| The last time 11:01 - Aug 5 with 9961 views | TheAlpineShrew |
Who were the last team we went behind against before coming back to win? |  | | |  |
| The last time on 13:13 - Aug 6 with 1443 views | jack247 |
| The last time on 12:50 - Aug 6 by E20Jack |
You have lost me in terms of relevance to the debate we were having that you then entered. They seem like completely different conversations passed off as the same.
Is Neymar worth £200m? Probably not. Is Pogba worth £100m? No.
I don’t think value paid has any affect on a players ability. Expectation levels maybe. But a good player is a good player regardless of transfer fee.
Clucas is a good player - as are the players above regardless if they are worth what was paid for them, not their problem. |
Is Clucas being a good player the only point you are trying to make? | | | |
| The last time on 13:13 - Aug 6 with 1440 views | E20Jack |
| The last time on 13:13 - Aug 6 by jack247 |
Is Clucas being a good player the only point you are trying to make? |
Where would you have thought otherwise? |  |
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| The last time on 13:32 - Aug 6 with 1420 views | jack247 |
| The last time on 13:13 - Aug 6 by E20Jack |
Where would you have thought otherwise? |
Partly because you’ve often stated that all your arguments are based on fact. That’s about as subjective as it gets.
Also because by Premier League standards (my opinion) he is bang average. If he was a good Premier League player we wouldn’t struggle to offload him for £8m | | | |
| The last time on 13:35 - Aug 6 with 1415 views | E20Jack |
| The last time on 13:32 - Aug 6 by jack247 |
Partly because you’ve often stated that all your arguments are based on fact. That’s about as subjective as it gets.
Also because by Premier League standards (my opinion) he is bang average. If he was a good Premier League player we wouldn’t struggle to offload him for £8m |
Eh? You are now losing me again.
Sounds like you are just wanting to argue the toss about literally anything.
I repeat. At what point prior to your entry did you think my point was anything other than he was a good player? | |
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| The last time on 13:44 - Aug 6 with 1400 views | jack247 |
| The last time on 13:35 - Aug 6 by E20Jack |
Eh? You are now losing me again.
Sounds like you are just wanting to argue the toss about literally anything.
I repeat. At what point prior to your entry did you think my point was anything other than he was a good player? |
I didn’t. I raised a different point which was very relevant to the conversation.
I just asked for clarity when you brought Neymar into it [Post edited 6 Aug 2018 13:44]
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| The last time on 13:46 - Aug 6 with 1394 views | E20Jack |
| The last time on 13:44 - Aug 6 by jack247 |
I didn’t. I raised a different point which was very relevant to the conversation.
I just asked for clarity when you brought Neymar into it [Post edited 6 Aug 2018 13:44]
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So now you agree you made a completely different point and nothing to do with what was being discussed then?
The Neymar point was to show that just because someone isn’t necessarily worth what was paid for them, doesn’t mean they are bad players which is what seemed like the thread was being morphed into in order to find some ground. | |
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| The last time on 13:50 - Aug 6 with 1387 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| The last time on 13:46 - Aug 6 by E20Jack |
So now you agree you made a completely different point and nothing to do with what was being discussed then?
The Neymar point was to show that just because someone isn’t necessarily worth what was paid for them, doesn’t mean they are bad players which is what seemed like the thread was being morphed into in order to find some ground. |
So are you now saying Clucas wasn't worth what we was paying for him?
I'm sure at the time you said it completely made "financial sense"? I know you'll come back saying he's held value, but as we have seen, he hasn't held as much as our Spanish import.
So what is it?
We paid over the odds - you agree
His value has halved - you made the point in your previous post
What is your point? You're saying 247 has lost you, I think you've lost it. Completely. |  | | |
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| The last time on 13:55 - Aug 6 with 1373 views | jack247 |
| The last time on 13:46 - Aug 6 by E20Jack |
So now you agree you made a completely different point and nothing to do with what was being discussed then?
The Neymar point was to show that just because someone isn’t necessarily worth what was paid for them, doesn’t mean they are bad players which is what seemed like the thread was being morphed into in order to find some ground. |
Why do you think it’s nothing to do with what’s being discussed?
It’s currently a 3 page thread. It wouldn’t have got that far if it stuck to ‘Clucas is a good player’, ‘No, he’s not’ etc.
Market value, particularly if it has changed dramatically in a year is relevant in this kind of discussion. Whether he is good compared to PL players is particularly relevant.
I’ll disagree with your opinion, assuming you are judging him against PL players. | | | |
| The last time on 13:55 - Aug 6 with 1372 views | E20Jack |
| The last time on 13:50 - Aug 6 by 34dfgdf54 |
So are you now saying Clucas wasn't worth what we was paying for him?
I'm sure at the time you said it completely made "financial sense"? I know you'll come back saying he's held value, but as we have seen, he hasn't held as much as our Spanish import.
So what is it?
We paid over the odds - you agree
His value has halved - you made the point in your previous post
What is your point? You're saying 247 has lost you, I think you've lost it. Completely. |
You disappeared after I asked for your Mesa link and what they reported as the Gylfi fee - I am guessing a vigerous google search came up empty then?
I don’t think I ever said he was worth what we paid did I? Only that he has more chance of retaining value than if we went foreign. Which is proven by the fact Mesa lost more of his % value if you wish to compare that specific example.
I am saying 247 has lost me because I was simply stating he is a good player and he joined in talking about transfer fees. It was a completely different conversation than the one he entered.
So what was your Mesa source then? | |
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| The last time on 13:58 - Aug 6 with 1364 views | E20Jack |
| The last time on 13:55 - Aug 6 by jack247 |
Why do you think it’s nothing to do with what’s being discussed?
It’s currently a 3 page thread. It wouldn’t have got that far if it stuck to ‘Clucas is a good player’, ‘No, he’s not’ etc.
Market value, particularly if it has changed dramatically in a year is relevant in this kind of discussion. Whether he is good compared to PL players is particularly relevant.
I’ll disagree with your opinion, assuming you are judging him against PL players. |
Well much of it was me telling you that you are missing the point of the discussion and have not understood it.
If you enter a debate about Adele’s album sales and then keep making a point about cornflakes gross profit, regardless of how many pages of people telling you that it is irrelevant - it still won’t make the debate about cornflakes. | |
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| The last time on 14:08 - Aug 6 with 1351 views | jack247 |
| The last time on 13:58 - Aug 6 by E20Jack |
Well much of it was me telling you that you are missing the point of the discussion and have not understood it.
If you enter a debate about Adele’s album sales and then keep making a point about cornflakes gross profit, regardless of how many pages of people telling you that it is irrelevant - it still won’t make the debate about cornflakes. |
Gylfi, Llorente, Neymar, Pogba, now Adelle and cornflakes.
Your point was about Clucas being a good player. Whether he is value for money isn’t an obtuse angle to look at that from. How he compares to PL players is very relevant, in fact it’s the best way to judge him.
Edit - it’s only you telling me it’s irrelevant [Post edited 6 Aug 2018 14:09]
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| The last time on 14:12 - Aug 6 with 1344 views | E20Jack |
| The last time on 14:08 - Aug 6 by jack247 |
Gylfi, Llorente, Neymar, Pogba, now Adelle and cornflakes.
Your point was about Clucas being a good player. Whether he is value for money isn’t an obtuse angle to look at that from. How he compares to PL players is very relevant, in fact it’s the best way to judge him.
Edit - it’s only you telling me it’s irrelevant [Post edited 6 Aug 2018 14:09]
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Exactly, all those had to be brought in to make it clear that you have misunderstood the initial point and are having a completely different conversation. You just didn’t seem to want to listen, and still don’t.
My point is that he is a good player yes, transfer fee is utterly irrelevant. If Bale was signed for £1 it wouldn’t change his ability. As I told you many posts ago, expectation levels maybe, but again - not the point I made - or even close to it.
Edit to reply to your edit - you are only replying to me. It is my point. I am the only one qualified to tell you what is irrelevant to the point I made. [Post edited 6 Aug 2018 14:19]
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| The last time on 14:16 - Aug 6 with 1340 views | karnataka |
| The last time on 23:11 - Aug 5 by stAteSwan |
First multiple goal game since Swans 4 West Ham 1 last season.
First Win in a competitive match since West Ham as well
First comeback from a deficit to win since the Arsenal game last year.
First Away Win since the Watford comeback in Carvahal's first match in charge. (Including the three FA Cup away matches last year) Also the last time we scored multiple goals away. |
The Arsenal game was earlier this year, not last year. |  | | |
| The last time on 14:20 - Aug 6 with 1336 views | jack247 |
| The last time on 14:12 - Aug 6 by E20Jack |
Exactly, all those had to be brought in to make it clear that you have misunderstood the initial point and are having a completely different conversation. You just didn’t seem to want to listen, and still don’t.
My point is that he is a good player yes, transfer fee is utterly irrelevant. If Bale was signed for £1 it wouldn’t change his ability. As I told you many posts ago, expectation levels maybe, but again - not the point I made - or even close to it.
Edit to reply to your edit - you are only replying to me. It is my point. I am the only one qualified to tell you what is irrelevant to the point I made. [Post edited 6 Aug 2018 14:19]
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Let me try another way as you’re being deliberately obtuse now.
What criteria do you use to deem him a ‘good’ player? | | | |
| The last time on 14:23 - Aug 6 with 1332 views | E20Jack |
| The last time on 14:20 - Aug 6 by jack247 |
Let me try another way as you’re being deliberately obtuse now.
What criteria do you use to deem him a ‘good’ player? |
Eh?
I make a point that Clucas is a good player. You clearly misunderstand the point and go off about a whole host of unrelated things, cemented by the question “so him being a good player is the only point you made then?” while then taking the debate into the childish gutter when you realised the answer.... now I am being obtuse?? Really?
My criteria on whether someone is a good player is what my eyes see. [Post edited 6 Aug 2018 14:24]
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| The last time on 14:29 - Aug 6 with 1327 views | jack247 |
| The last time on 14:23 - Aug 6 by E20Jack |
Eh?
I make a point that Clucas is a good player. You clearly misunderstand the point and go off about a whole host of unrelated things, cemented by the question “so him being a good player is the only point you made then?” while then taking the debate into the childish gutter when you realised the answer.... now I am being obtuse?? Really?
My criteria on whether someone is a good player is what my eyes see. [Post edited 6 Aug 2018 14:24]
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Childish gutter? You brought cornflakes into it.
I agree with your criteria. Disagree with your assessment. It seems lots of PL clubs do too.
I’d suggest how he compares to peers and how much demand there would be for good PL midfielders at £8m would also be fair metrics. | | | |
| The last time on 14:36 - Aug 6 with 1320 views | E20Jack |
| The last time on 14:29 - Aug 6 by jack247 |
Childish gutter? You brought cornflakes into it.
I agree with your criteria. Disagree with your assessment. It seems lots of PL clubs do too.
I’d suggest how he compares to peers and how much demand there would be for good PL midfielders at £8m would also be fair metrics. |
Yes after you realised my point was simple and that you had missed it as I told you many times over, instead of noting it you decided to make a silly quip.
Cornflakes was not childish at all, it was an off the wall example to show you that just because you hijack a thread to push a conversation into a direction irrelevant to the topic - it doesn’t mean that is then the subject of the topic.
You can suggest what you like. | |
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| The last time on 14:45 - Aug 6 with 1311 views | jack247 |
| The last time on 14:36 - Aug 6 by E20Jack |
Yes after you realised my point was simple and that you had missed it as I told you many times over, instead of noting it you decided to make a silly quip.
Cornflakes was not childish at all, it was an off the wall example to show you that just because you hijack a thread to push a conversation into a direction irrelevant to the topic - it doesn’t mean that is then the subject of the topic.
You can suggest what you like. |
I’m genuinely not sure what the silly quip was.
I’ll take it you don’t disagree with my metrics for judging players then. | | | |
| The last time on 14:54 - Aug 6 with 1308 views | E20Jack |
| The last time on 14:45 - Aug 6 by jack247 |
I’m genuinely not sure what the silly quip was.
I’ll take it you don’t disagree with my metrics for judging players then. |
Well after you realised. You changed a quote of mine and then pretended that you were within your rights to make up what my point was as a result - it really didn’t make much sense at the time, possibly even less so after reading it back. It was designed to be a silly deflective quip.
I don’t agree players can really be compared, no. Certainly not to make a judgement on ability over such a short sample size, far too many variables. It can be used as a way to add confirmation to what you see if you so wish, but as we see with players such as Kevin De Bruyne, Mo Salah, Fernando Torres (the examples are probably endless), judging players on meaningless comparisons rather than what you actually see isn’t always helpful. Many people saw Salah as an excellent player but couldn’t get in the Chelsea side because of incorrect comparisons based on a small sample size - turns out he was one of the best players too grace it. | |
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| The last time on 14:59 - Aug 6 with 1303 views | 34dfgdf54 |
On the other thread someone said there’s other PL Clubs interested in Clucas. Let’s see what we get. | | | |
| The last time on 15:09 - Aug 6 with 1298 views | jack247 |
| The last time on 14:54 - Aug 6 by E20Jack |
Well after you realised. You changed a quote of mine and then pretended that you were within your rights to make up what my point was as a result - it really didn’t make much sense at the time, possibly even less so after reading it back. It was designed to be a silly deflective quip.
I don’t agree players can really be compared, no. Certainly not to make a judgement on ability over such a short sample size, far too many variables. It can be used as a way to add confirmation to what you see if you so wish, but as we see with players such as Kevin De Bruyne, Mo Salah, Fernando Torres (the examples are probably endless), judging players on meaningless comparisons rather than what you actually see isn’t always helpful. Many people saw Salah as an excellent player but couldn’t get in the Chelsea side because of incorrect comparisons based on a small sample size - turns out he was one of the best players too grace it. |
If you don’t agree players can be compared, then it’s also very difficult to deem them good, bad or indifferent. A player is only ‘good’ compared to his peers. | | | |
| The last time on 15:14 - Aug 6 with 1289 views | jack247 |
| The last time on 14:59 - Aug 6 by 34dfgdf54 |
On the other thread someone said there’s other PL Clubs interested in Clucas. Let’s see what we get. |
Woods hopefully | | | |
| The last time on 15:14 - Aug 6 with 1289 views | E20Jack |
| The last time on 15:09 - Aug 6 by jack247 |
If you don’t agree players can be compared, then it’s also very difficult to deem them good, bad or indifferent. A player is only ‘good’ compared to his peers. |
Nonsense.
I said players can’t be compared over such a small sample size due to there being far too many variables. Kevin de Bruyne and Mo Salah were deemed not good enough for Chelsea after being compared to their peers. The fact is they were not part of a settled side that complimented their strengths, people could see their strengths with their eyes however. Far too many variables. | |
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| The last time on 15:22 - Aug 6 with 1281 views | jack247 |
| The last time on 15:14 - Aug 6 by E20Jack |
Nonsense.
I said players can’t be compared over such a small sample size due to there being far too many variables. Kevin de Bruyne and Mo Salah were deemed not good enough for Chelsea after being compared to their peers. The fact is they were not part of a settled side that complimented their strengths, people could see their strengths with their eyes however. Far too many variables. |
By deeming a player ‘good’ you are subconsciously comparing him to his peers. There is no debate about that. | | | |
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