have your hypothetical future deaths under Saddam, but how many more deaths and years of insecurity will the people of Iraq have to endure before they have any sort of peace? It’s not looking likely in the foreseeable future is it? Under Saddam life might have been grim, but it had a functioning economy, stability and security of a sort.
Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:15 - Sep 4 with 4134 views
I meant Parker in the moving from one part of H & F to another sense, probably not very funny I'll admit.
I don't think that anyone much is entirely opposed to migration, but surely a little bit of 'who, what, where, when' wouldn't come amiss? In fact it's the lack of any planning up to now which has led to the attitude we're being shown up with.
Sorry - that Paul Parker gag went completely over my head!
Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:17 - Sep 4 with 4128 views
Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:08 - Sep 4 by Deano19766
The problem with those countries is/was you give the people food and money so they survive, then they all have about 5 kids, the population continues to go through the roof, and the same problem continues. You can't help people if they refuse to help themselves. I'm sure all this is the start of humanity heading to extinction soon. If only it would admit the problem and police its numbers everyone could be fine. Won't be pleasant for your grandchildren (not you personally, but generally) when it all comes to an end.
With regards Ex's post, what nonsense that not everyone should work and those of us that do work should pay for the upkeep of others. Why should the 'workers' support people who choose to add to the chaos by having so many children and cannot support them? (7 children. Jesus wept. Just plain wrong IMO).
We live in very dangerous times
[Post edited 4 Sep 2015 13:15]
You're trying to force your point about overpopulation but it's b0llocks. And here is why it's b0llocks.
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:22 - Sep 4 with 3515 views
i was / am a refugee. born in iran, but after the 1979 revolution, it became impossible for us to continue living there. so my uncle made arrangements for us to leave. we were incredibly fortunate to be invited to uk by thatcher government, and we flew out of tehran in 1980, stopping to change plane in germany, before flying onto heathrow. we were middle class in tehran; a very nice big house in a good neighbourhood. my mother never needed to work. my dad drove a mercedes, and all 7 children had education, food, comfort and security. this changed when khomeini turned a democracy into an islamic republic. my uncle taught international affairs at tehran university, a professor and deputy department head. he was seen as a threat to the new teachings, and we were given 3 days to leave. we had no time to sell anything, nor go to the bank to withdraw our savings and jewellery. we left with what we could, and we left behind 2000 years of family history. when we landed in heathrow, we had become poor, refugees. we had nothing but what we could put in suitcases.
hard work and focus means that today we run several successful businesses, and every day i give thanks for our situation.
these people arriving in europe arrive from different continents, from different wars. african migrants from war torn libya, egypt, central and east africa. asian migrants from syria, lebanon, afghanistan, iraq and even iran escaping civil war and isis.
the world has moved on in 35 years, but wars continue. what has changed is the sheer number of refugees / migrants / whatever term you wish to use, and the new fear that some, many, or all of these people might be terrorists. if you listen to (a very small minority of) people, you would think that everyone is jihad john, coming here to behead every white christian. the fact that the vast majority of these people are muslim doesn't help. 9/11 saw to that.
should europe take in these people? undoubtedly they should. but europe needs help processing and absorbing all these people. i would also like to see some of them rehoused in north america, usa & canada. and yes, there needs to be a fairer split of people across all of europe. the quotas of immigrants that were so popularly discussed at pmq's needs to be ignored, and we agree to take in say 1 million refugees. do we have the space for them? really, is that a serious question? they don't all have to live in london, birmingham or bradford or other main conurbations, but they need shelter, food, schooling and money. we have to look beyond the idea that everyone needs to work; there is enough money in the uk financial system to accommodate all these people. what is missing is the will to do so from nimbys and xenophobes.
time to wake up, britain, cameron, osborne and all; we are still part of europe, and the wider world. you saved me, now save others.
Thanks or providing some much needed perspective on what it means to be a refugee. Congratulations for making a good living in the UK. In my experience most of the migrants coming to the UK are desperate to make a decent life for themselves and their families.
Our government claims that we are playing a "leading role" in the crisis. Germany takes nearly 60,000 refugees in a year and we take 5,000 in 3 years. In total Germany has taken 800,000 while we ensure that 3-4,000 are left in squalor in France.
And then we have the nerve to claim that we are a tolerant nation.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:24 - Sep 4 with 3504 views
Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:17 - Sep 4 by BazzaInTheLoft
You're trying to force your point about overpopulation but it's b0llocks. And here is why it's b0llocks.
I've seen that before and I would retort by saying that it's complete b0llocks, but believe what you will.
And I'm not trying to force anything. I was replying to one post in particular about famine in Africa. Nothing more to say on the subject.
My original post was why call these people refugees when in reality are they not economic migrants when they depart a safe haven? My further point being that people calling them refugees have an agenda to push (be that left wing, socialist, liberal etc etc or whatever you want to call it) and if the media labelled them as the economic migrants that they are then mass public sympathy would drain away and there would be no crisis. Thus I believe the media and its commentators are guilty of not properly setting out the facts in this matter to enable people can make up their own minds about whether or not 'we' should be doing more (but no change there I guess)
[Post edited 4 Sep 2015 13:33]
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(No subject) (n/t) on 13:30 - Sep 4 with 3450 views
Would you agree that it is time a muslim country stood up and launched a ground attack on ISIS. Why has this not happened yet. I think Iraq are the only ones who have given it a go.
Also who is funding ISIS. I'm not sure but a lot of people are pointing the finger at the Saudis.
The middle east is really f**** up at the moment. So much potential wealth from oil and yet only probably 2% of the people get it.
Syria is getting all the attention and rightly so but there is trouble everywhere as far as I can see. Afghan, Pakistan, Iraq (isis have taken over tikrit) That country would be better off with sadamn still there. And then you've yemen. One branch of muslims are buthering the others. Is it the hootis been killed or are they doing the killing. I can't remember.
So how do you solve all of that. From what I can see pretty much all of the middle east needs asylum.
It's not what you've got; it's where you stick it.
Migrant/Refugee crisis on 11:53 - Sep 4 by toboboly
My comment is in regards to that if they stood up to IS etc then they wouldn't need to be refugees and the situation would be sorted. Their country wouldn't be so ruined and I imagine there would be less deaths than trying to flee over thousands of miles.
I agree with you that once they decide to leave the first safe country they enter they aren't refugees but migrants and what they are doing is illegal.
Firstly I live in Turkey and see so many Syrians here. Secondly they are so many women and children not your best fighting Isis material I think. Most importantly the west, including the UK disrupted a Middle East that admitted had it's troubles , the Despots are now replaced by Isis and a whole gang of other factions and warlords. The people have no choice but to flee.
The West had an ulterior motive and the whole thing has backfired and now it is up to the West to protect every displaced and endangered citizen in the region that require it . It is a moral obligation and the UK is now shamed and the world looks on while other nations take the lead..
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:34 - Sep 4 with 3431 views
Migrant/Refugee crisis on 12:36 - Sep 4 by BrianMcCarthy
The Irish government is making a big deal about accepting 600 refugees. 600. That's less than one coffin ship. This from a Country that millions, millions of refugees were forced to flee and who found peace and shelter on foreign shores. 600...
Me and the wife [ or the wife and I ] were talking about this last night. Almost laughable really, watching Mr Kenny on RTE news utter those ' reassuring words' of comfort and wisdom.600 refugees!! And north of the border, Mr McGuinness reckons he is the great saviour and Northern Ireland can accommodate 2,000 refugees, but kind of hasn't worked out how. Just goes to show how some nations have been totally blind to this ever increasing tragedy that falls before them.
There aint half been some clever bastards.
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:42 - Sep 4 with 3385 views
Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. He runs like a cheetah, his crosses couldn't be sweeter. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore.
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Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:54 - Sep 4 with 3309 views
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