| Peter Murphy For PM 11:18 - Sep 17 with 13566 views | exiled_dictator |
Peter who ....... ?
For those who don't know who Judge Peter Murphy is:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24119519
Yes, I am about to open a can of controversy, discussion & racist abuse.
As a practicing Muslim, I believe I have just about as much right as anyone else to comment on this issue, as if it doesn't already affect us, it soon will.
I am extremely grateful to this country for accepting our asylum back in 1980, as surely today none of my family would still be alive today otherwise. But, I also understand that although some parts of my culture are welcomed here, not all are. Nor should they be. I am grateful that I can eat Halal meat freely, as well as serving it freely in my restaurant. I don't expect that there is only Halal meat sold here and accept that some establishments will sell meats that I cannot eat, such as pig meat. This is fine, i don't eat there and don't tell you not to eat there.
Just as I am allowed to pray daily as I wish, celebrate my religion & its festivals freely without too much trouble generally. Occasionally, I have seen graffiti or heard racist comments made, but I tend to ignore these.
And my children can choose to have school lunches including vegetarian, Halal or just take their own food in without having to eat food that they don't want to.
Just as my wife and other female members of my family can choose to dress at they like including wearing jeans, high heels & a head or face covering. But this also means that if there are places that we go where head-wear including the nijab cannot be worn, then either she wouldn't wear one or we wouldn't go. Just to be clear, I don't ask or demand any fashion wear from my wife at all, but I know some Muslim men who do. The idea that any religion, including Islam, can be above the Civil Laws of the country, are crazy to me. Maybe in other countries (Saudi, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc), the laws are different, but we live in England and have to follow English laws. So if the law says that a woman cannot wear a nijab in court, then she must obey this. And it is a good thing that finally a judge has got the spine & balls to come out & say so, instead of making the majority conform to the minority. We should all celebrate all the festivals of this country, and not cancel Christmas because it might offend Muslims; this is such bull$hit, I find it embarrassing.
Peter Murphy For PM  |  |
| It's not what you've got; it's where you stick it. | | Poll: | Climate Change |
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 14:45 - Sep 17 with 4299 views | londonscottish |
In Scotland the church is formally separated from the state and has been so since the early part of the 20th century IIRC. In France and some other European counties there is also total separation.
In England there are still some tenuous links. The Church of England, for example, represents the official religion for state ocassions. But the church plays no part in setting and execution of policy.
So theses days in the UK/Europe we generally find it very odd when people suggest that the thinking of the church should have a primary role in setting the agenda of the state.
Go back many centuries and it was very different of course. [Post edited 17 Sep 2013 15:12]
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 14:54 - Sep 17 with 4271 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 14:37 - Sep 17 by Deano19766 |
Just a few things I thought I'd throw in -
1) Wasn't the state legal system once pretty much entirely based upon, and run by, the teachings of the Catholic church? Of course it has been eradicated by the shrinking religious numbers in this country these days, but even now you still swear on the bible when giving evidence, so religion still has a role in the state legal system unfortunately, albeit massively diminished.
2) Muslims are born naked, and once upon a time their ancestors would have walked around naked. What's all this sh!te about covering up from head to toe all about?
3) I'm fed up hearing about Muslims this and Muslims that. Get over yourselves. We are all born the same and we all go back the same. You are no different to the rest of us ATAF. If you want to follow Islam fine, but shut the fcuk up about it and get on with it yourself, just like the majority of people go about their own business. The same goes for Christians, jews, jehovas witnesses, etc etc, but who are far less vocal than muslims. WE DON't GIVE A FCUK SO GIVE OUR EARS A REST
4) Those who state religion is about control of the masses are correct. However, just because we are not religious does not mean we are not being controlled. The Illuminati have us all under their control!
This is in no way an attack on exiled dictator, whose post is very sensible. |
I disagree with everything between:
"Just a few things I thought I'd throw in - "
and
"This is in no way an attack on exiled dictator, whose post is very sensible." |  |
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 15:27 - Sep 17 with 4233 views | CanadaRanger |
Exiled_Dictator for PM!
(nice post) |  | | |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 15:54 - Sep 17 with 4207 views | DylanP |
Good post Exiled. Thanks for posting th elink and for your interesting perspective.
Some religion is about control. And other religion is just about people understanding their place in society and nurturing their own spiritual well-being, etc. As long as people are not trying to impose their beliefs on others, then religion is fine. I am not sure why people would feel the need to be so radically opposed. That is sort-of making secularism a type-of religious belief. People should be allowed to do what they want and believe what they want as long as they don't harm others. End of.
The question of face covering is a really tough one. On the one hand you want to respect other people's beliefs. On the other, covering from head to foot is hard to defend in a modern society. The Judge's decision here seems to strike a sensible balance between the rights of the individual and the rights of the society as a whole. Well done to the judge. |  |
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 16:23 - Sep 17 with 4187 views | timcocking |
I'd love to see veils banned everywhere over here.
Ps Bauhaus, quality. [Post edited 17 Sep 2013 16:24]
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 16:55 - Sep 17 with 4153 views | SpiritofGregory |
When in Rome do as the Romans do..
If people want to come here to change the heritage and customs of the country they can go back home. it's as simple as that - we've all had enough of people taking the pi$$. It really puzzles me when people come here from other countries initially because it's better than their own and then they try and change it to the societies they've left.
And before people start calling me names, boths my parents are foreign - I really feel for the English. I remember last Christmas when a shop keeper said happy Winter Fest, I told him under no uncertain terms was he to call it Winter Fest as it is Christmas and that he should respect the culture and traditions of the country and if not I would start calling festivals of his religion different names. The next day he said Merry Christmas. |  | | |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 16:57 - Sep 17 with 4154 views | loftboy |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 16:55 - Sep 17 by SpiritofGregory |
When in Rome do as the Romans do..
If people want to come here to change the heritage and customs of the country they can go back home. it's as simple as that - we've all had enough of people taking the pi$$. It really puzzles me when people come here from other countries initially because it's better than their own and then they try and change it to the societies they've left.
And before people start calling me names, boths my parents are foreign - I really feel for the English. I remember last Christmas when a shop keeper said happy Winter Fest, I told him under no uncertain terms was he to call it Winter Fest as it is Christmas and that he should respect the culture and traditions of the country and if not I would start calling festivals of his religion different names. The next day he said Merry Christmas. |
Pretty much spot on. |  |
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 17:21 - Sep 17 with 4138 views | wood_hoop |
Good post Exiled, not so sure just how many of your fellow Muslims would take such a reasonable view, or at least some of the those who seem to represent the 'Muslim Community' whenever a part of the Islam faith is challenged.
The laws we live under in this country have been defined by what is regarded as just and true, some may have come from an earlier Christian doctrine but they have been challenged and changed over the centuries as society itself has changed, many new laws are added every year but Sharia law is based on centuries old religious laws that cannot be challenged, no matter how irrational they seem in the 21st century.
Man maketh law, it is not not implemented by some mythical being from the past, until the Muslim faith is prepared to question and change some of its outdated laws then the conflict it finds itself in with so many others will not recede. |  | | |
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 17:32 - Sep 17 with 4129 views | BklynRanger |
Great post, Exiled. I actually thought at first that you'd cut and pasted it, such was the broadcast quality logic and reason of it all.
I hereby nominate you for the post of LFW's Chief Islamic Correspondent (though that may not be completely in line with the point of your post...:) |  | | |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 17:46 - Sep 17 with 4123 views | DylanP |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 16:55 - Sep 17 by SpiritofGregory |
When in Rome do as the Romans do..
If people want to come here to change the heritage and customs of the country they can go back home. it's as simple as that - we've all had enough of people taking the pi$$. It really puzzles me when people come here from other countries initially because it's better than their own and then they try and change it to the societies they've left.
And before people start calling me names, boths my parents are foreign - I really feel for the English. I remember last Christmas when a shop keeper said happy Winter Fest, I told him under no uncertain terms was he to call it Winter Fest as it is Christmas and that he should respect the culture and traditions of the country and if not I would start calling festivals of his religion different names. The next day he said Merry Christmas. |
Sorry, while I agree that people shouldn;t be able to force their culture on others, I don't really buy that. We are not talking about Rome. We are talking about England. All through English history, people have come and changed the existing culture. Whether it be the Vikings or the Normans or whoever. And English culture is much better for it. We wouldn't have the Notting Hill Carnival or Indian takeaways if it weren't for people coming from elsewhere and changing the English culture. Our flag is the flag of St George, who was an Armenian bloke. Our Queen is from an Austrian family. The Beatles and Rolling Stones both considered their music to be influenced by blues and Rock n Roll (both imports from the US). Christmas itself is heavily influenced by the Scandinavian traditions of St Nickolaus and let's not forget that Jesus himself was an Arab. The British museum is stuffed full of things from other cultures. It is hard to think of any aspect of English culture or heritiage that doesn't have some foreign influence. The important thing is that the cultural exchange is two way and voluntary. People shouldn't be able to force their culture or beliefs on other people. But there is no reason why people shouldn't enjoy the fun parts of the culture of their old country, while leaving the bad parts behind. After all, people don't flee political/economic opporession in another country because they think the food will be better in their new country. Likewise, English men who move to Qatar to work, don't suddenly start dressing in the Arab jalabeiya (the white one-piece dress that Arab men wear in the Gulf countries). They would look stupid if they did. | |
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 18:01 - Sep 17 with 4104 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 17:21 - Sep 17 by wood_hoop |
Good post Exiled, not so sure just how many of your fellow Muslims would take such a reasonable view, or at least some of the those who seem to represent the 'Muslim Community' whenever a part of the Islam faith is challenged.
The laws we live under in this country have been defined by what is regarded as just and true, some may have come from an earlier Christian doctrine but they have been challenged and changed over the centuries as society itself has changed, many new laws are added every year but Sharia law is based on centuries old religious laws that cannot be challenged, no matter how irrational they seem in the 21st century.
Man maketh law, it is not not implemented by some mythical being from the past, until the Muslim faith is prepared to question and change some of its outdated laws then the conflict it finds itself in with so many others will not recede. |
I agree with most of that, it's a very good post. I'm an atheist so most of that would appeal to my secular outlook on life.
I also think that recent right-wing christian fundamentalists in the U.S. could do with reminding that their laws are built on secularism, and not any God. |  |
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 19:47 - Sep 17 with 4054 views | Ranger78 |
Great post Exiled.
Of course women should not be allowed to cover there face in court.... that's just common sense, not racist.
To me, what you have said is just common sense and common decency. Surely as human beings, that's how we should all be? Respect each other and accept cultures are different.
Fair play to you for having the guts to say it however. I'm a white English man, so if I had made those points, it would not be as powerful. To read that from somebody like yourself who has real reason to have an opinion on the subject is very refreshing.
As for the post from HoveJim and the twitter rants of Anem Choudhry... they are both cut from the same cloth... brain dead, small minded, unhelpful outdated attitudes . Very sad! [Post edited 17 Sep 2013 20:05]
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 20:07 - Sep 17 with 4040 views | warwickhoop |
Stay on your own board.
You pitiful xenophobic rear end aperture . |  | | |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 20:23 - Sep 17 with 4023 views | Monahoop |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 17:46 - Sep 17 by DylanP |
Sorry, while I agree that people shouldn;t be able to force their culture on others, I don't really buy that. We are not talking about Rome. We are talking about England. All through English history, people have come and changed the existing culture. Whether it be the Vikings or the Normans or whoever. And English culture is much better for it. We wouldn't have the Notting Hill Carnival or Indian takeaways if it weren't for people coming from elsewhere and changing the English culture. Our flag is the flag of St George, who was an Armenian bloke. Our Queen is from an Austrian family. The Beatles and Rolling Stones both considered their music to be influenced by blues and Rock n Roll (both imports from the US). Christmas itself is heavily influenced by the Scandinavian traditions of St Nickolaus and let's not forget that Jesus himself was an Arab. The British museum is stuffed full of things from other cultures. It is hard to think of any aspect of English culture or heritiage that doesn't have some foreign influence. The important thing is that the cultural exchange is two way and voluntary. People shouldn't be able to force their culture or beliefs on other people. But there is no reason why people shouldn't enjoy the fun parts of the culture of their old country, while leaving the bad parts behind. After all, people don't flee political/economic opporession in another country because they think the food will be better in their new country. Likewise, English men who move to Qatar to work, don't suddenly start dressing in the Arab jalabeiya (the white one-piece dress that Arab men wear in the Gulf countries). They would look stupid if they did. |
Good post Dylan.
What exactly constitutes Englishness? The most mongrel race in Europe with an equally mongrel language. Yet many still show disrespect and suspicion to all those races and cultures which have helped to create such a race and it's varied customs it enjoys today. Weird really.
Oh and Father Christmas or St Nick was a Turk. |  |
| There aint half been some clever bastards. |
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 21:31 - Sep 17 with 3990 views | kensalriser |
Let's not forget that what we call Christmas is a traditional midwinter festival hijacked by a foreign culture from the Middle East. AKA Christianity. |  |
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 22:06 - Sep 17 with 3658 views | zicoshoops |
[Post edited 18 Sep 2013 4:09]
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 22:16 - Sep 17 with 3645 views | Brightonhoop |
Rubbish Dylan. Few are opposed to things which enhance our culture, like a decent Ruby Murray, or out on the lash for St Patricks night. The problem in this case is it is a fundamental element of Law within the confines of a court. A judge and Jury need to be able to see a defendents reaction to cross examination to determine whether a witness or defendent is reliable on the Stand. Alternatively we go backwards and use lie detectors and dispense with the elements of UK Law developed over centuries and return to the Stone Age.
What isn't acceptable is those that seek to ban the Burka etc completely as the French have done. It's akin to making non-muslim women go out naked, nice idea for us blokes but not very comfortable for the muslim woman and that should be respected. I think the Judge found a sound and respectful balance.
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 22:50 - Sep 17 with 3623 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 22:16 - Sep 17 by Brightonhoop |
Rubbish Dylan. Few are opposed to things which enhance our culture, like a decent Ruby Murray, or out on the lash for St Patricks night. The problem in this case is it is a fundamental element of Law within the confines of a court. A judge and Jury need to be able to see a defendents reaction to cross examination to determine whether a witness or defendent is reliable on the Stand. Alternatively we go backwards and use lie detectors and dispense with the elements of UK Law developed over centuries and return to the Stone Age.
What isn't acceptable is those that seek to ban the Burka etc completely as the French have done. It's akin to making non-muslim women go out naked, nice idea for us blokes but not very comfortable for the muslim woman and that should be respected. I think the Judge found a sound and respectful balance.
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Completely agree with that. | | | |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 23:12 - Sep 17 with 3606 views | rrrspricey |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 11:26 - Sep 17 by hoopstilidie |
And for an opposing view.
https://twitter.com/anjemchoudary
Personally on the whole veil topic I'd say just state that it can't be worn in the same places that you are expected not to wear a crash helmet. |
Couldn't agree more. I take it these veils are not allowed to be worn in banks etc? |  | | |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 23:13 - Sep 17 with 3605 views | TheBlob |
Judging by some of the munters you bump into on a daily basis I would make the veil selectively compulsory. |  |
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 23:26 - Sep 17 with 3592 views | loftboy |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 11:26 - Sep 17 by hoopstilidie |
And for an opposing view.
https://twitter.com/anjemchoudary
Personally on the whole veil topic I'd say just state that it can't be worn in the same places that you are expected not to wear a crash helmet. |
Just read his twitter feed, farking hell he's a nutter. | |
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| Peter Murphy For PM on 10:23 - Sep 18 with 3501 views | THEBUSH |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 14:45 - Sep 17 by londonscottish |
In Scotland the church is formally separated from the state and has been so since the early part of the 20th century IIRC. In France and some other European counties there is also total separation.
In England there are still some tenuous links. The Church of England, for example, represents the official religion for state ocassions. But the church plays no part in setting and execution of policy.
So theses days in the UK/Europe we generally find it very odd when people suggest that the thinking of the church should have a primary role in setting the agenda of the state.
Go back many centuries and it was very different of course. [Post edited 17 Sep 2013 15:12]
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Not exactly true, as there are 26 un-elected Bishops in the House of Lords.
Bishops in the
House of Lords
The Lords Spiritual
26 bishops of the Church of England sit in the House of Lords. Known as the Lords Spiritual, they read prayers at the start of each daily meeting and play a full and active role in the life and work of the Upper House. |  | | |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 14:23 - Sep 18 with 3455 views | timcocking |
| Peter Murphy For PM on 22:16 - Sep 17 by Brightonhoop |
Rubbish Dylan. Few are opposed to things which enhance our culture, like a decent Ruby Murray, or out on the lash for St Patricks night. The problem in this case is it is a fundamental element of Law within the confines of a court. A judge and Jury need to be able to see a defendents reaction to cross examination to determine whether a witness or defendent is reliable on the Stand. Alternatively we go backwards and use lie detectors and dispense with the elements of UK Law developed over centuries and return to the Stone Age.
What isn't acceptable is those that seek to ban the Burka etc completely as the French have done. It's akin to making non-muslim women go out naked, nice idea for us blokes but not very comfortable for the muslim woman and that should be respected. I think the Judge found a sound and respectful balance.
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Hmmm, i hear what you're saying re not banning the burka outright, but i must respectfully disagree. It is imo nowhere near the same as going out naked. The way i see it, nobody in their right mind would choose to voluntarily wear a robe covering their whole body and face unless they'd been pressured/brainwashed into doing so. There is no way on earth i'd want my daughter to be forced to go around covered up like that.
I try wherever possible to be open minded and tolerant, but i'll never ever accept the fact that women born to certain countries/faiths are forced/pressured into covering themselves from head to toe due to oppression by the men in charge of them. It is, quite frankly, a fcuking disgrace as far as i'm concerned and thank goodness i'm not unlucky enough to be born into an oppressive situation like that.
None of these women, if given the free choice, would want to dress like that, that's blatantly obvious. | | | |
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