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I know he scored a penalty, but other than that I thought he was awful. What a waste of money. Midfield is crying out for someone who can impose themselves on the game
Agree. Madsen is a free role 10. He does not have a defensive bone in his body. Has absolutely no positional sense, no instinct of where the ball will, does not track runners, and doesn’t put himself about. If he plays it has to be at 10.
Andersen is exactly the same. Can only play as a luxury 10.
You simply cannot play both together. Was. Obvious after Millwall when we were lucky not to lose. Today we were lucky we didn’t lose by more.
Playing both is compounded by asking Paal to invert (push higher and more central). When we lose the ball, he’s miles out of position, forcing Dunne to come across to the left, leaving Cook exposed in the middle, whilst Field is exposed ahead of him because our front 5 are all the wrong side of the ball. Gaps everywhere. Way too open.
As I said very early in the season, I’d play Field, Colback and Varane all in the middle to try to add some coagulant in there. I’d bin off this inverted fullback stuff; it is not working. And I’d ask Dembele, Chair and Frey to try to create. We have to become harder to beat and play through. Teams who don’t concede sometimes win. Teams who concede 2-3 every week tend to lose a lot. Build from the back.
What's interesting is he prefers playing as an number 8 but previous clubs tended to utilise him as a 10. Either way, he's definitely not a DM, and the system doesn't suit him or some of his teammates.
Certainly don't need Dembele or Saito back marking in the box at their heights, even combined.
FWIW I thought Madsen was fine today, think Santos and Andersen were the 2 big problems and then Smyth when he came on. I'll get pelters for this, bit on reflection, we were a bit unlucky weren't we? As opposed to really bad?
They're used to block runners. Certainly rather ineffectively against Millwall. Totally agree that they would be better keeping defenders occupied on the halfway line. A number of times Nardi looked for a quick release and had no available options.
Madsen isn’t ‘the’ problem in the side, but he is a big problem. I know some are taken by his ‘languid’ style and potential (if only we built our team around our Danish Dozzell upgrade) but he’s going to be crap more often than he’s good and we’ll continue to have the same conversations. That said…we are stuck with him so it is probably worth trying to fit in him somehow - not building a team around him but at least getting him playing in his optimal position.
The sad truth is the team is also rubbish more often than it’s good. I think we need to adjust our expectations. We’re not play-off contenders and we definitely shouldn’t be in relegation battle.
Hopefully something will click and well see improved performances across the team.
If we are going to play Saito, Demble, Frey as your front three then you need protection in the midfield , Madsen imo is a ten and shouldn’t be starting next to field Our midfield is so open at the moment it’s scary
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
Interesting tactical discussion - but on his individual merits I'll probably wait for a larger sample size than 5 matches before assassinating him personally
Madsen isn’t ‘the’ problem in the side, but he is a big problem. I know some are taken by his ‘languid’ style and potential (if only we built our team around our Danish Dozzell upgrade) but he’s going to be crap more often than he’s good and we’ll continue to have the same conversations. That said…we are stuck with him so it is probably worth trying to fit in him somehow - not building a team around him but at least getting him playing in his optimal position.
The sad truth is the team is also rubbish more often than it’s good. I think we need to adjust our expectations. We’re not play-off contenders and we definitely shouldn’t be in relegation battle.
Hopefully something will click and well see improved performances across the team.
[Post edited 2 Oct 9:18]
I mean who on earth seriously thought we were play off contenders? Based on what?
I mean who on earth seriously thought we were play off contenders? Based on what?
To be fair, Antti, Christian Nourry was making a point the other day of saying that our end of season run (can't remember over how many games he was talking about now) was top 5, so I guess its no surprise that an element of the fanbase have taken that fact and run to the other side of the world with it.
And to be fair to Nourry, he did then qualify what he said by talking about "ups and downs" after the announcement of the management team's contract extension. Unfortunately, not everyone within earshot is inclined to balance the two statements against one another objectively.
To be fair, Antti, Christian Nourry was making a point the other day of saying that our end of season run (can't remember over how many games he was talking about now) was top 5, so I guess its no surprise that an element of the fanbase have taken that fact and run to the other side of the world with it.
And to be fair to Nourry, he did then qualify what he said by talking about "ups and downs" after the announcement of the management team's contract extension. Unfortunately, not everyone within earshot is inclined to balance the two statements against one another objectively.
So you're saying we'll get promoted?
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Not me, Brian. I'm just saying its not a big surprise that certain parts of our fanbase think we should be thinking that when you get the man at the top focussing on our end of season run last season as essentially play-off form.
Clive said 13th is where we'll finish this season, and that seems to me to be what we should reasonably be expecting once we manage to work out exactly how we're trying to play.
I think this thread illustrates just like in politics the polarisation around what a central midfielder 8 should be. In one camp you have the Bryan Robson Jude Bellingham box to box all round midfielder who slides into tackles drives forward and arrives late in the box. In the other camp you have the midfield roaming playmaker, the Glenn Hoddle, Ray Wilkins, Barry Bannon's of this world that at best fill holes defensively but have the ability to see a pass or a play that can unlock a defence a few times a game. Madsen is in this camp. If that is what you want from an 8 (and that is where I come from) you have to set the team up to support that and work them space. Madsen has amazing technical ability, his passing is crisp, he can play a defence splitting ball, and from watching the warmups just like his pen his finishing is incredible compared to the others. But physically and defensively he is Matt Letissier
I can only remember Ale Faurlin having that blend of being able to win a ball and be a playmaker
The problem is not that we have individuals that are crap, the problem is we have too many conductors in the team at times Dembele, Madsen, Chair Anderson all want to be conductors ideally in my view you want 2 on the field at once we have often had 3. But you need the rest of the team to work to create the space for them to operate and then to get on the end of what the conductor is delivering.
To be fair, Antti, Christian Nourry was making a point the other day of saying that our end of season run (can't remember over how many games he was talking about now) was top 5, so I guess its no surprise that an element of the fanbase have taken that fact and run to the other side of the world with it.
And to be fair to Nourry, he did then qualify what he said by talking about "ups and downs" after the announcement of the management team's contract extension. Unfortunately, not everyone within earshot is inclined to balance the two statements against one another objectively.
It's not the maddest idea to think a team who finished last season so well should challenge for the playoffs, it's not that big a leap and there was a lot of optimism at the start of the season that we could challenge this year, I still think we could if we get our act together. This division really isn't that good
If we do end up bottom 6 relegation battle again then serious questions have to be asked considering how much we spent in the last window
Not me, Brian. I'm just saying its not a big surprise that certain parts of our fanbase think we should be thinking that when you get the man at the top focussing on our end of season run last season as essentially play-off form.
Clive said 13th is where we'll finish this season, and that seems to me to be what we should reasonably be expecting once we manage to work out exactly how we're trying to play.
Sorry man, I was just being Friday-flippant!
I'm happy to see how the team progresses for a while. I'm more interested in the off-the-pitch stuff at the moment.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
It's not the maddest idea to think a team who finished last season so well should challenge for the playoffs, it's not that big a leap and there was a lot of optimism at the start of the season that we could challenge this year, I still think we could if we get our act together. This division really isn't that good
If we do end up bottom 6 relegation battle again then serious questions have to be asked considering how much we spent in the last window
yeah, but i think almost every team in the league has 'play-off form' at some point in the season. You look at our last 6 games of the season and if you discount the dead rubber against a shot Cov side, we only really played well v Leeds.
Expectation is a huge issue. I was disappointed with the boos on Tue. Who were they booing? I get the last 20 mins were disappointing, and mistakes were made all round, but not one player out there, in my opinion, was coasting.
As usual, when things are really bad we get people saying 'i just want players who care' - but that's such fan bullsh!t. 'All' some fans want is to win every week. And don't say I'm exaggerating: every defeat we have is treated like the end of the world by a lot of fans.
yeah, but i think almost every team in the league has 'play-off form' at some point in the season. You look at our last 6 games of the season and if you discount the dead rubber against a shot Cov side, we only really played well v Leeds.
Expectation is a huge issue. I was disappointed with the boos on Tue. Who were they booing? I get the last 20 mins were disappointing, and mistakes were made all round, but not one player out there, in my opinion, was coasting.
As usual, when things are really bad we get people saying 'i just want players who care' - but that's such fan bullsh!t. 'All' some fans want is to win every week. And don't say I'm exaggerating: every defeat we have is treated like the end of the world by a lot of fans.
Well said, as usual, Antti. You only have to look at some of the other threads that have been started on here since Tuesday night to know that's true.
yeah, but i think almost every team in the league has 'play-off form' at some point in the season. You look at our last 6 games of the season and if you discount the dead rubber against a shot Cov side, we only really played well v Leeds.
Expectation is a huge issue. I was disappointed with the boos on Tue. Who were they booing? I get the last 20 mins were disappointing, and mistakes were made all round, but not one player out there, in my opinion, was coasting.
As usual, when things are really bad we get people saying 'i just want players who care' - but that's such fan bullsh!t. 'All' some fans want is to win every week. And don't say I'm exaggerating: every defeat we have is treated like the end of the world by a lot of fans.
Edit: I've scrapped my comment. No need for negative before a game. I will stop going on about Madsen.
Good, i see some on here are keeping the tradition alive of slagging off new signings after less than 10 games. Do you ever stop to think that moving to a new country, language, style of play, culture, etc, might mean we are not going to see an immediate top-level performance. They are human.
So far, in six weeks on here, various people (but usually the same group) have informed us that Celar is useless, Varane is useless, and this week, it is Madsen. Next week the experts will inform us that Saito and Dembele are useless, and MC should be sacked as he doesnt have a clue.
Madsen's one of those players where when things are going well people will rim him and talk about how he reminds them of Wilkins, Idiakez etc. Oh he always seems to have so much time on the ball. But his languid style means the second it's not going well he'll get hammered for not charging about enough. The difference in his performances between the two scenarios might be pretty negligble, but fans hate calm, composed, considered when the team is losing, if you're not charging about kicking people then you're not trying and you're part of the problem.
Madsen's one of those players where when things are going well people will rim him and talk about how he reminds them of Wilkins, Idiakez etc. Oh he always seems to have so much time on the ball. But his languid style means the second it's not going well he'll get hammered for not charging about enough. The difference in his performances between the two scenarios might be pretty negligble, but fans hate calm, composed, considered when the team is losing, if you're not charging about kicking people then you're not trying and you're part of the problem.
What you describe isn't Madsen. Can we not just have someone from the centre of the Madsen/Colback venn-diargram? Is that too much to ask?
yeah, but i think almost every team in the league has 'play-off form' at some point in the season. You look at our last 6 games of the season and if you discount the dead rubber against a shot Cov side, we only really played well v Leeds.
Expectation is a huge issue. I was disappointed with the boos on Tue. Who were they booing? I get the last 20 mins were disappointing, and mistakes were made all round, but not one player out there, in my opinion, was coasting.
As usual, when things are really bad we get people saying 'i just want players who care' - but that's such fan bullsh!t. 'All' some fans want is to win every week. And don't say I'm exaggerating: every defeat we have is treated like the end of the world by a lot of fans.
So what was your expectation for this season then? Our usual 16th or to battle bravely against relegation (again)?
Based on what Cifuentes achieved over the second half of last season and our form being then being close to play off form, a whole pre-season, offloading a lot of dead wood and plenty of signings it was more than reasonable to expect mid table as a minimum if not challenging the top ten.
Being bottom three at this stage is very poor and we deserve to be there based on performances. Plenty of time to turn it around but you cannot blame fans’ expectations for being higher.
So what was your expectation for this season then? Our usual 16th or to battle bravely against relegation (again)?
Based on what Cifuentes achieved over the second half of last season and our form being then being close to play off form, a whole pre-season, offloading a lot of dead wood and plenty of signings it was more than reasonable to expect mid table as a minimum if not challenging the top ten.
Being bottom three at this stage is very poor and we deserve to be there based on performances. Plenty of time to turn it around but you cannot blame fans’ expectations for being higher.
Let's be honest, though, Coventry City fans were probably saying exactly the same thing a couple of seasons ago when they were a long way adrift after a similar number of games and then ended up making the playoffs.
Not that I'm saying that will happen to us, but we're still at that stage of the season where three points shoots you halfway up the table.
Let's be honest, though, Coventry City fans were probably saying exactly the same thing a couple of seasons ago when they were a long way adrift after a similar number of games and then ended up making the playoffs.
Not that I'm saying that will happen to us, but we're still at that stage of the season where three points shoots you halfway up the table.
Coventry were adrift on points because of their pitch being ruined by the rugby 7's in the Commonwealth games during that summer and therefore couldn't play at home for nearly two months.
I'm afraid that our motley/scatter-brained assembled squad will never come remotely close to that excellent Coventry team of 22/23. I'll happily settle for fourth from bottom with this poorly assembled squad.
Coventry were adrift on points because of their pitch being ruined by the rugby 7's in the Commonwealth games during that summer and therefore couldn't play at home for nearly two months.
I'm afraid that our motley/scatter-brained assembled squad will never come remotely close to that excellent Coventry team of 22/23. I'll happily settle for fourth from bottom with this poorly assembled squad.
TBF to E15 Coventry have started the last three seasons really badly, and gone on to one play-off final, and one FA Cup semi that VAR cheated them out of.
I'm not saying that will happen to us but if you did want to be optimistic they're not a bad example. Their recruitment is what we're trying to emulate as well.
TBF to E15 Coventry have started the last three seasons really badly, and gone on to one play-off final, and one FA Cup semi that VAR cheated them out of.
I'm not saying that will happen to us but if you did want to be optimistic they're not a bad example. Their recruitment is what we're trying to emulate as well.
Brentford the same. They had a awful start, yet still made the playoff final a few years back.
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