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Just back from new York on overnight flight and all children should be on a separate plane, maybe attached and towed like a glider. One family tried to keep 3 kids aged between 6 months and 4 fed, entertained and quiet , they failed miserably :( Spending thousands flying kids long haul is insane and should be illegal.
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 15:59 - Apr 18 with 2964 views
Babies and toddlers on planes on 10:41 - Apr 18 by Deano19766
Tread carefully Bluce otherwise PunteR will be seeking a banning order from LFW towers!
IInteresting that PunteR says being a parent is hard work as if we should have some sympathy for a man who voluntarily chose to take on that hard work, and that we should have to share that burden with him. Also, apparently it's not a lifestyle choice. What is it then? Of course it's a lifestyle choice. Unbelievable stuff Jeff.
Mind you there have been some sensible blokes on this thread though who prove that my conclusions are not right in every instance. It has changed my point of view to some extent.
Anyway, onwards and upwards. Is it midday yet? Gagging for a beer. What else is one to do with all this spare time and disposable income eh?
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 11:56]
Yeah righto Deano.. I didnt like your constant slagging off of people with kids. I didnt think it was right. This is your post from another unrelated thread from the day before. Seems a bit of a coincidence you started going on about being on a plane as this was posted before MancR started his thread ..
" I do find people with kids to be among the most selfish I meet. It's all about them, not about their kids. Me, me, me, me. I'm so happy, I'm so proud, I'm so this, I'm so that. Then when you pull them up on it (the fact that it sounds quite like it's all about them) they get the hump and say it's not all about them at all. Even had one bloke on a plane get the hump when I got the hump with his brat crying, screaming and generally being a pain in the arse. He said he has to put up with it every day so the least I could do is put up with it for a few hours. What a selfish cant. It's not me who brought the brat into the world to boost my ego and save me from a life of boredom, it's not me inflicting the brat on other people who are trying to sleep, and it's not me disturbing everyones overnight flight. Just an observation. I may have a bit more respect for parents if they admitted that it really is all about them instead of pretending to be selfless martyrs acting out of the kindness of their hearts"
I think you've been bang out of order with things you've said,but I never tried getting you banned and i also said it wasn't worth it.. I was having a joke with Bluce and taking the mick but unfortunately i haven't got his same sharp wit and humor and just resorted to playground name calling which seemed to offend another poster, so i deleted it. I'm sure Bluce wasn't too offended as he gives as good as he gets . I hope he took it as the joke it was intended,if not ,Sorry fella if you read this.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to slag off parents and kids like you do Deano and its not just on this thread. I get it that messageboards are for venting off about whatever subject happens to be talked about at the time but you seem to be getting off on bad mouthing parents and children which is just plain weird. BTW I never asked for sympathy,i didnt ask for anything,especially from you. Regarding my lifestyle choice comment i actually said "it's not just some lifestyle choice"- "not just". Implying there's more to parenting than your glib comment about lifestyle choice. Anyway you're probably pissed as a fart by now so what do you care...
Again, sorry Bluce if i went over the top ,love your work man...
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 20:12]
Occasional providers of half decent House music.
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 16:49 - Apr 18 with 2887 views
Babies and toddlers on planes on 15:48 - Apr 18 by daveB
you put your kids through it so you can have a nice holiday together, perhaps under 8's won't remember everything about those experiences when they are older but the parents will and there is no point having kids if you are not going to enjoy experiences with them such as holidays.
I think a few on here have got some front moaning about kids making noise on a journey when you think about what we all get upto travelling by train to watch QPR making other passengers journeys a bloody nightmare with our drinking and singing.
that's a top point Dave. Football fans are loud (often very loud) offensive, p***ed up and singing get your t**** out for the lads type of people. They take whizzes on the street and leave an unholy mess of empty beer bottles, burger boxes lying around when they're gone.
For non football fans I'm sure they dread when Saturday comes.
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 17:02 - Apr 18 with 2872 views
Babies and toddlers on planes on 16:40 - Apr 18 by PunteR
Yeah righto Deano.. I didnt like your constant slagging off of people with kids. I didnt think it was right. This is your post from another unrelated thread from the day before. Seems a bit of a coincidence you started going on about being on a plane as this was posted before MancR started his thread ..
" I do find people with kids to be among the most selfish I meet. It's all about them, not about their kids. Me, me, me, me. I'm so happy, I'm so proud, I'm so this, I'm so that. Then when you pull them up on it (the fact that it sounds quite like it's all about them) they get the hump and say it's not all about them at all. Even had one bloke on a plane get the hump when I got the hump with his brat crying, screaming and generally being a pain in the arse. He said he has to put up with it every day so the least I could do is put up with it for a few hours. What a selfish cant. It's not me who brought the brat into the world to boost my ego and save me from a life of boredom, it's not me inflicting the brat on other people who are trying to sleep, and it's not me disturbing everyones overnight flight. Just an observation. I may have a bit more respect for parents if they admitted that it really is all about them instead of pretending to be selfless martyrs acting out of the kindness of their hearts"
I think you've been bang out of order with things you've said,but I never tried getting you banned and i also said it wasn't worth it.. I was having a joke with Bluce and taking the mick but unfortunately i haven't got his same sharp wit and humor and just resorted to playground name calling which seemed to offend another poster, so i deleted it. I'm sure Bluce wasn't too offended as he gives as good as he gets . I hope he took it as the joke it was intended,if not ,Sorry fella if you read this.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to slag off parents and kids like you do Deano and its not just on this thread. I get it that messageboards are for venting off about whatever subject happens to be talked about at the time but you seem to be getting off on bad mouthing parents and children which is just plain weird. BTW I never asked for sympathy,i didnt ask for anything,especially from you. Regarding my lifestyle choice comment i actually said "it's not just some lifestyle choice"- "not just". Implying there's more to parenting than your glib comment about lifestyle choice. Anyway you're probably pissed as a fart by now so what do you care...
Again, sorry Bluce if i went over the top ,love your work man...
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 20:12]
Just to clarify Punter, not to restart an argument as i feel much less strongly about all this than Deano does or you do about him, I wasn't offended and didn't say I was. Careful with the hypocrisy though, i genuinely couldn't see any difference between your generalization and Deano's.
In any case, a surprising number of people with children, and not just those who were w ankers in the first place, act as if those without children are dysfunctional. Their sense of diversity withers. Far be it from me to suggest that they may actually be a bit jealous of others' sleep, cash, freedom etc...
(I'm so bored of this thread, i wish i'd stop adding to it )
A magnificent football club, the love of our lives, finding a way to finally have its day in the sun.
Babies and toddlers on planes on 17:02 - Apr 18 by hopphoops
Just to clarify Punter, not to restart an argument as i feel much less strongly about all this than Deano does or you do about him, I wasn't offended and didn't say I was. Careful with the hypocrisy though, i genuinely couldn't see any difference between your generalization and Deano's.
In any case, a surprising number of people with children, and not just those who were w ankers in the first place, act as if those without children are dysfunctional. Their sense of diversity withers. Far be it from me to suggest that they may actually be a bit jealous of others' sleep, cash, freedom etc...
(I'm so bored of this thread, i wish i'd stop adding to it )
Generalisation? I thought i was quite specific with my accusations to Bluce.:)
I took it that you were offended as you seem to take what i said literally... Fair enough if you can't see the difference between my post and Deanos.
Occasional providers of half decent House music.
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 18:01 - Apr 18 with 2809 views
Babies and toddlers on planes on 14:34 - Apr 18 by BklynRanger
I'm just about the same. Putting aside the understandable stuff like ears popping and other physical discomforts, the rest seems to be based on the parenting.
I much prefer the realistic, good natured parent who will say 'leave that man alone' and call them back to the seat rather than the parent who thinks I'd like nothing more than to have that child running back and forth between me and its parents for half the flight. I was on two 16 hr flights between New York and Taiwan last month, and there was a kid in a basket thing 3 rows away both times. Hardly knew the kid was there on both occasions. Maybe the parents were lucky but I really respected the job they did there - so well done Taiwanese/Asian parents of the world (....he generalised...)
Anyway the child vs no child debate always seems to end up bringing out extreme opinions, some of which are on display here: No child extemists come across as angry, frustrated loons with a hint of psychosis; Child extremists come across as smug tvvats who think they're Mother Theresa just because they've got a kid. People need to get a grip, it's no more selfish to not have a kid than it is to have a kid.
In my experience it is unfortunately the Brits who have the worst behaved kids of any nationality, and therefore most likely to have the annoying little brats on your flight that continue to p1ss you off. But then that should not be a surprise, given the way that many British chavs behave abroad. When I am on holiday I am regularly embarrassed to be British by the behaviour of fellow Brits. I generally find that the behaviour of other nationalities kids is usually impeccable, but somehow many British parents seem to think that having children somehow entitles them to do what they like despite the impact on other people, and to be given more favourable treatment than to those without children. It also appears to me that these days even the youngest of children appear to have the biggest say in many family decisions, when I was a kid my parents made all the decisions until I was deemed old enough to have an input. That seems to be completely different now, from what I see.
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 18:09 - Apr 18 with 2803 views
Babies and toddlers on planes on 15:48 - Apr 18 by daveB
you put your kids through it so you can have a nice holiday together, perhaps under 8's won't remember everything about those experiences when they are older but the parents will and there is no point having kids if you are not going to enjoy experiences with them such as holidays.
I think a few on here have got some front moaning about kids making noise on a journey when you think about what we all get upto travelling by train to watch QPR making other passengers journeys a bloody nightmare with our drinking and singing.
Your last bit is 100% bang on . Many times have been pissed up on the train back with everyone singing and if you look around you can see the look of dread on normal passengers faces .
I have 3 kids and have never been on a plane with them mainly because we have holidays in the UK and also I think they're too young to travel especially as youngest is 5 months
On the flip side though if people want to take their kids on a plane and they cry then that's up to them don't really see an issue just have another beer or put some head phones on
Babies and toddlers on planes on 18:01 - Apr 18 by jonno
In my experience it is unfortunately the Brits who have the worst behaved kids of any nationality, and therefore most likely to have the annoying little brats on your flight that continue to p1ss you off. But then that should not be a surprise, given the way that many British chavs behave abroad. When I am on holiday I am regularly embarrassed to be British by the behaviour of fellow Brits. I generally find that the behaviour of other nationalities kids is usually impeccable, but somehow many British parents seem to think that having children somehow entitles them to do what they like despite the impact on other people, and to be given more favourable treatment than to those without children. It also appears to me that these days even the youngest of children appear to have the biggest say in many family decisions, when I was a kid my parents made all the decisions until I was deemed old enough to have an input. That seems to be completely different now, from what I see.
Actually I find the American parents worse, Jonno. They seem to specialise more in the "isn't my child an angel, how lucky you are to be blessed with their undivided attention" side of things, as opposed to the "fcuk off, he's only a kid and anyway we're on holiday" side of things. Maybe it's just based on what's around us.
As for the football supporter comparison that's being made, if you're disrupting a train with pissed up football nonsense you're a tvvat; if you're letting your kid do what they want and disturb people on a plane you're a tvvat.
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 19:15 - Apr 18 with 2745 views
We have two kids who are 2 and under. Some parents whether it be on a plane, train, restaurant etc will let little Johnny do what the hell he wants and either sit there pretending not to see it or thinking that their kids is really funny and that is absolutely wrong.
For the.most part parents will try and keep a lid on things and will prepare for such eventualities with Ipad,books toys etc but as others have said altitude cam play a part in a kid kicking off. As a parent you really don't want your kid to be the one who goes off but it may happen and you can only do your best and in the case of a plane you can't just take them outside like you would in a restaurant
We have taken our eldest on two flights once to Ireland and once to Mallorca both under 3 hour flights and she was brilliant up to now we wouldn't entertain the idea of taking her much further but as my brother and fellow R is emigrating to Canada at the end of the year it us possible we might have to take them earlier than we wanted to.
I would always try and nip anything in the bud or try to calm it as quickly as possible and if that didn't work id apologise to those closest to us that's all you can really
I have to say the worst flights I have experienced have involved Pi££ed up lads screeching women the fat bloke who overspills into your window seat and proceeds to snore like a jack hammer with a bit of darth Vader chucked in whilst your efforts of trying to wake said person leave you unable to go to the bog and lead to a sprint of Usain Bolt proportions to go like a camel when you hit arrivals.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 19:24]
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 19:25 - Apr 18 with 2733 views
Why this fixation with kids? By far my most sh*t flying experiences I have had, have involved pissed-up adults ( I use the term loosely) running amok on a plane , by comparison stuff involving under 5's is not in the same league!
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 20:11 - Apr 18 with 2681 views
Reasonable people 6 - 0 PunteR (and his ilk who provide no reasoning for anything whatsoever, and just showcase subjectivity at its worst). Are we reliving Easter Monday 86? An what a great day that was I have to say.
I can give you many many positives about not having kids (most of which don't involve a benefit to me personally at all - I actually care about things outside of my own life believe it or not). Can you do the same on your side of the fence PunteR? I doubt it, cos it really is actually all about you (if not then please feel free to enlarge).
And yes I shall open another can if you don't mind. My 12th of the day in fact (yes, I've been drinking slowly today). P!ssed and philosophising. It's all that spare time and disposable income you see. I really just don't know what else to do with it all
Look, let's just disagree and move on. You clearly don't like people disagreeing with your opinions, and you clearly can't demonstrate that you are not a self interested subjective individual, so let's just leave it there and get back to football I think. Cheers
The drugs don't work, they just make it worse by the way. Still great fun at the time though. You R's
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 20:35]
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 20:38 - Apr 18 with 2631 views
Babies and toddlers on planes on 20:11 - Apr 18 by Deano19766
Reasonable people 6 - 0 PunteR (and his ilk who provide no reasoning for anything whatsoever, and just showcase subjectivity at its worst). Are we reliving Easter Monday 86? An what a great day that was I have to say.
I can give you many many positives about not having kids (most of which don't involve a benefit to me personally at all - I actually care about things outside of my own life believe it or not). Can you do the same on your side of the fence PunteR? I doubt it, cos it really is actually all about you (if not then please feel free to enlarge).
And yes I shall open another can if you don't mind. My 12th of the day in fact (yes, I've been drinking slowly today). P!ssed and philosophising. It's all that spare time and disposable income you see. I really just don't know what else to do with it all
Look, let's just disagree and move on. You clearly don't like people disagreeing with your opinions, and you clearly can't demonstrate that you are not a self interested subjective individual, so let's just leave it there and get back to football I think. Cheers
The drugs don't work, they just make it worse by the way. Still great fun at the time though. You R's
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 20:35]
Deano, in terms of subjectivity I think it's fair to say that you have none.
Did you read my post or watch the video about autism and the impact that has? Perhaps I am just over sensitive given that my job had me working overseas and meant that I had to learn to manage the very challenging demands of autistic kids on long haul flights. The ignorant nonsense about being a bad or inconsiderate parent when a melt down happens is truly frustrating so sweeping nonsensical generalisation like this just adds to it.
Never knowingly understood
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 20:47 - Apr 18 with 2618 views
Babies and toddlers on planes on 20:38 - Apr 18 by danehoop
Deano, in terms of subjectivity I think it's fair to say that you have none.
Did you read my post or watch the video about autism and the impact that has? Perhaps I am just over sensitive given that my job had me working overseas and meant that I had to learn to manage the very challenging demands of autistic kids on long haul flights. The ignorant nonsense about being a bad or inconsiderate parent when a melt down happens is truly frustrating so sweeping nonsensical generalisation like this just adds to it.
No I didn't, and I have every sympathy in such circumstances (without qualification). As I think I have alluded to here, I don't blame the kids at all and I have every sympathy with parents who at least try. What I find amazing is the parents who think we should give them leeway and put up with their little angels just because they are parents, their kids are kids, and it's difficult innit. Unbelievable Jeff.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 20:48]
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 21:03 - Apr 18 with 2598 views
The point is, it's not just kids that Deano doesn't like, but humanity in general. He's been pretty open on that point.
He has started a number of threads stridently advocating a long-discredited doctrine - Malthusianism. In An Essay on the Principle of Population, (1798), Malthus argued that population would increase geometrically, while food production would only increase arithmetically. Malthus' predictions proved to be false. Malthusianism recieved a boost at the end of the 1960s with books like Paul Ehrlich's 'The Population Bomb'. The one-child policy in China, which could only be implemented in a police state, was launched on the basis of a Chinese translation of another Malthusian book, 'The Limits to Growth'.
For those interested I recommend an excellent recent book that savages Malthusianism (from a right-wing/free-market perspective) - Robert Zubrin's 'Merchants of Despair: Radical Environmentalists, Criminal Pseudo-Scientists, and the Fatal Cult of Antihumanism' (2012) http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/merchants-of-despair
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 21:37]
Air hostess clique
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 21:08 - Apr 18 with 2590 views
Babies and toddlers on planes on 21:03 - Apr 18 by TacticalR
The point is, it's not just kids that Deano doesn't like, but humanity in general. He's been pretty open on that point.
He has started a number of threads stridently advocating a long-discredited doctrine - Malthusianism. In An Essay on the Principle of Population, (1798), Malthus argued that population would increase geometrically, while food production would only increase arithmetically. Malthus' predictions proved to be false. Malthusianism recieved a boost at the end of the 1960s with books like Paul Ehrlich's 'The Population Bomb'. The one-child policy in China, which could only be implemented in a police state, was launched on the basis of a Chinese translation of another Malthusian book, 'The Limits to Growth'.
For those interested I recommend an excellent recent book that savages Malthusianism (from a right-wing/free-market perspective) - Robert Zubrin's 'Merchants of Despair: Radical Environmentalists, Criminal Pseudo-Scientists, and the Fatal Cult of Antihumanism' (2012) http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/merchants-of-despair
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 21:37]
Any tits, fanny, or rangers in it?
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 21:52 - Apr 18 with 2553 views
Babies and toddlers on planes on 21:08 - Apr 18 by BazzaInTheLoft
Any tits, fanny, or rangers in it?
Unfortunately not, but there is gambling:
------------------------------------------------------------------------- In its much-celebrated 1972 Limits to Growth manifesto, the Club of Rome predicted the near-term exhaustion of almost every major industrial resource. Among the reserves scheduled to run out were aluminum (by 2003), copper (by 1993), gold (by 1981), lead (by 1993), mercury (by 1985), molybdenum (by 2006), natural gas (by 1994), petroleum (by 1992), silver (by 1985), tin (by 1987), tungsten (by 2000), and zinc (by 1990). Manganese would be the next to go; it was scheduled to run out in the year 2018, followed by the platinum group metals in 2019.
Now, if these predictions had any relationship to reality, the price of all of these supposedly rapidly disappearing commodities would soar to astronomical levels by 1990, if not sooner. Economist Julian Simon found this idea so risible that in 1980 he issued a public challenge, as follows:
'This is a public offer to stake $10,000, in separate transactions of $1,000 or $100 each, on my belief that mineral resources (or food, or other commodities) will not rise in price. If you are prepared to pay me now the current market price for $1,000 or $100 worth of any mineral you name (or other raw material including grain and fossil fuels) that is not government controlled, I will agree to pay you the market price of the same amount of that raw material on any future date you now specify. Will the doomsayers, who now say that minerals and other raw materials will get more scarce, also put their money where their mouths are?'
Having drunk their own Kool-Aid, Malthusians Paul Ehrlich, John Holdren, and John Harte quickly announced that they would “accept Simon’s astonishing offer before other greedy people jump in.” Savoring his certain triumph in advance, Ehrlich commented “the lure of easy money can be irresistible.”
As the duelists being challenged, the Ehrlich-Holdren-Harte party was allowed to choose the items and the date that would settle the dispute. Accordingly, on September 29, 1980 they selected the key industrial metals copper, tin, nickel, chromium, and tungsten as the commodities in question, and September 29, 1990 as the settlement date.
Ten years came and went, and behold, on the day of settlement, every single one of the metals Ehrlich, Holdren, and Harte had selected had fallen in price. Especially noteworthy was tin, whose supply the Club of Rome had predicted would be completely exhausted by 1987, and which therefore should have skyrocketed to platinum-like prices by 1990. Instead, its price, which was $8.46 a pound in 1980, was down to $3.86 a decade later.
Utterly befuddled, the three geniuses (Ehrlich and Holdren have both been recognized with “Genius Awards” by the MacArthur Foundation, and one can only assume that their comrade in the venture, Harte, must be equally brilliant) paid up $576.07 to settle the wager. As Ehrlich griped that the result was anomalous, Simon offered to repeat the bet, this time for $20,000–but the geniuses demurred.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 21:55]
Air hostess clique
1
Babies and toddlers on planes on 22:23 - Apr 18 with 2524 views
Babies and toddlers on planes on 21:03 - Apr 18 by TacticalR
The point is, it's not just kids that Deano doesn't like, but humanity in general. He's been pretty open on that point.
He has started a number of threads stridently advocating a long-discredited doctrine - Malthusianism. In An Essay on the Principle of Population, (1798), Malthus argued that population would increase geometrically, while food production would only increase arithmetically. Malthus' predictions proved to be false. Malthusianism recieved a boost at the end of the 1960s with books like Paul Ehrlich's 'The Population Bomb'. The one-child policy in China, which could only be implemented in a police state, was launched on the basis of a Chinese translation of another Malthusian book, 'The Limits to Growth'.
For those interested I recommend an excellent recent book that savages Malthusianism (from a right-wing/free-market perspective) - Robert Zubrin's 'Merchants of Despair: Radical Environmentalists, Criminal Pseudo-Scientists, and the Fatal Cult of Antihumanism' (2012) http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/merchants-of-despair
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 21:37]
Absolutely correct and well observed sir. However, Malthusianism is based, yet again, on the subjectivity of the human being (i.e. it only considers the future of humanity). What I care about is the fact (and it is a fact) that the larger the human population the more the other flaura and fauna on this planet disappears.
I care a lot for animals, and firmly believe that they have a right to live here just as much as we do. I also believe that we have a responsibility to allow them to live and thrive. In light of that fact, my heart sinks when I see people absolutely pointlessly (IMO) producing more and more humans knowing the effect it will have on everything else that lives here. I just hope the children of today grow up to be less selfish and more environmentally and socially aware than the previous generations. Maybe then there will be some hope (if it's not too late already). I suspect they will have no choice but to be more aware in all honesty, thanks to the previous generations selfish and/or ignorant attitude. I would put it at the top of the national curriculum. Learning maths, english, economics, law and such like is great and I couldn't advocate it more, but it's not much use if the planet and life itself is on its knees..
That's my opinion and I am entitled to it. And it's not a subjective view as it affects me little personally at the end of the day as I shall be gone. However, if my banging on gets even one person to THINK (I'm not saying it will, but at least I'll die trying!), then as far as I am concerned it was worth being called all the names under the sun.
So my intentions are genuine and entirely honourable. I have reasons for my thought process. If people think that's wrong then I suppose they are entitled to that view just as I am entitled to mine. I would like to know why it is so wrong though!
Anyway, let's get back to the original topic of children on planes and how their parents should be done for child abuse for putting them through such a traumatic painful experience just to suit themselves.
Fcuk me I'm out of cider now. Waitrose is shut as well. Will have to raid the Rémy Martin Louis XIII in the smoking room
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 22:46]
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 22:33 - Apr 18 with 2508 views
Babies and toddlers on planes on 21:52 - Apr 18 by TacticalR
Unfortunately not, but there is gambling:
------------------------------------------------------------------------- In its much-celebrated 1972 Limits to Growth manifesto, the Club of Rome predicted the near-term exhaustion of almost every major industrial resource. Among the reserves scheduled to run out were aluminum (by 2003), copper (by 1993), gold (by 1981), lead (by 1993), mercury (by 1985), molybdenum (by 2006), natural gas (by 1994), petroleum (by 1992), silver (by 1985), tin (by 1987), tungsten (by 2000), and zinc (by 1990). Manganese would be the next to go; it was scheduled to run out in the year 2018, followed by the platinum group metals in 2019.
Now, if these predictions had any relationship to reality, the price of all of these supposedly rapidly disappearing commodities would soar to astronomical levels by 1990, if not sooner. Economist Julian Simon found this idea so risible that in 1980 he issued a public challenge, as follows:
'This is a public offer to stake $10,000, in separate transactions of $1,000 or $100 each, on my belief that mineral resources (or food, or other commodities) will not rise in price. If you are prepared to pay me now the current market price for $1,000 or $100 worth of any mineral you name (or other raw material including grain and fossil fuels) that is not government controlled, I will agree to pay you the market price of the same amount of that raw material on any future date you now specify. Will the doomsayers, who now say that minerals and other raw materials will get more scarce, also put their money where their mouths are?'
Having drunk their own Kool-Aid, Malthusians Paul Ehrlich, John Holdren, and John Harte quickly announced that they would “accept Simon’s astonishing offer before other greedy people jump in.” Savoring his certain triumph in advance, Ehrlich commented “the lure of easy money can be irresistible.”
As the duelists being challenged, the Ehrlich-Holdren-Harte party was allowed to choose the items and the date that would settle the dispute. Accordingly, on September 29, 1980 they selected the key industrial metals copper, tin, nickel, chromium, and tungsten as the commodities in question, and September 29, 1990 as the settlement date.
Ten years came and went, and behold, on the day of settlement, every single one of the metals Ehrlich, Holdren, and Harte had selected had fallen in price. Especially noteworthy was tin, whose supply the Club of Rome had predicted would be completely exhausted by 1987, and which therefore should have skyrocketed to platinum-like prices by 1990. Instead, its price, which was $8.46 a pound in 1980, was down to $3.86 a decade later.
Utterly befuddled, the three geniuses (Ehrlich and Holdren have both been recognized with “Genius Awards” by the MacArthur Foundation, and one can only assume that their comrade in the venture, Harte, must be equally brilliant) paid up $576.07 to settle the wager. As Ehrlich griped that the result was anomalous, Simon offered to repeat the bet, this time for $20,000–but the geniuses demurred.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 21:55]
Interesting stuff. I wonder what he did with the money?
I mentioned Hans Rosling to Deano before (wasn't interested). He basically says that birth rates are declining and the human population will plateau at 11 billion in 2100 without too much fuss.
Babies and toddlers on planes on 22:23 - Apr 18 by Deano19766
Absolutely correct and well observed sir. However, Malthusianism is based, yet again, on the subjectivity of the human being (i.e. it only considers the future of humanity). What I care about is the fact (and it is a fact) that the larger the human population the more the other flaura and fauna on this planet disappears.
I care a lot for animals, and firmly believe that they have a right to live here just as much as we do. I also believe that we have a responsibility to allow them to live and thrive. In light of that fact, my heart sinks when I see people absolutely pointlessly (IMO) producing more and more humans knowing the effect it will have on everything else that lives here. I just hope the children of today grow up to be less selfish and more environmentally and socially aware than the previous generations. Maybe then there will be some hope (if it's not too late already). I suspect they will have no choice but to be more aware in all honesty, thanks to the previous generations selfish and/or ignorant attitude. I would put it at the top of the national curriculum. Learning maths, english, economics, law and such like is great and I couldn't advocate it more, but it's not much use if the planet and life itself is on its knees..
That's my opinion and I am entitled to it. And it's not a subjective view as it affects me little personally at the end of the day as I shall be gone. However, if my banging on gets even one person to THINK (I'm not saying it will, but at least I'll die trying!), then as far as I am concerned it was worth being called all the names under the sun.
So my intentions are genuine and entirely honourable. I have reasons for my thought process. If people think that's wrong then I suppose they are entitled to that view just as I am entitled to mine. I would like to know why it is so wrong though!
Anyway, let's get back to the original topic of children on planes and how their parents should be done for child abuse for putting them through such a traumatic painful experience just to suit themselves.
Fcuk me I'm out of cider now. Waitrose is shut as well. Will have to raid the Rémy Martin Louis XIII in the smoking room
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 22:46]
That cider you're drinking was probably produced by industrialised farming methods including the use of pesticides, deforestation, and destruction of habitats.
We are all guilty, unless you live naked in a cave eating sustainable moss.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 22:37]
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 22:39 - Apr 18 with 2481 views
Babies and toddlers on planes on 22:33 - Apr 18 by BazzaInTheLoft
Interesting stuff. I wonder what he did with the money?
I mentioned Hans Rosling to Deano before (wasn't interested). He basically says that birth rates are declining and the human population will plateau at 11 billion in 2100 without too much fuss.
It is noted and I hope it's right, although I can't see much else being alive by the time we hit 11 billion. Other reports also say the one you cite is nonsense. So who really knows?
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Babies and toddlers on planes on 22:40 - Apr 18 with 2477 views
Babies and toddlers on planes on 22:36 - Apr 18 by BazzaInTheLoft
That cider you're drinking was probably produced by industrialised farming methods including the use of pesticides, deforestation, and destruction of habitats.
We are all guilty, unless you live naked in a cave eating sustainable moss.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2016 22:37]
Didn't Blair trip up over Weapons Of Moss Destruction?
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