| Mansion Tax 19:40 - Mar 28 with 9903 views | union_jack |
Not sure how much sympathy i will get here, but Labour's proposal of a mansion tax is a cheap shot IMO.
Have they not heard of 'asset rich, cash poor?' |  |
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| Mansion Tax on 17:25 - Mar 29 with 1069 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mansion Tax on 13:19 - Mar 29 by exiledclaseboy |
We're not going to agree on the Mansion Tax. I support it, you don't. No one will be left destitute by this and no one is going to be landed with a bill they can't afford to pay. I assume you will be affected by this hence your anger, that's understandable. I'm not affected by either this or the bedroom tax so maybe I'm more objective than you.
I completely agree with the first part of your second paragraph. |
How do you know no one will be left destitute or be landed with a bill they can't afford to pay?
Absolutely no details have been released as to how exactly it will work. On the other hand, lots of details have been released as to how it will be spent (about 10 times over at the last count).
I live in a part of London where many will be affected. George up the road from me for example, a fishmonger by trade - universally known even now as George The Fish - 96 years old, a veteran of D Day, who lived in his house for about 75 years - he bought it when he got married. Chris a few doors up the other way - a historian, lucky if he's made £20k a year writing obscure books about Middle Eastern politics - he is one of the world's leading experts on the subject, but 'the market' doesn't value that sort of knowledge. He was born is his house, about 70 odd years ago. His granddad was the head of quite a lot of the middle east when it was under British rule, hence his interest. Never had two pennies to rub together, but a true old gentleman in the real sense of the word.
Why on earth should either of those two gents pay for 'additional nurses for Scotland' or such? Where on earth are they going to get the money from? |  | | |
| Mansion Tax on 17:29 - Mar 29 with 1059 views | JackSomething |
| Mansion Tax on 17:25 - Mar 29 by londonlisa2001 |
How do you know no one will be left destitute or be landed with a bill they can't afford to pay?
Absolutely no details have been released as to how exactly it will work. On the other hand, lots of details have been released as to how it will be spent (about 10 times over at the last count).
I live in a part of London where many will be affected. George up the road from me for example, a fishmonger by trade - universally known even now as George The Fish - 96 years old, a veteran of D Day, who lived in his house for about 75 years - he bought it when he got married. Chris a few doors up the other way - a historian, lucky if he's made £20k a year writing obscure books about Middle Eastern politics - he is one of the world's leading experts on the subject, but 'the market' doesn't value that sort of knowledge. He was born is his house, about 70 odd years ago. His granddad was the head of quite a lot of the middle east when it was under British rule, hence his interest. Never had two pennies to rub together, but a true old gentleman in the real sense of the word.
Why on earth should either of those two gents pay for 'additional nurses for Scotland' or such? Where on earth are they going to get the money from? |
Just out of curiosity, were you this concerned when the changes to benefits already mentioned in this thread were brought in, hitting the least affluent?
Or are you only bothered now something is coming in which is going to hit those a bit higher up the socio-economic ladder? [Post edited 29 Mar 2015 17:30]
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| You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help. |
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| Mansion Tax on 17:30 - Mar 29 with 1055 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Mansion Tax on 17:25 - Mar 29 by londonlisa2001 |
How do you know no one will be left destitute or be landed with a bill they can't afford to pay?
Absolutely no details have been released as to how exactly it will work. On the other hand, lots of details have been released as to how it will be spent (about 10 times over at the last count).
I live in a part of London where many will be affected. George up the road from me for example, a fishmonger by trade - universally known even now as George The Fish - 96 years old, a veteran of D Day, who lived in his house for about 75 years - he bought it when he got married. Chris a few doors up the other way - a historian, lucky if he's made £20k a year writing obscure books about Middle Eastern politics - he is one of the world's leading experts on the subject, but 'the market' doesn't value that sort of knowledge. He was born is his house, about 70 odd years ago. His granddad was the head of quite a lot of the middle east when it was under British rule, hence his interest. Never had two pennies to rub together, but a true old gentleman in the real sense of the word.
Why on earth should either of those two gents pay for 'additional nurses for Scotland' or such? Where on earth are they going to get the money from? |
I know no one will be left destitute because anyone who can't afford the charge can defer payment until they sell the house or it will be taken from the estate at death. Next question? There are plenty of details out there if you care to look but you probably can't be arsed because you've just heard "Mansion Tax, Labour policy, politics of envy" blah blah and as a Tory supporter (yes I know you say you're not but you clearly lean more towards them than you do anyone else) you simply aren't interested in finding out the details.
Neither of those gentlemen (if they're not fictional) will be faced with a massive bill and have bailiffs knocking at their door. To suggest such is pathetic. |  |
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| Mansion Tax on 17:31 - Mar 29 with 1053 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mansion Tax on 17:17 - Mar 29 by exiledclaseboy |
You're wrong, it'll raise £1,2bn, I used the word symbolic to highlight the relative few it will affect. And even if it was purely and only symbolic and raised less than that, there's not necessarily anything wrong with something that shows that it's not just the non-well off who are being asked to drag the country of the hole we didn't create.
Oh and by the way "appealing to the simplistic" is just a silly thing to say. [Post edited 29 Mar 2015 17:19]
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will it?
How do you know? There are no details of how exactly it will work and how they are going to value houses for the purpose. The figures being bandied about are guesses.
And a lot of the people affected probably didn't create the hole either. And the ones that actually paid that amount for their houses rather than have ended up in valuable houses by chance, are already paying huge amounts in tax. And in stamp duty as well when they bought the houses. So how many times exactly do you want them to pay?
And the reason I use the phrase 'appealing to the simplistic' is because no one knows what it will raise and how it will work. So it can only be appealing to people at the 'tax the rich' level - that is simplistic by definition. | | | |
| Mansion Tax on 17:31 - Mar 29 with 1053 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Mansion Tax on 17:29 - Mar 29 by JackSomething |
Just out of curiosity, were you this concerned when the changes to benefits already mentioned in this thread were brought in, hitting the least affluent?
Or are you only bothered now something is coming in which is going to hit those a bit higher up the socio-economic ladder? [Post edited 29 Mar 2015 17:30]
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Of course not, not unless George and Chris are affected by the bedroom tax. | |
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| Mansion Tax on 17:33 - Mar 29 with 1038 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Mansion Tax on 17:31 - Mar 29 by londonlisa2001 |
will it?
How do you know? There are no details of how exactly it will work and how they are going to value houses for the purpose. The figures being bandied about are guesses.
And a lot of the people affected probably didn't create the hole either. And the ones that actually paid that amount for their houses rather than have ended up in valuable houses by chance, are already paying huge amounts in tax. And in stamp duty as well when they bought the houses. So how many times exactly do you want them to pay?
And the reason I use the phrase 'appealing to the simplistic' is because no one knows what it will raise and how it will work. So it can only be appealing to people at the 'tax the rich' level - that is simplistic by definition. |
Just because you haven't bothered researching any details you shouldn't assume everyone is as ignorant. No doubt more detail will become available in the coming weeks when manifestos are published. | |
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| Mansion Tax on 17:36 - Mar 29 with 1035 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mansion Tax on 17:29 - Mar 29 by JackSomething |
Just out of curiosity, were you this concerned when the changes to benefits already mentioned in this thread were brought in, hitting the least affluent?
Or are you only bothered now something is coming in which is going to hit those a bit higher up the socio-economic ladder? [Post edited 29 Mar 2015 17:30]
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Least affluent?
There is no definition whatsoever that could be used that would put either George or Christ in the 'affluent' category.
None.
In fact, I'd wager that they have less disposable income than a lot of people that would be described as being below the poverty line.
If you are asking if I agree with the so called 'bedroom tax' - no I don't. The problem is though that there is simply not enough social housing and it is an ill conceived way of trying to get people in social housing into the right 'size' house. Stupid, ill thought out, simplistic nonsense. Much like the 'mansion tax'. | | | |
| Mansion Tax on 17:37 - Mar 29 with 1032 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Mansion Tax on 17:36 - Mar 29 by londonlisa2001 |
Least affluent?
There is no definition whatsoever that could be used that would put either George or Christ in the 'affluent' category.
None.
In fact, I'd wager that they have less disposable income than a lot of people that would be described as being below the poverty line.
If you are asking if I agree with the so called 'bedroom tax' - no I don't. The problem is though that there is simply not enough social housing and it is an ill conceived way of trying to get people in social housing into the right 'size' house. Stupid, ill thought out, simplistic nonsense. Much like the 'mansion tax'. |
Well I agree with the last bit. Except the very last bit. | |
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| Mansion Tax on 17:41 - Mar 29 with 1021 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mansion Tax on 17:30 - Mar 29 by exiledclaseboy |
I know no one will be left destitute because anyone who can't afford the charge can defer payment until they sell the house or it will be taken from the estate at death. Next question? There are plenty of details out there if you care to look but you probably can't be arsed because you've just heard "Mansion Tax, Labour policy, politics of envy" blah blah and as a Tory supporter (yes I know you say you're not but you clearly lean more towards them than you do anyone else) you simply aren't interested in finding out the details.
Neither of those gentlemen (if they're not fictional) will be faced with a massive bill and have bailiffs knocking at their door. To suggest such is pathetic. |
No - that is just not right.
They haven't announced details of how it will work. There is rumour and supposition, but given that all parties other than the Conservatives have their own version of it, no one actually knows at the moment. As much as anything, they have no idea of how houses will be valued.
And I am not a Tory supporter - believe it, don't believe it, but I have voted both Labour and Lib Dem more often than I have voted Tory in my life. And I'm far more interested than you in finding out the details because I will probably have to pay it and you have already said you won't. But the details are actually not yet there other than in very vague terms.
And by the way Clasey - f*** off at the suggestion that I am making either George or Chris up. I don't see the same accusations being made if ever anyone suggests that they know someone affected by the bedroom tax so how f**king dare you. | | | |
| Mansion Tax on 17:44 - Mar 29 with 1018 views | JackSomething |
| Mansion Tax on 17:36 - Mar 29 by londonlisa2001 |
Least affluent?
There is no definition whatsoever that could be used that would put either George or Christ in the 'affluent' category.
None.
In fact, I'd wager that they have less disposable income than a lot of people that would be described as being below the poverty line.
If you are asking if I agree with the so called 'bedroom tax' - no I don't. The problem is though that there is simply not enough social housing and it is an ill conceived way of trying to get people in social housing into the right 'size' house. Stupid, ill thought out, simplistic nonsense. Much like the 'mansion tax'. |
Least affluent is just another way of saying most poor. No matter how little disposable income Chris and George may have, the average person living in Penlan for example would love to trade places with them, mansion tax or no mansion tax.
Like ECB, I do agree with most of what you've said there. | |
| You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help. |
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| Mansion Tax on 17:44 - Mar 29 with 1018 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mansion Tax on 17:37 - Mar 29 by exiledclaseboy |
Well I agree with the last bit. Except the very last bit. |
well I actually think policies should be fair whether they affect the so called 'poor' or the so called 'rich'. | | | |
| Mansion Tax on 17:46 - Mar 29 with 1016 views | JackSomething |
| Mansion Tax on 17:44 - Mar 29 by londonlisa2001 |
well I actually think policies should be fair whether they affect the so called 'poor' or the so called 'rich'. |
Indeed. Somebody should tell the current government that though. Not that I expect the other usual suspects to be much better. | |
| You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help. |
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| Mansion Tax on 17:47 - Mar 29 with 1014 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Mansion Tax on 17:41 - Mar 29 by londonlisa2001 |
No - that is just not right.
They haven't announced details of how it will work. There is rumour and supposition, but given that all parties other than the Conservatives have their own version of it, no one actually knows at the moment. As much as anything, they have no idea of how houses will be valued.
And I am not a Tory supporter - believe it, don't believe it, but I have voted both Labour and Lib Dem more often than I have voted Tory in my life. And I'm far more interested than you in finding out the details because I will probably have to pay it and you have already said you won't. But the details are actually not yet there other than in very vague terms.
And by the way Clasey - f*** off at the suggestion that I am making either George or Chris up. I don't see the same accusations being made if ever anyone suggests that they know someone affected by the bedroom tax so how f**king dare you. |
Please stop telling me I'm not right when all I've repeated here is details taken from the official Labour Party website. It's not my fault that you can't be arsed to do research and then get all uppity when someone points out your ignorance is your own fault They have announced some details. The ones I've put on here for a start so you're wrong again.
http://www.labour.org.uk/blog/entry/six-things-you-need-to-know-about-labours-ma
So you can apologise whenever and I'll apologise for the slight on George and Chris. I was trying to push your buttons and it seems to have worked. I've never seen you swear before though so now I feel vaguely guilty about getting you all het up. I'm sure we'll both get over it.
I remain convinced that your X will go next to a Tory name on 7 May though. That's up to you of course, but I don't see the sense in denying it when pretty much everything you post on here is Tory sympathetic. I'll do something if you will - My name is Andrew and on 7 May I'm likely to vote Labour for the first time since 1997. [Post edited 29 Mar 2015 17:51]
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| Mansion Tax on 17:50 - Mar 29 with 1007 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Mansion Tax on 17:44 - Mar 29 by londonlisa2001 |
well I actually think policies should be fair whether they affect the so called 'poor' or the so called 'rich'. |
Then you are probably always going to be disappointed. There will always be winners and losers. My priority would be to make sure that the losers are (where possible) those who are in a better position to deal with being so. That's probably why I'd rather pull out my toe nails with a pliers than every vote Tory, because it's the exact opposite of Conservative philosophy. | |
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| Mansion Tax on 18:01 - Mar 29 with 989 views | Darran |
| Mansion Tax on 17:41 - Mar 29 by londonlisa2001 |
No - that is just not right.
They haven't announced details of how it will work. There is rumour and supposition, but given that all parties other than the Conservatives have their own version of it, no one actually knows at the moment. As much as anything, they have no idea of how houses will be valued.
And I am not a Tory supporter - believe it, don't believe it, but I have voted both Labour and Lib Dem more often than I have voted Tory in my life. And I'm far more interested than you in finding out the details because I will probably have to pay it and you have already said you won't. But the details are actually not yet there other than in very vague terms.
And by the way Clasey - f*** off at the suggestion that I am making either George or Chris up. I don't see the same accusations being made if ever anyone suggests that they know someone affected by the bedroom tax so how f**king dare you. |
Ignore him Lis he's a knob. |  |
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| Mansion Tax on 18:02 - Mar 29 with 985 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mansion Tax on 17:47 - Mar 29 by exiledclaseboy |
Please stop telling me I'm not right when all I've repeated here is details taken from the official Labour Party website. It's not my fault that you can't be arsed to do research and then get all uppity when someone points out your ignorance is your own fault They have announced some details. The ones I've put on here for a start so you're wrong again.
http://www.labour.org.uk/blog/entry/six-things-you-need-to-know-about-labours-ma
So you can apologise whenever and I'll apologise for the slight on George and Chris. I was trying to push your buttons and it seems to have worked. I've never seen you swear before though so now I feel vaguely guilty about getting you all het up. I'm sure we'll both get over it.
I remain convinced that your X will go next to a Tory name on 7 May though. That's up to you of course, but I don't see the sense in denying it when pretty much everything you post on here is Tory sympathetic. I'll do something if you will - My name is Andrew and on 7 May I'm likely to vote Labour for the first time since 1997. [Post edited 29 Mar 2015 17:51]
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Yes I've seen that. Where does it say how it will be calculated or how properties will be valued?
It doesn't - it just says that properties between £2m-£3m will only have to suffer not more than £250 per month.
That's not detail and yet, they can categorically say that they will raise £1.2bn - it's nonsense, finger in the air type stuff. So I am arsed to do research - I just don't believe that 6 sentences of utter guff is 'detail'.
And very little of what I post on here is 'Tory sympathetic'. I can't stand Cameron - I think he is a slimy toad. I can't stand Grant Shapps even more - he is a patronising tosser. And I have only voted Tory once in my life - the last election. The two before that I voted Lib Dem and in 1997 Labour. Before that Lib Dem. How will I vote - no idea - I hate both of them equally. I am a natural Lib Dem voter, but Clegg is a tosser as well. At the moment, the only place that my X will go is against a sentence saying ' you are all utter crap'.
The only thing that I have in common with Tories (and it is less pro Tory and more anti Labour) is that I fail to see why ordinary people that have worked extremely hard to make a bit for themselves should be vilified.
And the reason that I get angry about it, is that I can see from the people that I live amongst, how few of them are the 'rich gits' that people despise so much. A few of them are, but not many. Our MP is Labour for example, as are our councillors. These aren't people like Cameron, these are ordinary people that happen to live in an area that through no fault of theirs, has ridiculous property prices. | | | |
| Mansion Tax on 18:11 - Mar 29 with 965 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mansion Tax on 17:44 - Mar 29 by JackSomething |
Least affluent is just another way of saying most poor. No matter how little disposable income Chris and George may have, the average person living in Penlan for example would love to trade places with them, mansion tax or no mansion tax.
Like ECB, I do agree with most of what you've said there. |
Why would the average person in Penlan trade places? These are people that have lived in their houses for 70 years plus. They are not wealthy. They just have houses that are worth money. They can't do anything about that or indeed with that. They are just living in a different city.
Now if you ask why the differential in property prices - well that is generations of policy that have put all wealth in one city - it's awful. But it's not the fault of the people that come from London anymore than it is the fault of people that live in Swansea. | | | |
| Mansion Tax on 18:17 - Mar 29 with 959 views | monmouth |
I'm keeping well out of this except to comment to JS. If people from Penlan could swap with George and Chris they would sell their houses, move back to Penlan and be VERY popular up the Penlan club.
Ok one other comment; I've always thought the council tax unfair for this very reason. Some sort of fairer property tax on the (inheritance) transfer of such a windfall asset is what's needed in my view, but I've never thought it through. |  |
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| Mansion Tax on 18:26 - Mar 29 with 952 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mansion Tax on 18:17 - Mar 29 by monmouth |
I'm keeping well out of this except to comment to JS. If people from Penlan could swap with George and Chris they would sell their houses, move back to Penlan and be VERY popular up the Penlan club.
Ok one other comment; I've always thought the council tax unfair for this very reason. Some sort of fairer property tax on the (inheritance) transfer of such a windfall asset is what's needed in my view, but I've never thought it through. |
They would indeed.
The problem is that both George and Chris have lived here for over 70 years and may feel a bit isolated in the Penlan Club. They may prefer to stay within touching distance of their home.
It's easy to sell up and move to release equity. What no one ever seems to consider is that would involve moving away from everything and everyone that they know. Most people would therefore regard it as an option that is only theoretical rather than practical which is why the property value is irrelevant. You can only ever realise it if you move to a cheaper part of the country and for most, that is impossible. | | | |
| Mansion Tax on 18:33 - Mar 29 with 943 views | monmouth |
| Mansion Tax on 18:26 - Mar 29 by londonlisa2001 |
They would indeed.
The problem is that both George and Chris have lived here for over 70 years and may feel a bit isolated in the Penlan Club. They may prefer to stay within touching distance of their home.
It's easy to sell up and move to release equity. What no one ever seems to consider is that would involve moving away from everything and everyone that they know. Most people would therefore regard it as an option that is only theoretical rather than practical which is why the property value is irrelevant. You can only ever realise it if you move to a cheaper part of the country and for most, that is impossible. |
Don't underestimate the Penlan Club as a night out though. Especially if they still do Allbright.
Edit, oh aye, how dull of me. It would have to be a tax on profit realisation wouldn't it. Something like...oh, I don't know...Capital Gains Tax. That'd be popular. [Post edited 29 Mar 2015 18:39]
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| Mansion Tax on 18:50 - Mar 29 with 921 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
| Mansion Tax on 17:25 - Mar 29 by karnataka |
Absolutely spot on.
A friend of ours is an extremely hard working girl and her husband has serious back problems and can't work. They'd lived in their council house for 27 years and their eldest son moved out when he got married around about the time the bedroom tax/spare room subsidy was brought in. Within 3 years, they were £2.5k in arrears with their rent because their rent subsidy had been cut due to this "spare room" which is actually very small. They were a week from eviction and we were fortunate enough to be able to pay their arrears for them so they could stay where they wanted to be. Fair? f*cking bollocks it's fair. It'll take them a long time to repay us and I don't care if they never do tbh but I'm just hoping someone gets in soon who will get rid of this petty, spiteful rule and if that means the balance will be partially redressed by tw4ts like Mylene Klass having to stump up a miniscule %age of their disproportionate wealth, then so much the better.
And if it sounds like I'm angry, yes, I am f*cking angry. [Post edited 29 Mar 2015 17:27]
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Fantastic post
And a big well done to you.
It's fair they say ... Seriously now , there's people out there that think it is & stick up for this appauling charge , tax . |  |
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| Mansion Tax on 18:54 - Mar 29 with 918 views | JackSomething |
| Mansion Tax on 18:11 - Mar 29 by londonlisa2001 |
Why would the average person in Penlan trade places? These are people that have lived in their houses for 70 years plus. They are not wealthy. They just have houses that are worth money. They can't do anything about that or indeed with that. They are just living in a different city.
Now if you ask why the differential in property prices - well that is generations of policy that have put all wealth in one city - it's awful. But it's not the fault of the people that come from London anymore than it is the fault of people that live in Swansea. |
Apologies, I should have been clear. I didn't mean literally trade places. More that I'm sure they'd rather have an expensive property (and possibly be taxed on it) to sell than live in social housing.
I'm not saying this is a good policy, but it's nothing compared to policies like the bedroom tax and Universal Credit. Many of us wonder why the government attacks the worst off in our society, but seeing the reaction to a policy targeting those higher up the food chain possibly gives us an answer. I imagine the Daily Mail will be apoplectic about this policy. [Post edited 29 Mar 2015 18:56]
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| You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help. |
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| Mansion Tax on 19:13 - Mar 29 with 906 views | waynekerr55 |
FAO Warwick
I wonder how the IPSOS MORI poll on "Is the bedroom tax a real tax" is shaping up? |  |
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| Mansion Tax on 19:48 - Mar 29 with 880 views | exiledclaseboy |
Good debate though. Most of the opposition coming from those who will be affected. Shame they don't speak up when they're not affected by something but that's human nature I suppose. | |
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| Mansion Tax on 19:58 - Mar 29 with 872 views | waynekerr55 |
| Mansion Tax on 19:48 - Mar 29 by exiledclaseboy |
Good debate though. Most of the opposition coming from those who will be affected. Shame they don't speak up when they're not affected by something but that's human nature I suppose. |
That's human nature though clasey. I've seen people say that they'll vote for party x as their policies will do y for them. That applies to people from all walks of life | |
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